Codec issue & video editing software HELP

[tarheelmommy]

For the things you plan on doing, the Canon S100 is fine. Software wise, I'd suggest iMovie 11. Don't make your life overly complicated.

Those Sony harddrive cams are known to be a #$%& with Macs, but when you check the Apple support forums the might be able to help you.

Grainy footage: Not enough light in the scene.
You lines in the footage come from interlaced footage. You can solve that by exporting as progressive (AFAIK, iMovie does it automatically).

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm looking at the Canon HFS30 vs the HFM41...not sure which way to go. Even though it's just footage of kids, I'm a perfectionist and I want it to be crisp.

I have spent a lot of time on the Apple Support forums as well as on the phone with mac and honestly I get so many conflicting answers it's hard to know what to think. I've been told to abandon the Sony b/c of the interlaced footage.

Are you talking about exporting through mpeg streamclip? If so, been there done that and the footage is still grainy. Tolerable on the TV once the DVD is made, but horrible on the computer. Footage looks great on my PC so I know it's the process of deinterlacing that is causing it. If it is not deinterlaced, there is no audio in imovie. I'm not willing to spend one more second trying to get the sony to work - I'm only willing to buy new programs or a new camera and start this process over. I have saved all of my files from the camera so thank goodness I still have the originals and can import into a new program. I'm thinking the Canons I listed above with Adobe premiere elmenets 10?

 

[cgbier]

Why do you want to go with Adobe? iMovie much less of a resource hog.

Your graininess comes from the fact that it was too dark when you were shooting, so the camera had to raise gain. You can solve that with a software called Neat Video to an extent.
When you shoot interlaced video, you'll have interlacing on your screen. The PC is de-interlacing your footage on the fly (but most likely throwing 50% of your image away).
Get a new camera and shoot in 1080p30, and interlacing is a thing of the past.

Any camera you mentioned will do fine. For darker scenes budget also an LCD light (can be had for less than $100)

 

[tarheelmommy]

Why do you want to go with Adobe? iMovie much less of a resource hog.

Your graininess comes from the fact that it was too dark when you were shooting, so the camera had to raise gain. You can solve that with a software called Neat Video to an extent.
When you shoot interlaced video, you'll have interlacing on your screen. The PC is de-interlacing your footage on the fly (but most likely throwing 50% of your image away).
Get a new camera and shoot in 1080p30, and interlacing is a thing of the past.

Any camera you mentioned will do fine. For darker scenes budget also an LCD light (can be had for less than $100)

I guess I was thinking that since Adobe supports the format that the Canon records in, that I won't lose any video quality by importing into imovie which will require AIC...am I wrong?

 

[WestSt]

So is the issue with the mac itself, or is the issue with imovie? The answer to this will dictate the solution for me...either way I'm getting a new camera (HD canon of some type) but...depending on if its the mac or the software I'll get new software or a PC. The footage of my child is extremely important to me.

Before getting a new camera, get trials for FCPX and Premiere, and see how they handle your video. If the video looks good on a pc, it should look good on a Mac - you just need to find the right solution. I struggled with some mpeg2 files for half a year before finding the best solution for my old camera. I ended up at last finding a combination of costum settings in Streamclip that won't show any noticable quality loss, after running every setting I could find in Streamclip, Compressor, Handbrake, etc... It should be possible for you as well!


IMO, since you're already planning on buying new software, you should try them out anyway. So why not get the trials and start out by testing how well it handles importing your video? Might save you the cost of a new camera, as the old one might be just fine with the right software to go with it. Unless you are looking for an excuse to get a shiny new thing, that is

 

[cgbier]

Adobe will transcode your footage also somewhen in the process (they just don't tell you). Working "natively" with AVCHD puts a lot of strain on your hardware, and you might run into problems with effects and transitions. AIC is much nicer to your system and your footage.

 

[mstrze]

You already have a Flip which will produce far-and-away better, crisper footage (720p HD ) than your current camera of choice (480i SD) which is giving you the grainy footage AND causing you to have to re-encode to even use the footage. It doesn't sound like you have even used any of this Flip video in iMovie to see how much better it is than your current camera?

Give it a shot, you can see all of your clips within iMovie within the iPhoto folder at the bottom. Even ones you may have already previously imported.

Instead of spending hundreds, potentially thousands of dollars on a new camera and additional software packages, go back and try to utilize what you already have. You are 'just' shooting shots of your kids, there is no need to get too extravagant. In fact, I would guess that a Flip or something similar will make for better movies, since it is less obtrusive than a bigger, bulkier camcorder and will get you much better candid shots.

Like I said, my kids are well documented with my Flip and now with the iPhone's HD camera functions. My older tape-based camcorder is in a drawer somewhere. You seem to be wanting to make this more difficult than it needs to be. :/

 

[tarheelmommy]

You already have a Flip which will produce far-and-away better, crisper footage (720p HD ) than your current camera of choice (480i SD) which is giving you the grainy footage AND causing you to have to re-encode to even use the footage. It doesn't sound like you have even used any of this Flip video in iMovie to see how much better it is than your current camera?

Give it a shot, you can see all of your clips within iMovie within the iPhoto folder at the bottom. Even ones you may have already previously imported.

Instead of spending hundreds, potentially thousands of dollars on a new camera and additional software packages, go back and try to utilize what you already have. You are 'just' shooting shots of your kids, there is no need to get too extravagant. In fact, I would guess that a Flip or something similar will make for better movies, since it is less obtrusive than a bigger, bulkier camcorder and will get you much better candid shots.

Like I said, my kids are well documented with my Flip and now with the iPhone's HD camera functions. My older tape-based camcorder is in a drawer somewhere. You seem to be wanting to make this more difficult than it needs to be. :/

Sorry but my flip is horrible. I really hate it. Sure it works with imovie but the quality of the original footage is only okay to me. The controls on it are annoying and I hate how tiny it is. I'm willing to buy a nearly professional grade camera b/c while it's just footage of my kids, it's the most important footage to me. I don't do much editing because I like to keep every second documented. I spend hours making photo books and video dvds of them, it's a hobby, and I find it hard to believe that our powerhouse mac can't edit video without turning the video quality to mush using AIC.

I think there's a reason that the flip never sold well - no offense meant though! At this point, just got of the phone with imovie who was, as usual, no help. So I'm going to go with the new canon & Adobe Premiere Elements since the new final cut sounds like it's got too many bugs. My only worry is that Premiere elements will make the computer run slow...but at least it skips the AIC format which I don't want.

 

[KeithPratt]

The Mac itself isn't the problem. Most of the wonderful-looking TV and movies you watch will have been edited on Macs. Something is going wrong along the way. If you're committed to getting a new camcorder then there's no point troubleshooting, but know that a pristine end product is possible. Also know that there shouldn't be a visible difference between the original and the Apple Intermediate Codec transcode — unless something is going wrong.

I would've thought that at your price point you're not going to see much other than AVCHD camcorders. I'd recommend you try Adobe Premiere Elements for editing. Not sure about the current version, but I think older versions transcoded AVCHD to Apple Intermediate Codec on import. But this shouldn't be a problem as Elements should know how to do it properly, in which case you wouldn't be able to tell the difference from the original.

 

[tarheelmommy]

The Mac itself isn't the problem. Most of the wonderful-looking TV and movies you watch will have been edited on Macs. Something is going wrong along the way. If you're committed to getting a new camcorder then there's no point troubleshooting, but know that a pristine end product is possible. Also know that there shouldn't be a visible difference between the original and the Apple Intermediate Codec transcode — unless something is going wrong.

I would've thought that at your price point you're not going to see much other than AVCHD camcorders. I'd recommend you try Adobe Premiere Elements for editing. Not sure about the current version, but I think older versions transcoded AVCHD to Apple Intermediate Codec on import. But this shouldn't be a problem as Elements should know how to do it properly, in which case you wouldn't be able to tell the difference from the original.

There is one HDV camcorder in my price range...the Canon HV40. Thoughts on AVCHD vs HDV???

Perhaps there is something going wrong along the way...but I can't figure out what. I'm using streamclip, choosing export to quicktime (from the file menu), Compressing to AIC (I've also tried every other compression choice with no final result making me happy re: quality). I've tried deinterlacing the video with no success. The issue is that my camcorder is muxed...so in this process the audio and video are demuxed. The frame size is 384x288. The result is really really poor. It's somewhat better when finalized on a dvd for playback on a standard def. television - the quality is still really pretty poor. However on our PC it's much better. I really think running it through streamclip is the issue. There are wavy lines that still appear when watching on the television - so it's not just on the computer (which I know the quality is sometimes worse while editing but before finalizing).

I'm reading a lot of info on the web that gives really bad reviews & comments on AIC. If someone has some more specific ideas on what I can do differently, that would be great. But at this point I don't want to use imovie unless there's a better solution.

I do really appreciate everyone's help - I'm so frustrated with the time I've spent on this. I want high quality videos! Mac phone help has been no help and didn't even know what format imovie supports!

 

[WestSt]

I'm reading a lot of info on the web that gives really bad reviews & comments on AIC. If someone has some more specific ideas on what I can do differently, that would be great.

Well... You can try ProRes 422LT in Streamclip, just for the hell of it as a last resort. Although "on paper" that is dramatic overkill, but I've had luck with Prores with stranger things then mpeg2

 

[cgbier]

HV40? You will have to wring my HV30 out of my cold, dead hands.

I prefer HDV over AVCHD, but that is a personal choice. HDV is nicer to slower computers than AVCHD, but in the end, both is transcoded to AIC or ProRes, so it doesn't matter.
There is nothing wrong with AIC at all. I have been working with it for years, and haven't heard any complaint from clients.

When you end up with 384x288, there's something wrong with you settings in MPEG Streamclip. You mind to share a screen crab of you settings window?

 

[KeithPratt]

That resolution is just plain wrong and you shouldn't be deinterlacing if you're going to be making a DVD. There may well be more issues.

On the AIC front, basically you should trust my opinion and disregard anything that contradicts it. If for some reason that's not enough for you, download a high-quality movie trailer from the internet and transcode it to AIC and see if you can spot the difference.

HDV is operationally a bit clunky for home movies, and AVCHD is for most intents its successor, so I'd be inclined disregard the HV40.

 

[tarheelmommy]

That resolution is just plain wrong and you shouldn't be deinterlacing if you're going to be making a DVD. There may well be more issues.

On the AIC front, basically you should trust my opinion and disregard anything that contradicts it. If for some reason that's not enough for you, download a high-quality movie trailer from the internet and transcode it to AIC and see if you can spot the difference.

HDV is operationally a bit clunky for home movies, and AVCHD is for most intents its successor, so I'd be inclined disregard the HV40.

Without the deinterlacing the quality is the same. Can't tell the difference if you check the box or not.

If I straight import into imovie, which sometimes it allows me to do, sometimes it does not (depending if I'm coming straight from the camera or not), there is video and no sound. This is because my camera records in muxed format. This format is not supported in imovie and must be converted.

I think you're right on the HV40. Thanks for the advice.

So if you bought a HFM41...that records in AVCHD...what would your exact steps be to get the movie from the camcorders harddrive or memory cards to imovie and then out of imovie to a standard dvd (we don't have a HD TV at this point) while preserving the BEST quality picture possible?

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Without the deinterlacing the quality is the same. Can't tell the difference if you check the box or not.

If I straight import into imovie, which sometimes it allows me to do, sometimes it does not (depending if I'm coming straight from the camera or not), there is video and no sound. This is because my camera records in muxed format. This format is not supported in imovie and must be converted.

I think you're right on the HV40. Thanks for the advice.

So if you bought a HFM41...that records in AVCHD...what would your exact steps be to get the movie from the camcorders harddrive or memory cards to imovie and then out of imovie to a standard dvd (we don't have a HD TV at this point) while preserving the BEST quality picture possible?

Perhaps it is just that my sony camera is awful and the new camera w/ a better image sensor will produce a better quality picture...which will be okay in AIC...but I'd love to have your opinion on the step by step process so that when i get the camera I can follow the directions and then determine if I should switch to Adobe premiere. Is there any reason to upgrade from imovie 09 to 11?

 

[cgbier]

With AVCHD cams, you copy the complete file structure of the card onto your desktop and import into iMovie from there. Don't forget to create camera archives to backup your footage.

If you watch your video on a CRT screen, you DON'T de-interlace, but export the clips as 1080i60 and let iDVD do the rest.

 

[tarheelmommy]

HV40? You will have to wring my HV30 out of my cold, dead hands.

I prefer HDV over AVCHD, but that is a personal choice. HDV is nicer to slower computers than AVCHD, but in the end, both is transcoded to AIC or ProRes, so it doesn't matter.
There is nothing wrong with AIC at all. I have been working with it for years, and haven't heard any complaint from clients.

When you end up with 384x288, there's something wrong with you settings in MPEG Streamclip. You mind to share a screen crab of you settings window?

There is a list of settings to choose from...apple told me to go with 384x288 when getting support on the phone. The choices are:
384x288 (4:3)
512x288 (16:9)
352x288 (unscaled)
720x576 (DV-PAL)
720x480 (DV-NTSC)
1280x720 (HDTV 720 p)
1920x1080 (HDTV 1080i)

For my sony which would I use? it records in mpeg2 MUXED (sound and audio interlaced, which is what mac said the issue is)
I'm getting if I get the canon m41 i would use the 1920x 1080i since it records in 1080i...

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With AVCHD cams, you copy the complete file structure of the card onto your desktop and import into iMovie from there. Don't forget to create camera archives to backup your footage.

If you watch your video on a CRT screen, you DON'T de-interlace, but export the clips as 1080i60 and let iDVD do the rest.

So I won't have to use streamclip w/ the AVCHD...Imovie will do the formatting for me?

Forums like this link below make me still nervous about having the same issues w/ imovie and a new camera - this is from mac support communities re: the camera I'm looking at getting: https://discussions.apple.com/message/15536421#15536421

UPDATE: My sony records in 780x480. I choose this option in mpeg streamclip & compressed to AIC - result was crap. Horrible wavy lines anytime anyone moves OR speaks on the video. Did it again and chose "deinterlace" - same result - no difference. So it must be my camera?

 

[cgbier]

Burn a video on DVD without de-interlacing, and watch it on your TV.

The Canon HM series should work flawlessly with iMovie. For watching your stuff on a computer only, you shoot in 1080p. For a CRT TV, you use 1080i.

In general, you worry too much.

 

[tarheelmommy]

Burn a video on DVD without de-interlacing, and watch it on your TV.

The Canon HM series should work flawlessly with iMovie. For watching your stuff on a computer only, you shoot in 1080p. For a CRT TV, you use 1080i.

In general, you worry too much.

Thanks for the tip re: 1080p vs i. For the sony camera, when I burn to DVD & watch on the TV it's still got the lines during any movement or when there are voices...it's not as bad as on the computer. With 720x480 (is this the correct format to use w/ my sony in streamclip?)

Even though I'm def. abandoning the sony from this point forward for NEW videos, I still have 18 months of videos to salvage that were done on the sony.

I am a perfectionist - yes - hence the worry - but also I think my post doesn't do justice to just how WAVY the video is. It's horrible.

 

[mBox]

Thanks for the tip re: 1080p vs i. For the sony camera, when I burn to DVD & watch on the TV it's still got the lines during any movement or when there are voices...it's not as bad as on the computer...

Google the display differences between NTSC and Computer monitors. Maybe pick up a book on Digital Video. You will understand better with these anomalies you are experiencing.

 

[cgbier]

Yes, 720x480 is the right resolution.

In regards to waviness: Does it look like a comb, or are there real waves? Please, if you can, post a screenshot.

 

[tarheelmommy]

Yes, 720x480 is the right resolution.

In regards to waviness: Does it look like a comb, or are there real waves? Please, if you can, post a screenshot.

Looks like comb to me - but the lines move across the screen blurring the image. It gets worse with any movement, or when any voice speaks on the video. The louder the voice or larger the movement, the bigger the "blur". The screen shot is just a moment in time of course, the blur is so bad that faces are rather unrecognizable at times.

 

[cgbier]

Try to flip around field order.

That is about the worst example I've ever seen.
But if I'm not mistaken, there's something else wrong: the combing should be independent from your audio levels.

 

[tarheelmommy]

Try to flip around field order.

That is about the worst example I've ever seen.
But if I'm not mistaken, there's something else wrong: the combing should be independent from your audio levels.

Hmm, not too sure what you mean by field order? Could you elaborate? I'm def. not an expert, but from my understanding, the audio issue comes from the fact that my camera records in Mpeg2-muxed. I use the harddrive or sd cards, not the CDs, on the camera. The muxed files open on the mac, with no sound however. I have to either 1) demux the files through mpeg streamclip - and then run them through streamclip AGAIN to compress to AIC...OR I can run them through streamclip and just convert to AIC. Mac recommended both solutions. Neither changes the quality of the video. The wavy lines w/ the audio is so strange - so the only thing I can figure out is the muxed thing...because on the PC none of this is an issue. Does it look AMAZING on my pc? NO. But, the wavy lines aren't there - just not the greatest quality in low light, but it's not the best camera. However, we don't have the abiliity to burn to DVD on my PC so the mac is the only solution at this point to save these 18 months worth of files.

Glad you think it's as bad as I do.

 

[mBox]

Field Upper or Lower?

Have you tried both field options?
This was common back in the day with DV for me.
Even using high-end Sony DVCAM this stuff could happen but mostly user error.
In MPEG Streamclip try upper or lower to see if it changes.
And also, you have to watch your clips on a field (tv) monitor.
Cant use a computer display for NTSC format and think its fine.
Keep in mind your computer is square pixels and the format your dealing with is non-square (720x480 DV or 720x486 D1).
It def is the mux process thats ruining this experience for you.
Its too bad, I teach Final Cut at local college at nights and this is the kind of problems that come up on the first day with beginners.
That was with FCP 7 and older. Nowadays with FCPX not so much since most use square pixel HD Cameras...most

 

[KeithPratt]

Glad you think it's as bad as I do.

That shouldn't be classed as "poor quality", it should be classed as a fault.

The problem you're experiencing here is that for some reason MPEG Streamclip thinks your video's resolution is 352x288. This means that when you export at 384x288 it's not properly engaging its scaling filter. The result is the mess you're getting.

What you need to do is manually specify a resolution of 720x480, AIC as the codec, with uncompressed audio. Don't select deinterlace. Hopefully the resulting video will have a frame rate of 29.97, but if it turns out to be something else, you'll need to type that into the frame rate box in MPEG Streamclip too.

The video that comes out will have visible interlacing, but that's what you want if you're going to make a DVD.

Which moves us onto our second problem. Apple decided a few years back that people didn't make DVDs or watch home movies on their TVs anymore, so stopped supporting interlaced video. I think iMovie HD ('06) is the last version to support it. That's why I suggested you try Adobe Premiere Elements. It may even recognise your camcorder and allow you to skip the MPEG Streamclip step.

For the record, muxing, AIC and field order are not the problem. (I'm 99% sure.)

 

[mBox]

For the record, muxing, AIC and field order are not the problem. (I'm 99% sure.)

Keith may be right with this. My experience with interlacing stopped back in 2007 with the DV format. To date I have no experience with this due to straight to BD or "other" for all our content.
I havent shot anything with non-square pixel since 2008.