Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I don't know, I like to pick on France, but I also love the country...studied French for 7 years and have visited a few times...all in good fun.

I was hoping to hear from someone who might have some insight into any technical considerations about the possible deals in France or perhaps a better understanding of French law.
 
I was hoping to hear from someone who might have some insight into any technical considerations about the possible deals in France or perhaps a better understanding of French law.

i'm an english lawyer but i might try to so some research on the relevant french legislation. i'm pretty interested in the consumer aspects of this situation.

the subscription model seems to be better suited to the US. in the US 85% of mobile users have a contract whereas, for instance, only 35% have in the UK. it seems to me that the vast majority of iphone users would have been using some sort of contract whichever phone they choose. and the plans on offer for the iphone seem quite attractive. no wonder (judging from responses on the forum) most people fail to see what all the fuss is about when discussing a locked phone.

i think here in the uk, there is a naturally interest in iphone from the 65% of mobile users who are not tied to any network. they don't want a contract. but are upset that in order to use iphone they have to enter into an 18 months contact. and not a hugely enticing contract either. no 5000 minutes of evening and weekend calls as in the US, only a total of 200 mins of the cheapest tariff. and a 200MB fair use policy on the data.

but it's those 65% of pay as you go customers the networks want. they want more revenue. there aren't any people without mobiles anymore, so they must convince pay as you go customers to take a contract and, thereby, spend more. a lot more. on average about £24 a month more. and they want contract customers from other networks. iphone looks like just the thing to entice both those groups of people.

but all that also looks anti-competitive to me.
 
I definitely think the Euro and Asia release of the iPhone will challenge Apple's decision to lock phones. Unlike the US, the majority of users around the world use various methods such as pre-paid phones for carriers.

Now the question is whether our US phones can go to these other countries and use the SIM cards from their official providers (such as O2 in UK or Deustche-TMobile) or if we are stuck with AT&T no matter what.
 
Of course you're stuck with the ATT SIM and have to pay roaming charges.
 
I wonder if Apple could have a special version of the firmware for France that is unlocked but has no support for other languages. If they did that then most people in other countries do not speak French and would not get the unlocked phone since they cannot use it in there language.
 
Unlocked is an EU directive

From what I understand, the requirement to sell unlocked as well as phones with a contract is EU wide, the difference comes with level of enforcement.

The UK has always seen itself as exceptional when it comes to EU polices. They're still using the Pound not the Euro.

Here's what a poster says on Slashdot:

here are no EU wide laws. There are directives, from which countries create their own versions as laws that meet local customs, historical precedent, and local lobbying/corruption influence.
 
From what I understand, the requirement to sell unlocked as well as phones with a contract is EU wide, the difference comes with level of enforcement.

The UK has always seen itself as exceptional when it comes to EU polices. They're still using the Pound not the Euro.

Here's what a poster says on Slashdot:

here are no EU wide laws. There are directives, from which countries create their own versions as laws that meet local customs, historical precedent, and local lobbying/corruption influence.

stop quoting that poster....s/he is not hugely accurate.
 
How so?

The poster on Slashdot, claims to be European and seems to know a lot about the situation.

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/06/2057247

While I don't know much about the cell phone law in particular, I have lived in Paris. I do know that consumer protection laws are much stronger there than in the US. And France is saying Non! to locked phones for a reason.

But please feel free to expand on your remarks and explain to us why you think, "s/he is not hugely accurate." What's the source of your info?
 
The poster on Slashdot, claims to be European and seems to know a lot about the situation.

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/06/2057247

While I don't know much about the cell phone law in particular, I have lived in Paris. I do know that consumer protection laws are much stronger there than in the US. And France is saying Non! to locked phones for a reason.

But please feel free to expand on your remarks and explain to us why you think, "s/he is not hugely accurate." What's the source of your info?

i am my own source; i'm a british lawyer. and i dispute that poster's suggestion that o2 will be breaking laws here and will be fined in due course.

there may be an investigation in the future by the eu into whether this subscription model is anti-competive, but at present there is no directive or law preventing o2 and apple from selling as they intend to.
 
i am my own source; i'm a british lawyer. and i dispute that poster's suggestion that o2 will be breaking laws here and will be fined in due course.

there may be an investigation in the future by the eu into whether this subscription model is anti-competive, but at present there is no directive or law preventing o2 and apple from selling as they intend to.

Here's a link to the orignal article, translated into fractured English by Google.

While it may be disutable that Orange, France Telecome, whomever, will be breaking the law, apparently they think so. Can Apple force French telecom companies to carry the iPhone?

The point is, that American consumers have the worst of all worlds with Apple's exclusive agreement with AT&T. As neither Apple or AT&T has said when the consumer contract will expire, consumers have both bought the phone and are stuck with one carrier. What's more, it may not be possible to upgrade the iPhone for free in the future, we simply don't know.

The Apple business model has completely broken the mold when it comes to cell phone purchasing and contracts, and the French aren't happy with it. It's the least consumer friendly option in the world.

http://google.com/translate?u=http://www.lesechos.fr/info/hightec/4631726.htm
 
Here's a link to the orignal article, translated into fractured English by Google.

While it may be disutable that Orange, France Telecome, whomever, will be breaking the law, apparently they think so. Can Apple force French telecom companies to carry the iPhone?

The point is, that American consumers have the worst of all worlds with Apple's exclusive agreement with AT&T. As neither Apple or AT&T has said when the consumer contract will expire, consumers have both bought the phone and are stuck with one carrier. What's more, it may not be possible to upgrade the iPhone for free in the future, we simply don't know.
[/url]


Apple has stated (on the box) that even after the initial two-year contract, the customer will need ATT service to use the phone. The phone is locked perpetually to ATT. It will be interesting to see how they handle it in the U.K.. We'll know soon enough.
 
Here's a link to the orignal article, translated into fractured English by Google.

While it may be disutable that Orange, France Telecome, whomever, will be breaking the law, apparently they think so. Can Apple force French telecom companies to carry the iPhone?

The point is, that American consumers have the worst of all worlds with Apple's exclusive agreement with AT&T. As neither Apple or AT&T has said when the consumer contract will expire, consumers have both bought the phone and are stuck with one carrier. What's more, it may not be possible to upgrade the iPhone for free in the future, we simply don't know.

The Apple business model has completely broken the mold when it comes to cell phone purchasing and contracts, and the French aren't happy with it. It's the least consumer friendly option in the world.

http://google.com/translate?u=http://www.lesechos.fr/info/hightec/4631726.htm

yes, i'm familiar with the article.

and that's a different point to one the slashdot poster is making. there appears (according to les echos - i wouldn't know) to be a french law - not necessarily giving force to an eu directive - saying that you can't sell a mobile phone locked exclusively to a service provider .

i agree with you largely. it seems very odd to me that you buy an iphone in the US but, even on the expiry of the 2 year at&t service agreement, you are obliged to continue using at&t if you want the iphone to work as a phone. you have no idea what the at&t rates will be in 2 years. whatever they are, you will have to accept it or buy a new phone.
 
Apple has stated (on the box) that even after the initial two-year contract, the customer will need ATT service to use the phone. The phone is locked perpetually to ATT. It will be interesting to see how they handle it in the U.K.. We'll know soon enough.

Thanks for the info.

What I'm wondering; will the locked, unlocked thing end up being a problem that the EU as a while will have to solve. It's definitely better for the consumer to have a choice, especially for those who travel to foreign countries a lot.

I hate to see it when multinationals swamp local laws end up over-ridng strong consumer protection.
 
What I'm wondering; will the locked, unlocked thing end up being a problem that the EU as a while will have to solve. It's definitely better for the .

i wouldn't be surprised if someone brings this to the attention of the EU and they investigate whether it is anti-competitive.
 
Hahaha. You hit the nail on the head with this one. If our American government put the interests of Americans first, I dollar wouldn't be plummeting and our domestic industry wouldn't be on life support...
... unemployment rate would double, people with political connections would own very profitable industrial and financial firms shielded from competition, taxes would probably go up to support farming, but food prices would still go up even more at the supermarket...

I cannot say I envy French political system, but if they are happy with it, then it is their choice of course...
 
Thanks for the info.

What I'm wondering; will the locked, unlocked thing end up being a problem that the EU as a while will have to solve. It's definitely better for the consumer to have a choice, especially for those who travel to foreign countries a lot.

I hate to see it when multinationals swamp local laws end up over-ridng strong consumer protection.

It's funny to see Apple as the problem, when in my opinion, the problem is that the EU and the Eurpopean countries are simply actively offering protectionism of their local wireless providers.

In a sane world, You could buy an iPhone in Europe and use it in any country in Europe; the same way you use it in your home country.

Think of the absurdity of it all if Apple had to negotiate with Sprint in California, AT&T in Texas, T-Mobile in Florida...but wait New York state won't allow you to sell phones that are locked to only Verizon. Now Apple has to choose between selling iPhones in NY and offering unlocked ones!

My point?

If the EU really cared about the consumer in this case and not protecting national fiefdoms, they would mandate coverage across all EU countries with no roaming.

Apple could then negotiate with one carrier and you'd know it would work across the continent with no extra fees.
 
Good and bad Frenchie laws

I've lived there, and there are definiate pluses and minuses.

All higher level education is free, including medical school. The work week is 35 hrs. instead of 40 and every full time worker is entitled to at least 4 wks of paid vacation.

Some blame these worker friendly laws for the stagnant economy, certainly their unemployment levels are unacceptably high. IMO that's largely due to the fact that it's almost impossible to fire people. Lot's of red tape and a rigid hierachy add to the problem.

Of course, health care is guarenteed and heavily subsidized by the government.

IMHO France could use a little shaking up, but not so much that it becomes an "every man for himself" State, like the US.
 
It's funny to see Apple as the problem, when in my opinion, the problem is that the EU and the Eurpopean countries are simply actively offering protectionism of their local wireless providers.

how is the EU protecting the phone companies? or any of the countries? i don't follow you.
 
Anyone with you on that?

yes.

The french government is terrible for business, the only reason france can exist is that there are countries that work differently than france that french nationals can work for, without being subject to french business laws.
 
Re: in my opinion, the problem is that the EU and the Eurpopean countries are simply actively offering protectionism of their local wireless providers.

Laws, if there are any that require phone co.'s to sell unlocked as well as locked phones, protect the consumer. An unlocked phone allows you to switch SIM chips from competing telecom companies whenever one chooses, for whatever reason.

Unlocked phones are especially important in a continent that has almost as many countries as America has States. Imagine going to your neighboring State and having to pay international roaming charges!
 
I've lived there, and there are definiate pluses and minuses.

All higher level education is free, including medical school. The work week is 35 hrs. instead of 40 and every full time worker is entitled to at least 4 wks of paid vacation.

Some blame these worker friendly laws for the stagnant economy, certainly their unemployment levels are unacceptably high. IMO that's largely due to the fact that it's almost impossible to fire people. Lot's of red tape and a rigid hierachy add to the problem.

Of course, health care is guarenteed and heavily subsidized by the government.

IMHO France could use a little shaking up, but not so much that it becomes an "every man for himself" State, like the US.

Yes Education is free, but look at the quality...

THe unemployment rate is high because you cannot afford to hire people, as per fees the french government takes to fund their sub par educations system

as for the Health care system.
It also is abysmal, it takes in almost 6 times the ammount of money that it needs, and is the only country that does not allow organs to be harvested when the individual died of natural causes, even unrelated, as a result killing almost 1,000 people a year.

A Private System in France, given the formally self sufficiant attitude of frenchmen, it clearly a smarter choice.

As for Phone unloking, their argument is that it helps/protects the consumer from business. NEWS FLASH, the consumer works for business, and is being hurt there, then as a result companies have to charge higher rates, that the consumers cannot pay. Companies go out of business, people loose jobs, and then to stary the process all over again, seeing as though these people now need to rely on Gov't services, then tax business more. Its one infinite loop.

Wake up to consumerism, the Gov't will make more money with lower taxes, because more money changes hands and is there for taxed, as a result, companies will lower their prices instead, fighting for the customer, CREATING BETTER PRODUCTS
 
Re: in my opinion, the problem is that the EU and the Eurpopean countries are simply actively offering protectionism of their local wireless providers.

Laws, if there are any that require phone co.'s to sell unlocked as well as locked phones, protect the consumer. An unlocked phone allows you to switch SIM chips from competing telecom companies whenever one chooses, for whatever reason.

Unlocked phones are especially important in a continent that has almost as many countries as America has States. Imagine going to your neighboring State and having to pay international roaming charges!

It wasn't that long ago that many plans were local or regional and you did have to pay roaming charges when travelling outside your area.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.