Constrained Supplies Suggest Mac Mini Server and Mac Pro Server Headed for Refresh

[Atlantico]

I think that the Mac Mini has a lot of potential. I used to look down on them until I started reading a lot of the posts here at MR by owners. One of the things that I don't understand (and there are a bunch) is why does Apple limit the potential of these machines by using laptop components? Yeah, I do realize that it is small, but why is it that small. This is a desktop computer. Why not make something the size of the G4 Cube and use some real and less expensive components? I read a comment recently where someone was talking about the current iMac and making suggestions on how they could make the iMac 50% thinner! I don't know why it is as thin as it is now. These are desktop computers, they do not need to be so small that they can fit into a woman's purse! These are desktop computers and desktop computer buyers want as much performance as possible. So stop hobbling these computers for the sake of style over substance.

Very much agreed and fuels much of my frustration of Apple Mac products. I *want* to love them, but when Steve introduced the current iMac form factor (some time ago) and gloated it was almost an inch thinner than the last one.. it was clear Steve and by extension Apple was going for form over performance and price.

I'd love a relatively bulgy iMac if it had all desktop components, desktop performance and a lower price (same goes for the mini) - but essentially the business model seems to be: Use the laptop components already being bought for the MacBook and MacBook Pro and make the Mac mini and iMac respectively (with some minor tweaks)

 

[AidenShaw]

RAID-1, RAID-5, RAID-10, RAID-50 make a lot of sense

There has yet to be a mass of consumer thunderbolt stuff announced.

And few of those with announced prices, and none of them available yet. Only 9 days to the start of summer (NH), and about 13 weeks until the end of summer.

It does look like right now that TB won't be a very consumer friendly technology,

+1

...but a few Mac heads with too much money and too little sense will buy those 5 disk RAID arrays for a few thousand $.

I wouldn't say "too little sense" - once you have a TB or two of data, you should be very nervous about disk failures.

I have a 6 TB RAID-5 array on my home server - cost about $520 (eSATA cabinet for $199, 4*2 TB disks @ $79).

 

[munkery]

Why would there be a plethora of home consumer thunderbolt peripherals when home consumers are not the targeted consumers for the technology?

 

[AidenShaw]

Why would there be a plethora of home consumer thunderbolt peripherals when home consumers are not the targeted consumers for the technology?

An Imac is not a consumer-oriented device?

 

[KnightWRX]

I wouldn't say "too little sense" - once you have a TB or two of data, you should be very nervous about disk failures.

I have a 6 TB RAID-5 array on my home server - cost about $520 (eSATA cabinet for $199, 4*2 TB disks @ $79).

Too little sense in the fact that they could have had a RAID solution for much less money had they not gone the ThunderBolt route.

I myself right now use a QNAP NAS with drives in RAID-1.

Why would there be a plethora of home consumer thunderbolt peripherals when home consumers are not the targeted consumers for the technology?

My point from the very beginning. Leave it to Apple to try to shove a niche technology into consumer machines, making buyers have to pay for stuff they will never use (the TB controller) while leaving out other consumer tech. It's FW all over again.

 

[Ice Dragon]

Is it just me or has there been a total 180 on Thunderbolt since before it got released?

I seem to remember prior to the new MacBook Pros, some couldn't wait for the then Light Peak. Now, it's taking on a life of " Thunderbolt sucks!"

 

[KnightWRX]

Is it just me or has there been a total 180 on Thunderbolt since before it got released?

I seem to remember prior to the new MacBook Pros, some couldn't wait for the then Light Peak. Now, it's taking on a life of " Thunderbolt sucks!"

Reality sinking in. TB sounds good on paper, however, lack of peripherals, lack of industry support seemingly (few peripherals announced, price of those that are, type of peripherals), issues with Apple's use of MDP (I have to unplug my monitor to plug in stuff in the chain? What now ?), space taken by the controller on the logic board while we're stuck with an Intel IGP, etc.. etc..

Basically, I think a lot of people are realizing the compromises just aren't worth it.

 

[DisMyMac]

Is it just me or has there been a total 180 on Thunderbolt since before it got released?

I seem to remember prior to the new MacBook Pros, some couldn't wait for the then Light Peak. Now, it's taking on a life of " Thunderbolt sucks!"

I'm starting to wonder if the TB port is actually a piece of aluminum beer can that's been shaped to look like it does something.

Reality sinking in. TB sounds good on paper, however, lack of peripherals, lack of industry support seemingly (few peripherals announced, price of those that are, type of peripherals), issues with Apple's use of MDP (I have to unplug my monitor to plug in stuff in the chain? What now ?)

Apple promises a tropical paradise, and instead you get Jonestown. Who's to blame for that? We were fools, and even now the excuses keep coming...

 

[AidenShaw]

Too little sense in the fact that they could have had a RAID solution for much less money had they not gone the ThunderBolt route.

I myself right now use a QNAP NAS with drives in RAID-1.

OK, I agree. I also went with the simple two-drive RAID-1 eSATA box until it became too small (and it looked like using larger drives in a two-drive RAID-1 would only postpone the inevitable for about a year), and went with the RAID-5 solution.

My point from the very beginning. Leave it to Apple to try to shove a niche technology into consumer machines, making buyers have to pay for stuff they will never use (the TB controller) while leaving out other consumer tech. It's FW all over again.

Think that the new MBAs and MiniMacs will have USB3?

(ducks)

Reality sinking in. TB sounds good on paper, however, lack of peripherals, lack of industry support seemingly (few peripherals announced, price of those that are, type of peripherals), issues with Apple's use of MDP (I have to unplug my monitor to plug in stuff in the chain? What now ?), space taken by the controller on the logic board while we're stuck with an Intel IGP, etc.. etc..

Basically, I think a lot of people are realizing the compromises just aren't worth it.

It's hard to get industry support for a proprietary, single source, vendor-owned technology these days. That kind of thinking led to the demise of Digital Equipment Corporation at the end of the last century.

You'd think that Apple would be smarter than to climb into bed with something like that.

While Apple has been shacking up with Intel for a while, the rest of the industry has settled into a comfortable position of playing AMD against Intel. As long as TBolt isn't in the AMD chipsets, IMO it's doomed to an expensive niche.

How expensive? We still don't know. Nobody is shipping TBolt peripherals, and almost nobody has announced prices for the devices that have been announced for shipment "this summer". ("Summer" in the north starts in about a week, and ends in about 13 weeks.)

I can't wait to visit Newegg when things start shipping....

Apple promises a tropical paradise, and instead you get Jonestown. Who's to blame for that? We were fools, and even now the excuses keep coming...

TBolt post of the month!

 

[munkery]

An Imac is not a consumer-oriented device?

An iMac can be used for anything. If a photographer wants a Mac desktop, why get a Mac Pro when an iMac comes with a good quality display?

My point from the very beginning. Leave it to Apple to try to shove a niche technology into consumer machines, making buyers have to pay for stuff they will never use (the TB controller) while leaving out other consumer tech. It's FW all over again.

The machines that have TB are used in professional settings. All but the MacBook are marketed for such purposes.

I agree that the inclusion of TB does not apply to most users. Catering to the niche segment that uses Macs in a professional setting prevents losing those customers.

I agree this does allow Apple to profit more from average consumers that purchase Macs that will not use the technology. But, I disagree that necessary technology is left out because of this.

 

[srf4real]

So I like koolaid. But come on guys we're talking about servers here not consumer computers. TB blows doors on USB3 and we know it. Maybe Apple intends to rule the world, one server at a time.

btw. iMac may be targeted largely at consumers, but lots of professional engineers, designers and media creators are buying truckloads of 'em because they can do what they do and come with that shiny ips screen already. The kind of folks who need fast access to servers and storage or multiple external displays controlled from a TB hub. Why ask why?

 

[AidenShaw]

I agree this does allow Apple to profit more from average consumers that purchase Macs that will not use the technology. But, I disagree that necessary technology is left out because of this.

So, where's USB 3.0?

I won't ask "where's Blu-ray", since that has nothing to do with the system engineering - it's only whether you have the option of having a SATA optical drive that's DVD or BD.

The NEC USB 3.0 controller chip is far smaller than Intel's proprietary TBolt chip, yet Apple finds room for the proprietary TBolt chip and disses USB 3.0.

I guess that you justify your position by saying "necessary technology" instead of "desirable technology". Yes?

So I like koolaid.

Wow. You sure do.

But come on guys we're talking about servers here not consumer computers. TB blows doors on USB3 and we know it. Maybe Apple intends to rule the world, one server at a time.

Apple makes servers? Didn't you hear that they cancelled their one and only entry-level server early this year?

And, by the way, we don't know that "TB blows doors on USB3" since there are NO TBOLT PERIPHERALS AVAILABLE TO PURCHASE TODAY. TBOlt may give you a woody when you read the specs, but "we don't know" whether it's even viable.

And, "one server at a time"? Let us know when Apple builds and sells a server. As weak as the XServe was, at least it met the main check list items for a server. A MiniMac without an optical drive is laughable, and the maxi-tower Mac Pro is closer but fails on some critical points (redundant power supplies, for example).

 

[munkery]

So, where's USB 3.0?

I won't ask "where's Blu-ray", since that has nothing to do with the system engineering - it's only whether you have the option of having a SATA optical drive that's DVD or BD.

The NEC USB 3.0 controller chip is far smaller than Intel's proprietary TBolt chip, yet Apple finds room for the proprietary TBolt chip and disses USB 3.0.

I guess that you justify your position by saying "necessary technology" instead of "desirable technology". Yes?

Does the average consumer desire these things? Most people I know do not care about USB3 and do not have a BD in their laptops. Only spec geeks care about these features.

The average consumer doesn't care about the difference between USB2 and USB3. All they care about is being able to plug in the peripheral and have it work. But, TBolt is a better solution over USB3 for professionals.

Having to connect your computer to a TV every time you watch a BD is enough of a hassle to motivate someone to buy a BD player. On a small screen what benefit is BD given that the user then also has to bring the external media with them to use. Digital media that is purchased online is much more convenient than BD.

 

[AidenShaw]

The average consumer doesn't care about the difference between USB2 and USB3.

But wouldn't some of them wonder why external disks on Windows systems are ten times faster than the same external disks on Apple OSX systems?

Having to connect your computer to a TV every time you watch a BD....

Where's this nonsense coming from. My graphics card has an HDMI output, my monitor has an HDMI input - I simply press "play" and IT JUST WORKS.

Digital media that is purchased online is much more convenient than BD.

But the quality is crap compared to BD. If you want to watch convenient crap, OK.

 

[munkery]

But wouldn't some of them wonder why external disks on Windows systems are ten times faster than the same external disks on Apple OSX systems?

Not if the user is using TBolt.

Also, most users don't notice or care given that they don't do any transfers that take long enough for them to even notice the duration or care about it. Also, they typically only use peripherals in this manner on their own machines.

Also, USB3 (and TBolt) market share is too low for most users to be in a position to notice. The only users that care about transfer speed are spec geeks and those that have their financially valuable productivity decreased while waiting for large transfers to complete; in this regard, TBolt is better than USB3.

Where's this nonsense coming from. My graphics card has an HDMI output, my monitor has an HDMI input - I simply press "play" and IT JUST WORKS.

Still more work than a BD player which is already set up. This is compounded by the configuration of the rest of the home media system in relation to its auxiliary components.

Why put that milage on a relatively expensive computer when it can be put onto a much cheaper BD player?

But the quality is crap compared to BD. If you want to watch convenient crap, OK.

Most downloadable digital media is available in HD and the difference between the different HD formats is only perceivable on screens much larger than the largest laptop screens. Also, some digital media formats have higher resolution than BD.

 

[AidenShaw]

Not if the user is using TBolt.

Which no user is using - since TBolt is pure vaporware at the moment. Can't buy it - can't even tell what the price for TBolt devices will be.

Most downloadable digital media is available in HD and the difference between the different HD formats is only perceivable on screens much larger than the largest laptop screens.

This is the lame "nobody can tell the difference between fake HD (720p) and True HD (1080p) on screens smaller than 10/20/30/40/50/50/60/70/80 inches..." argument, no?

This has been debunked so many times - it's a matter of screen size and viewing distance.

Also, some digital media formats have higher resolution than BD.

Please enumerate, and point out legal sources of "higher resolution than BD" material for current movies.

We may all be red in ten years, but today it's irrelevant for watching a commercial release.

 

[munkery]

If the inclusion of USB3 mattered to the average consumer, then why is Mac market share growing?

If the inclusion of a BD drive mattered to the average consumer, then why is Mac market share growing?

Why does it have to be limited to current movie releases? Most users also consume video media not defined as such. Youtube provides video media up to 4k!

If the necessity to watch current movies in 1080 on a laptop mattered to the average consumer, then why is Mac market share growing?

 

[AidenShaw]

If the inclusion of USB3 mattered to the average consumer, then why is Mac market share growing?

If the inclusion of a BD drive mattered to the average consumer, then why is Mac market share growing?

Why does it have to be limited to current movie releases. Most users also consume video media not defined as such. Youtube provides video media up to 4k!

If the necessity to watch current movies in 1080 on a laptop mattered to the average consumer, then why is Mac market share growing?

You sound like a smarter *LTD* ....

And you also fail to address the question "would Apple market share grow *faster* if...?

 

[munkery]

But the quality is crap compared to BD. If you want to watch convenient crap, OK.

This has been debunked so many times - it's a matter of screen size and viewing distance.

Hey, now you are debunking yourself.

How can 1080 be absolutely better and necessary when it's just a matter of screen size and viewing distance?

 

[AidenShaw]

Hey, now you are debunking yourself.

How can 1080 be absolutely better and necessary when it's just a matter of screen size and viewing distance?

Clever - enjoy your over-compressed 720p instead of high bitrate 1080p.

 

[munkery]

Hopefully it doesn't cost you too much to replace the BD drive in your laptop after it fails due to wear and tear from being used as a glorified BD player. Moving parts have a life span that gets shorter the more you use them.

 

[KnightWRX]

The machines that have TB are used in professional settings. All but the MacBook are marketed for such purposes.

MBPs and iMacs are used in professional settings ? Those are some of the top selling consumer devices. Apple doesn't really have profesional offerings beyond the Mac Pro these days.

So I like koolaid. But come on guys we're talking about servers here not consumer computers.

Hum, the Mac mini server is a consumer computer. It sure as heck ain't an entreprise solution. Same for the Mac Pro server.

 

[munkery]

MBPs and iMacs are used in professional settings ? Those are some of the top selling consumer devices. Apple doesn't really have profesional offerings beyond the Mac Pro these days.

Check out the laptops used by most of the sports journalists just outside the cage at UFC events.

Hum, the Mac mini server is a consumer computer. It sure as heck ain't an entreprise solution. Same for the Mac Pro server.

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/rackmacmini.html

http://www.macminicolo.net/

 

[KnightWRX]

Check out the laptops used by most of the sports journalists just outside the cage at UFC events.

And those journalists have pro needs ? No really, that consumer devices are used in a professional setting is not the question, but the devices' true purpose remains the consumer market. I use my MBA for my job sometimes, which is entreprise level systems administration. It doesn't make the MBA an entreprise solution.

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/rackmacmini.html

http://www.macminicolo.net/

I know them. Still doesn't make the Mac Mini an entreprise solution. It's very much a consumer type machine. Again, because some people use it professionally doesn't make the machine a "pro-level" machine.

Some professionals just don't have pro-level needs out of computers sometimes.

 

[JabbaII]

Does the average consumer desire these things? Most people I know do not care about USB3 and do not have a BD in their laptops. Only spec geeks care about these features.

The average consumer doesn't care about the difference between USB2 and USB3. All they care about is being able to plug in the peripheral and have it work. But, TBolt is a better solution over USB3 for professionals.

Having to connect your computer to a TV every time you watch a BD is enough of a hassle to motivate someone to buy a BD player. On a small screen what benefit is BD given that the user then also has to bring the external media with them to use. Digital media that is purchased online is much more convenient than BD.

If you do video editing, BD support is very welcome. Also price of monitors have come down. 27", 30" screens are dirty cheap compared to 5 years ago.

Can't send to grandma home video over the internet

USB3.0 has not arrived in the mac world yet.

What I am saying is that like iphone, itouch, Apple needs to move with the times when it comes to personal computing.

A lot of PC notebooks have USB3.0 now.

The beauty of USD3.0 is that consumers don't need to be looking for nor care about it.

Cost of making USB3.0 devices looks to be the same as usb2.0 judging by the prices. USB2.0 HDD/Thumdrives are slowly being phased out at least in Japan. After 2 years USB3 is finally available mainstream.

USB3.0 thumb drive
http://buffalo.jp/product/usb-memory/speed/ruf3-ss/
USB3.0 HDD
External SSD
http://buffalo.jp/products/catalog/storage/shd-pehu3/
External HDD
http://buffalo.jp/products/catalog/storage/hd-hxu3/
Bus powered HDD
http://buffalo.jp/product/hdd/portable/hd-pctu3/