Corporate Perks - MacBook or MacBook Pro?

[tomscott1988]

The surface machines are notebooks with a touch screen in the form factor of a tablet.

Essentially you can have the same experience as a tablet or a laptop by using it in tablet or notebook form. The specs are similar but the surface does more, whether it does it well is a different matter.

I dont think its a terrible comparison because from some desktop apps like lightroom having a notebook with a touchscreen in a tablet form can be a big advantage.

For example painting effects which is far easier and makes the device more tactile, note taking etc etc with the surface book plug it into a very powerful base when you need the power. I think its interesting and a big misstep by apple.

Microsofts implementation may not be perfect, the device larger and heavier but they will crack it, half of the problem is with windows.

If apple could integrate part of the iPad experience with desktop apps it would be a fantastic addition for creatives, and make a far more tactile desktop experience. You could use a macbook as a drawing implement for a desktop meaning you can get more out of your devices. Imagine it like a wacom cintique that is still a fully fledged machine in its own right, that you can use in exactly the same way as they used to. Bigger market, innovation, something new etc etc

Personally the Surface book is the most interesting product thats been launched in this space for years. Its odd, had amazing specs, and not overly reliable. The idea on the other hand is amazing. If apple could add once ounce of their polish of their products and integration of software it could be a complete game changer.

On the other hand VR and AR are the next thing, but I can see myself wearing goggles to work. Neither can I see AR being implemented in anything much bigger than a phone because they are about the right size for the experience.

Not sure how it would relate to most tasks apart from 3d modeling.

The lack of updates, in my mind is why the macbook pro is out of the lime light. It does nothing different that the 2008 macbook pro did apart from speed bumps. Its not an easy sell, in fact its lost more of its pro side than gained especially since 2016. The actual use case is exactly the same, you can only keep selling people down the same river for significant price increases for so long. People want and expect more from the experience.

Especially when the macbook pro was a go to for writers etc now we have an awful keyboard that is super unreliable and very expensive to fix. Many creatives have moved to windows because the OS is stagnant and doesnt support technologies that speed up the programs like CUDA.

Ive been screaming for some sort of IOS Mac OS integration for years because lets be fair both are stagnant currently nothing big has happened in years. Mac and ipad sales arent great. Yet they have just let it slide.

Its perfectly obvious, apple basically left the door wide open for the surface line! If apple were still top of the class the surface wouldn't exist... there was a big gap and microsoft have filled it and apple still havent started.

The ipad is not a desktop replacement. IOS is cr*p for anything but simple tasks, no file system or actual desktop grade apps, or media consumption. It is a impulsive expensive purchase with still no concrete reason to buy. Yet the pen is the best on the market. Just seems stupid that there are technologies that are great in both camps and apple still haven't made a hybrid that actually works, and works well.

If you look at the bigger picture the mac has about 10% of the apple ecosystem product share and the ipad about 20% if they merged them thats 30% and in the even bigger picture of pc and tablet sales, combining them would put apple at the no.1 spot on unit sales in the industry... probably get people back to the mac.

The main issue for the macbook is exactly what you say "12" MacBook will probably suit most people who aren't really doing that much" for most people the ipad is more suitable for those simple tasks and it starts at £319 and the macbook is £1249, the ipad even has a faster processor. Then there is the competition from the macbook pro. If people arent savvy to what has been discussed in this thread. The macbook pro is seen as far superior... although its not really, so for the same price as a macbook they can have the base macbook pro.

Its all marketing BS really. If you look at the products since SJ died, they have sat on their laurels, made more products rather than the tight ship and honestly i hate to say the word innovation, because its been done to death. But honestly what has changed. Weve got the watch, which is ok. Yet it still cant figure out what workout your doing you have to tell it. Beyond annoying and the fitbit did that from day one.

Its got to the point where we are now. Where normal people cant make a decision on one product in the whole apple laptop line because every product has been gimped in one way or the other or they have a value that far exceeds their function.

There is not one definitive solution.

Just saying.

Its so hard to be an apple fan.

 

[Dave245]

The surface machines are notebooks with a touch screen in the form factor of a tablet.

Essentially you can have the same experience as a tablet or a laptop by using it in tablet or notebook form. The specs are similar but the surface does more, whether it does it well is a different matter.

I dont think its a terrible comparison because from some desktop apps like lightroom having a notebook with a touchscreen in a tablet form can be a big advantage.

For example painting effects which is far easier and makes the device more tactile, note taking etc etc with the surface book plug it into a very powerful base when you need the power. I think its interesting and a big misstep by apple.

Microsofts implementation may not be perfect, the device larger and heavier but they will crack it, half of the problem is with windows.

If apple could integrate part of the iPad experience with desktop apps it would be a fantastic addition for creatives, and make a far more tactile desktop experience. You could use a macbook as a drawing implement for a desktop meaning you can get more out of your devices. Imagine it like a wacom cintique that is still a fully fledged machine in its own right, that you can use in exactly the same way as they used to. Bigger market, innovation, something new etc etc

Personally the Surface book is the most interesting product thats been launched in this space for years. Its odd, had amazing specs, and not overly reliable. The idea on the other hand is amazing. If apple could add once ounce of their polish of their products and integration of software it could be a complete game changer.

On the other hand VR and AR are the next thing, but I can see myself wearing goggles to work. Neither can I see AR being implemented in anything much bigger than a phone because they are about the right size for the experience.

Not sure how it would relate to most tasks apart from 3d modeling.

The lack of updates, in my mind is why the macbook pro is out of the lime light. It does nothing different that the 2008 macbook pro did apart from speed bumps. Its not an easy sell, in fact its lost more of its pro side than gained especially since 2016. The actual use case is exactly the same, you can only keep selling people down the same river for significant price increases for so long. People want and expect more from the experience.

Especially when the macbook pro was a go to for writers etc now we have an awful keyboard that is super unreliable and very expensive to fix. Many creatives have moved to windows because the OS is stagnant and doesnt support technologies that speed up the programs like CUDA.

Ive been screaming for some sort of IOS Mac OS integration for years because lets be fair both are stagnant currently nothing big has happened in years. Mac and ipad sales arent great. Yet they have just let it slide.

Its perfectly obvious, apple basically left the door wide open for the surface line! If apple were still top of the class the surface wouldn't exist... there was a big gap and microsoft have filled it and apple still havent started.

The ipad is not a desktop replacement. IOS is cr*p for anything but simple tasks, no file system or actual desktop grade apps, or media consumption. It is a impulsive expensive purchase with still no concrete reason to buy. Yet the pen is the best on the market. Just seems stupid that there are technologies that are great in both camps and apple still haven't made a hybrid that actually works, and works well.

If you look at the bigger picture the mac has about 10% of the apple ecosystem product share and the ipad about 20% if they merged them thats 30% and in the even bigger picture of pc and tablet sales, combining them would put apple at the no.1 spot on unit sales in the industry... probably get people back to the mac.

The main issue for the macbook is exactly what you say "12" MacBook will probably suit most people who aren't really doing that much" for most people the ipad is more suitable for those simple tasks and it starts at £319 and the macbook is £1249, the ipad even has a faster processor. Then there is the competition from the macbook pro. If people arent savvy to what has been discussed in this thread. The macbook pro is seen as far superior... although its not really, so for the same price as a macbook they can have the base macbook pro.

Its all marketing BS really. If you look at the products since SJ died, they have sat on their laurels, made more products rather than the tight ship and honestly i hate to say the word innovation, because its been done to death. But honestly what has changed. Weve got the watch, which is ok. Yet it still cant figure out what workout your doing you have to tell it. Beyond annoying and the fitbit did that from day one.

Its got to the point where we are now. Where normal people cant make a decision on one product in the whole apple laptop line because every product has been gimped in one way or the other or they have a value that far exceeds their function.

There is not one definitive solution.

Just saying.

Its so hard to be an apple fan.

Apple have said that they won’t do a hybrid, Tim Cook himself said that he thinks the Surface lime is a diluted product and that it’s not good for the end user. Then there was his comment about the “toaster and refrigerator” he is very much against it so I wouldn’t bet on Apple doing anything like that any time soon.

Personally I don’t understand the Surface, I find it confusing a little, they say it can replace your laptop but then Apple says that about the iPad Pro, I own an iPad Pro 2017 but I still like to use an actual computer. Then there are a number of Surface devices such as the Surface Pro, Surface Book and the Surface Laptop, are they not just doing the same and confusing people as what we should buy? That’s a genuine question because some of this stuff is so confusing to none tech spec people such as myself.

I will say one thing I give Microsoft credit where it’s due they have tried something new and haven’t been worried about it potentially failing, from what I’ve read the Surface sales are not the best but yet they still move forward with it, also I will give them credit for the design of the Surface line up I think the Surface Book 2 and Surface Pro looks good! And this is coming from an Apple user\fan.

I will be completely honest, if it was Apple who had made the Surface with MacOS when it first came out before the iPad or indeed instead of the iPad I probably would of tried one, I’m not saying I would love it because I’m far from sold on the idea of having a touch screen on a laptop (I’ve made posts about such a thing on threads within this forum) BUT at least Microsoft are trying out such devices.

I will say that I think the lineup of Mac’s has got really difficult when you can also compare it to things like the iPad Pro which is marketed as being able to replace a laptop, for a lot of people I think it can (my mum and dad are two people that it has done just that for) BUT for someone like me who writes a lot along with multitasking and the odd game the iPad Pro is more of an addition to my Mac, the problem isn’t in choosing an iPad Pro it’s in choosing a Mac (although I’m now sold on the 12” MacBook) but at the same time owning two products like the iPad Pro and a Mac while they do compliment each other very well it’s also more expensive BUT at times is like which one do I use.

 

[tomscott1988]

Well I think by looking at the specs it’s fairly easy to tell the difference and all are in different categories of the same idea. Entry, mid, high.

The difference is windows has a tablet version of windows enables on windows 10 which is like a tablet windows OS but you can also use the fully fledged windows 10 in windows mode. Essentially look at it running OS X and iOS at the same time.

There are many positives to iOS and Mac OS and as many negatives and bringing some of each features has already happened.

Like you say the implementation isn’t the best in the surface but I like the idea. Best of both worlds.

Tim Cook can say what he pleases really he’s a business man and the current Apple lineup is his doing. He’s not an innovator neither is he really passionate about the products. He has done his job in ensuring apples $ is increasing but the magic of those products, the excitement with the actually delivery of world class products has gone.

He would rather you buy a MacBook and an iPad Pro because he can get another near £1000 out of you. Whereas the surface was made to hit that mid range basing able to do both.

Yet if your honest with yourself the iPad it’s a not a productive tool it’s a nice addition but doesn’t really fill any need in a “post pc era”. It could be so much more but they won’t allow it because it will be the end of the Mac and vice Versa.

I suppose it’s hard to see where apples direction is they have diluted their own product lines where too many products overlap and there isn’t enough to justify the difference.

Neither are they looking at the technologies they have and making interesting products they are almost predictable every year.

It’s time for a shake up. Can’t see it happening tho.

You could take it from the perspective of what more does it need to do it’s a tertiary product. Apple was never like that it was always on the cusp of something else now it’s just offering the same old same old in a more expensive price point to ensure sales figures don’t decrease.

The Mac isn’t selling more it’s selling less at a higher price point.

 

[Dodgeman]

The surface machines are notebooks with a touch screen in the form factor of a tablet.

Essentially you can have the same experience as a tablet or a laptop by using it in tablet or notebook form. The specs are similar but the surface does more, whether it does it well is a different matter.

I dont think its a terrible comparison because from some desktop apps like lightroom having a notebook with a touchscreen in a tablet form can be a big advantage.

For example painting effects which is far easier and makes the device more tactile, note taking etc etc with the surface book plug it into a very powerful base when you need the power. I think its interesting and a big misstep by apple.

Microsofts implementation may not be perfect, the device larger and heavier but they will crack it, half of the problem is with windows.

If apple could integrate part of the iPad experience with desktop apps it would be a fantastic addition for creatives, and make a far more tactile desktop experience. You could use a macbook as a drawing implement for a desktop meaning you can get more out of your devices. Imagine it like a wacom cintique that is still a fully fledged machine in its own right, that you can use in exactly the same way as they used to. Bigger market, innovation, something new etc etc

Personally the Surface book is the most interesting product thats been launched in this space for years. Its odd, had amazing specs, and not overly reliable. The idea on the other hand is amazing. If apple could add once ounce of their polish of their products and integration of software it could be a complete game changer.

On the other hand VR and AR are the next thing, but I can see myself wearing goggles to work. Neither can I see AR being implemented in anything much bigger than a phone because they are about the right size for the experience.

Not sure how it would relate to most tasks apart from 3d modeling.

The lack of updates, in my mind is why the macbook pro is out of the lime light. It does nothing different that the 2008 macbook pro did apart from speed bumps. Its not an easy sell, in fact its lost more of its pro side than gained especially since 2016. The actual use case is exactly the same, you can only keep selling people down the same river for significant price increases for so long. People want and expect more from the experience.

Especially when the macbook pro was a go to for writers etc now we have an awful keyboard that is super unreliable and very expensive to fix. Many creatives have moved to windows because the OS is stagnant and doesnt support technologies that speed up the programs like CUDA.

Ive been screaming for some sort of IOS Mac OS integration for years because lets be fair both are stagnant currently nothing big has happened in years. Mac and ipad sales arent great. Yet they have just let it slide.

Its perfectly obvious, apple basically left the door wide open for the surface line! If apple were still top of the class the surface wouldn't exist... there was a big gap and microsoft have filled it and apple still havent started.

The ipad is not a desktop replacement. IOS is cr*p for anything but simple tasks, no file system or actual desktop grade apps, or media consumption. It is a impulsive expensive purchase with still no concrete reason to buy. Yet the pen is the best on the market. Just seems stupid that there are technologies that are great in both camps and apple still haven't made a hybrid that actually works, and works well.

If you look at the bigger picture the mac has about 10% of the apple ecosystem product share and the ipad about 20% if they merged them thats 30% and in the even bigger picture of pc and tablet sales, combining them would put apple at the no.1 spot on unit sales in the industry... probably get people back to the mac.

The main issue for the macbook is exactly what you say "12" MacBook will probably suit most people who aren't really doing that much" for most people the ipad is more suitable for those simple tasks and it starts at £319 and the macbook is £1249, the ipad even has a faster processor. Then there is the competition from the macbook pro. If people arent savvy to what has been discussed in this thread. The macbook pro is seen as far superior... although its not really, so for the same price as a macbook they can have the base macbook pro.

Its all marketing BS really. If you look at the products since SJ died, they have sat on their laurels, made more products rather than the tight ship and honestly i hate to say the word innovation, because its been done to death. But honestly what has changed. Weve got the watch, which is ok. Yet it still cant figure out what workout your doing you have to tell it. Beyond annoying and the fitbit did that from day one.

Its got to the point where we are now. Where normal people cant make a decision on one product in the whole apple laptop line because every product has been gimped in one way or the other or they have a value that far exceeds their function.

There is not one definitive solution.

Just saying.

Its so hard to be an apple fan.

Wouldn't the Pro be a better buy unless you need more memory and portability?
I like the MacBook a lot, love the quietness, I like the size and the screen suites me just fine.
Not sure I will need 256 storage but that is always debatable.
The Pro has a bigger screen, better speakers, a faster processor, is cheaper, so outside of someone wanting either more memory and more storage wouldn't the pro make more sense?

This past weekend there was a sale on the Pro the 256 model that was the exact same price as the MacBook. I said that would be a great purchase because you get all the upgrades and the same amount of memory for 1300 so your are saving 200 off the normal price off 1500.

Part of me even wants to snag the Pro at 1150 even at 128gb. I do prefer the MacBook for the size.

Also you get more ports on the pro and doesn't the Pro has a slightly better screen compared to the Macbook?


---When are new MacBooks supposed to be released anyway?
[doublepost=1526311336][/doublepost]I also forgot to mention the better speakers and better facetime camera. Small things to me but for the price I am like hmmm... I guess I am talking myself into the pro, it is cheaper with more features. TomScott I am just curious to hear your stance, maybe your opinion can sway me back to the MacBook.

 

[tomscott1988]

Wouldn't the Pro be a better buy unless you need more memory and portability?
I like the MacBook a lot, love the quietness, I like the size and the screen suites me just fine.
Not sure I will need 256 storage but that is always debatable.
The Pro has a bigger screen, better speakers, a faster processor, is cheaper, so outside of someone wanting either more memory and more storage wouldn't the pro make more sense?

This past weekend there was a sale on the Pro the 256 model that was the exact same price as the MacBook. I said that would be a great purchase because you get all the upgrades and the same amount of memory for 1300 so your are saving 200 off the normal price off 1500.

Part of me even wants to snag the Pro at 1150 even at 128gb. I do prefer the MacBook for the size.

Also you get more ports on the pro and doesn't the Pro has a slightly better screen compared to the Macbook?


---When are new MacBooks supposed to be released anyway?
[doublepost=1526311336][/doublepost]I also forgot to mention the better speakers and better facetime camera. Small things to me but for the price I am like hmmm... I guess I am talking myself into the pro, it is cheaper with more features. TomScott I am just curious to hear your stance, maybe your opinion can sway me back to the MacBook.

Ye I wouldn't bother if im honest but im not you.

You can read my comments above about the speed differences. Its going to make very little difference day to day, but you buy a machine for your uses.

Nobody knows when the new ones will be released but WWDC in June will be on the money. Quad core processors in the 13" macbook pro for the same price will certainly make it a far more compelling choice and give the product line a more obvious difference, easier to make decisions.

Im not sure the macbook pro has any additional features really apart from two ports and a higher watt cpu. The macbook has incredible speakers for its size... that wouldnt be a reason for me to upgrade, I have some pretty awesome speakers in my house I airplay too so doesn't bother me too much.

The power vs weight at the moment its not worth buying a pro over a macbook in the same price brackets, especially a 128. No idea how people do anything on them, once you have your OS a few images and some music thats the drive done. I struggle with 256 not like you can upgrade later. The 2 port macbook pro also has overheating issues. In my mind you get a machine thats not that much more powerful, less internal memory for the same price...

At the end of the day they are on sale because the new ones are estimated to arrive within a month.

If the 13" gets a powerful quad core it would swing it the other way and be worth the money if it stays the same price with more ports and if the macbook doesnt get an update. If it doesnt get an update its pretty certain it will probably get a small price drop.

Depends on your needs. The macbook being 90% but a lot slimmer, lighter and silent... the paper specs dont do it justice, its when you use it. I like it because its no compromise lightweight computing.

Ive got to be honest I dont like the current 13" its expensive for what it is and the base model doesn't offer enough. The high end is exactly the same. I think 2018 will solve this and a lot of the issues will be resolved that are pretty big deal breakers in the 16/17 models.

The macbook is also expensive for what it is. I think it should be under £1000, but who knows.

Its time for a shake up will 2018 be the year?

 

[Dodgeman]

Ye I wouldn't bother if im honest but im not you.

You can read my comments above about the speed differences. Its going to make very little difference day to day, but you buy a machine for your uses.

Nobody knows when the new ones will be released but WWDC in June will be on the money. Quad core processors in the 13" macbook pro for the same price will certainly make it a far more compelling choice and give the product line a more obvious difference, easier to make decisions.

Im not sure the macbook pro has any additional features really apart from two ports and a higher watt cpu. The macbook has incredible speakers for its size... that wouldnt be a reason for me to upgrade, I have some pretty awesome speakers in my house I airplay too so doesn't bother me too much.

The power vs weight at the moment its not worth buying a pro over a macbook in the same price brackets, especially a 128. No idea how people do anything on them, once you have your OS a few images and some music thats the drive done. I struggle with 256 not like you can upgrade later. The 2 port macbook pro also has overheating issues. In my mind you get a machine thats not that much more powerful, less internal memory for the same price...

At the end of the day they are on sale because the new ones are estimated to arrive within a month.

If the 13" gets a powerful quad core it would swing it the other way and be worth the money if it stays the same price with more ports and if the macbook doesnt get an update. If it doesnt get an update its pretty certain it will probably get a small price drop.

Depends on your needs. The macbook being 90% but a lot slimmer, lighter and silent... the paper specs dont do it justice, its when you use it. I like it because its no compromise lightweight computing.

Ive got to be honest I dont like the current 13" its expensive for what it is and the base model doesn't offer enough. The high end is exactly the same. I think 2018 will solve this and a lot of the issues will be resolved that are pretty big deal breakers in the 16/17 models.

The macbook is also expensive for what it is. I think it should be under £1000, but who knows.

Its time for a shake up will 2018 be the year?

So you are saying it would be a no go for you on the 128gb Pro? ($1150)
The MacBook is 256gb ($1300)
I do not know I use that much memory.
Now here is where it could get tricky.

I can purchase
128gb Pro for $1219 w/tax
256 Macbook $1294 w/tax (+71 more than pro)
Or 1299 plus tax worse case for a pro 256.

All the prices for me are close and not 100% sure what to go with.

Seems more people prefer the smaller Macbook regardless of specs.
[doublepost=1526323672][/doublepost]

Ye I wouldn't bother if im honest but im not you.

You can read my comments above about the speed differences. Its going to make very little difference day to day, but you buy a machine for your uses.

Nobody knows when the new ones will be released but WWDC in June will be on the money. Quad core processors in the 13" macbook pro for the same price will certainly make it a far more compelling choice and give the product line a more obvious difference, easier to make decisions.

Im not sure the macbook pro has any additional features really apart from two ports and a higher watt cpu. The macbook has incredible speakers for its size... that wouldnt be a reason for me to upgrade, I have some pretty awesome speakers in my house I airplay too so doesn't bother me too much.

The power vs weight at the moment its not worth buying a pro over a macbook in the same price brackets, especially a 128. No idea how people do anything on them, once you have your OS a few images and some music thats the drive done. I struggle with 256 not like you can upgrade later. The 2 port macbook pro also has overheating issues. In my mind you get a machine thats not that much more powerful, less internal memory for the same price...

At the end of the day they are on sale because the new ones are estimated to arrive within a month.

If the 13" gets a powerful quad core it would swing it the other way and be worth the money if it stays the same price with more ports and if the macbook doesnt get an update. If it doesnt get an update its pretty certain it will probably get a small price drop.

Depends on your needs. The macbook being 90% but a lot slimmer, lighter and silent... the paper specs dont do it justice, its when you use it. I like it because its no compromise lightweight computing.

Ive got to be honest I dont like the current 13" its expensive for what it is and the base model doesn't offer enough. The high end is exactly the same. I think 2018 will solve this and a lot of the issues will be resolved that are pretty big deal breakers in the 16/17 models.

The macbook is also expensive for what it is. I think it should be under £1000, but who knows.

Its time for a shake up will 2018 be the year?

By the way, what all is using up the memeory on your 256?
Do you have an image that shows what is taking up space?

 

[Dave245]

Well I think by looking at the specs it’s fairly easy to tell the difference and all are in different categories of the same idea. Entry, mid, high.

The difference is windows has a tablet version of windows enables on windows 10 which is like a tablet windows OS but you can also use the fully fledged windows 10 in windows mode. Essentially look at it running OS X and iOS at the same time.

There are many positives to iOS and Mac OS and as many negatives and bringing some of each features has already happened.

Like you say the implementation isn’t the best in the surface but I like the idea. Best of both worlds.

Tim Cook can say what he pleases really he’s a business man and the current Apple lineup is his doing. He’s not an innovator neither is he really passionate about the products. He has done his job in ensuring apples $ is increasing but the magic of those products, the excitement with the actually delivery of world class products has gone.

He would rather you buy a MacBook and an iPad Pro because he can get another near £1000 out of you. Whereas the surface was made to hit that mid range basing able to do both.

Yet if your honest with yourself the iPad it’s a not a productive tool it’s a nice addition but doesn’t really fill any need in a “post pc era”. It could be so much more but they won’t allow it because it will be the end of the Mac and vice Versa.

I suppose it’s hard to see where apples direction is they have diluted their own product lines where too many products overlap and there isn’t enough to justify the difference.

Neither are they looking at the technologies they have and making interesting products they are almost predictable every year.

It’s time for a shake up. Can’t see it happening tho.

You could take it from the perspective of what more does it need to do it’s a tertiary product. Apple was never like that it was always on the cusp of something else now it’s just offering the same old same old in a more expensive price point to ensure sales figures don’t decrease.

The Mac isn’t selling more it’s selling less at a higher price point.

I think I understand the idea of the Surface Pro but then why the Surface Book? With the idea of what it’s suppose to be but the implementation not as good isn’t that what Cook was saying about it being a compromise?

I do get what your saying tho having to spend close to £1900 on a MacBook 12” and then also owning a 12.9” iPad Pro that cost me over £1000 for the 512GB storage option is harsh but then the Surface line up isn’t cheap either. The iPad Pro I use mainly for drawing, watching Netflix, YouTube videos and note taking but I don’t write on it like I do with my Mac it just doesn’t feel a comfortable or the same when using a computer.

The problem is all this talk of the “post PC area” has it really happened? People still use their computers whether they are Mac’s or even Surfaces. I do think Apple need to do more in order to move forward, when someone like myself ends up spending months and months going backwards and forwards declining which machine to buy it becomes a problem, if it wasn’t for the fact that I’m not a Windows fan I may have crossed over the dark side and at least tried a Surface device, but being in the Apple ecosystem that is a no-no.

 

[tomscott1988]

Well thats what I mean.

The surface laptop is a MacBook competitor with a low fat version of windows 10 similar to a chrome book but you can install the full fat version of windows 10.

The surface pro is a competitor throughout the range, it can be specced to the absolute minimum to a fairly powerful machine. Its essentially an iPad with a full desktop OS and you can add a keyboard like the iPad. From £700-2500. Essentially its designed to compete with the iPad, MacBook, air and 13" MacBook pro.

The surface book is the powerhouse. Essentially the MacBook pro competitor. Which is a 2 in one or convertible.

Essentially 4 products. The naming strategy isn't really that brilliant. Really the surface pro and the surface book should be the other way round.

For example the surface book 2 13" has a quad core and a 1050. The 1050 is more powerful than the 560 in the 15" MacBook pro and because its Nvidia, programs for creatives work far better. The 13" is bigger than the 13" MacBook pro and it is heavier so it is another compromise but essentially you are getting performance that is somewhere between the 13" and 15". The selling point is that the main computer is held in the screen and you can detach it and use it as a tablet in tablet mode , it also has a battery built in and a discrete graphics card.

The base holds the graphics card and the another battery, when you need some more power from the graphics card you can dock the screen and use it as a normal laptop with the keyboard.

The main issue is that the tablet version of windows isn't really that brilliant, that being said I don't think it would be that difficult to implement. The 13" is £2500 with an i7 quad a 16gb 512 ssd and dedicated graphics card and its a 2 in one. Compare that to the 13" MacBook pro and its a dual core i7 512 and integrated graphics and it £2400.

Regardless of whether you would use the tablet the fact is you can use it for painting etc in your lap just like an iPad and its essentially £100 more expensive. It is so easy to find discounted too. Ive been very tempted to try one.

As with all newish products it has its downsides. It struggles like the MacBook pro with throttling, the CPU is also an ultrabook version so a lower watt similar to that of the two port macbook pro. It has also had issues with reliability and obviously the main thing is that it runs windows.

The positives is that its a very interesting product and you can use it like the above you can attach it to a desktop and use it as a cintique. It also has the graphics card which is hugely powerful compared to anything the mac offers and the creative suite runs far better on the NVIDIA cards. The other nice thing is you can connect an xbox controller and use machine as a decent solution for gaming, if thats an interest.

The screen can also be tilted round the opposite way to watch films or to draw on.

The main draw for me as a photographer is I can use the pen which is apparently excellent to make adjustments on a full fat app lightroom classic, not something like Lightroom CC cloud which is similar but lacks half the functionality.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/sto...icid=Cat-Surface-HypNav3-Surface-Book-2-EN-GB

Im not saying its perfect, I just like the direction. I think that apple could make a very well polished machine that runs very well as a laptop and as an iPad that you could use in a similar way. The iPad already has the dock that the keyboard fits, similar to the surface. Its also nice that it still has legacy ports.

It would also help get around the fact that everything in the MacBook pro is in the base, the surface uses space behind the screen for more battery and the majority of the power.

When I look at products like this and I look at the products I've used from apple it just feels frustrating. The fact even in the 13" SB2 offers full dedicated graphics which are so important for the majority of the creative cloud apps and the 13" MacBook pro is stuck with integrated which are so slow in comparison. According to benchmarks the 1050 is 170% faster than the intel 650 integrated graphics that literally insane. The MacBook pros, airs and MacBooks ive owned have not done anything different. Infact i still have my first 17" 2006 MacBook pro and although old and runs older software it still has the same use case.

I think for many they like the idea of the iPad but people get confused on why to use it if you have a mac. Its strengths in my mind are web browsing and media consumption, but then the iPad is a pain to hold, a laptop has a base so it can stand on its own and its so much nicer to use a proper keyboard... even with the pen once you have it on the iPad many apps aren't 100% compatible or the productivity apps are reduced feature versions of apps people use... why would you want to use apps that don't have full functionality? Plus a lot of these apps need a keyboard and mouse to be productive.

Like you say many times you don't know which to use or which is better. Doesn't really fill you with confidence for a product that is like you say £1000 and can't do everything.

There are positives and IOS has taken pieces from mac os like the dock, multi app support which are really great additions. It obviously has the fantastic touch screen and pen but the apps aren't as useful as desktop apps. It also has the app store which is rife with creativity yet the mac app store is stagnant, why? Mac OS has the benefit of being a proper OS and a keyboard. There are great technologies on both and they have had the tech for years.

So to me its nothing more than an indulgent purchase that wouldn't really benefit me because everything works better on the laptop so in essence it hasn't solved the post pc era.

What it does offer I think could very much improve the desktop variants and think there is room.

In all honesty where else is there to go with it? I think a merger is inevitable, I don't know why they couldn't test the water and make a new product line.

Ditch the Air replace it with the MacBook with a reduced price, keep the macbook pro so the purists have an original option and bring a new line with a hybrid OS that is touch, mouse, keyboard an pen support and go from there.

The thing is the MacBook pro is the gold standard, spec didn't used to really mean a lot because the software was so polished, thats not the case anymore. Also they used to offer varied hardware now they use one graphics vendor which doesn't fulfil the need of the majority of the users anymore. Adobe doesn't care, there still isn't another suite that is even close to what CC offers regardless of all these new comers. CC is like 35 years in the making and apple are too stubborn and have had too many feuds with companies like NVIDIA and Adobe. There has been rumours for years about apple buying adobe...

Anyway its just hard to sit back and be happy with keyboards that are poor to type on and also incredibly unreliable. The main reason for the form factor of all apple laptops is a full size keyboard and they have ruined it. The ports or lack of, TB3 will be amazing and I swapped all my usb cables out for USB C to Micro B so there was no dongle life for me but no SD slot... thats silly.

The speed issue isn't really apples fault, its an issue with intel not innovating also huge slump in the last few years. Apple seem to be trying to address this with their own custom silicon but this isn't going to be an overnight change the whole operating system will need rewriting... you could say the last few versions have been buggy because of this... similar to the power PC to Intel move but who knows.

The Touch Bar... again probably not a terrible release but the implementation in notebooks that were over £1500 was a mistake. It was meant to be an up sell but people pay more money for power not gimmicks and they got gimmicks not power... for it to be universally adopted it should be on every mac product including the desktop keyboards even if they needed constant power from USB.

Price... well there is only one reason for this, I doubt it is production, lowering sales. The solution to lower sales, increase the price and the majority of the following will buy. People can say the retina is expensive but come on in a world of 4 and 5k displays a 2k retina thats been in production since 2012 is the reason? Or a small OLED display... £400 more really... for a mid range laptop... then replace the old price scheme products with laptops that have lower watt, lower powered processors with inadequate cooling and two ports... when the 2015 had - Two Thunderbolt 2 ports, Two USB 3 ports, HDMI port and a SDXC card slot. Yes you can use one port for multiple but what a faf nice to just plug cables in when you need to.

The list goes on, the pro isn't the no compromise pro machine it once was and I think the market generally is getting wise to it. With products like the surface pushing the boundary of what a notebook is apple has done nothing but take more features away.

 

[csurfr]

Well, from my side of things, I returned a 2017 15" MacBook Pro that I used for all of my on the go coding (Visual Studio Code) and picked up a 2015 MacBook for right around 600.00. I originally planned to use it as a bridge between now and WWDC in June. However, with a 5k iMac on my desk at home, I think the MacBook is perfectly fine. It really all depends on use case, and whether or not it's going to be your only machine. If you do the retina scaling hack that @thadoggfather posted here: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/scale-1680x1050-on-rmb-without-an-app.1873910/ it's even better.

 

[Dodgeman]

Well, from my side of things, I returned a 2017 15" MacBook Pro that I used for all of my on the go coding (Visual Studio Code) and picked up a 2015 MacBook for right around 600.00. I originally planned to use it as a bridge between now and WWDC in June. However, with a 5k iMac on my desk at home, I think the MacBook is perfectly fine. It really all depends on use case, and whether or not it's going to be your only machine. If you do the retina scaling hack that @thadoggfather posted here: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/scale-1680x1050-on-rmb-without-an-app.1873910/ it's even better.

Where did you find the 2015 model for $600???
Does not seem like the worst idea I guess.

 

[csurfr]

Where did you find the 2015 model for $600???
Does not seem like the worst idea I guess.

Local guy selling on OfferUP. It's not fantastical, but 1.1 Core M, 8gb / 256gb. Only 94 battery cycles, original box and what not. No shiny keys, scratches, dents, etc. Looks new. For 600.00 I'd say it wasn't a bad purchase. Even if it is quite a bit slower than my 15" was.

 

[Dodgeman]

Local guy selling on OfferUP. It's not fantastical, but 1.1 Core M, 8gb / 256gb. Only 94 battery cycles, original box and what not. No shiny keys, scratches, dents, etc. Looks new. For 600.00 I'd say it wasn't a bad purchase. Even if it is quite a bit slower than my 15" was.

Well only issue I saw was you said you spent $600 to hold you over to the new models... lol.
I have the 17 MB, 1.2 M3 with 8gb memory and 256 storage.
How were you able to find out the battery cycles??

 

[csurfr]

Well only issue I saw was you said you spent $600 to hold you over to the new models... lol.
I have the 17 MB, 1.2 M3 with 8gb memory and 256 storage.
How were you able to find out the battery cycles??

Click on the Apple and choose "About this Mac" then choose System Profile and click on Power on the left hand side. I actually didn't spend a true 600.00... I sold my iPad Pro which I hadn't used in quite a while. Also, it seems that the 2015 are going for about 700 on eBay, so I should be able to offload this one for my purchase price down the road should I want to.

All of that said, It feels so weird typing on this thing. I feel like I'm going to break it, it's so tiny!

And honestly, since I don't really need that much power on the go, I might just end up rocking this thing for a while. . . Good thing JavaScript / PHP / HTML / CSS don't require any kind of real processing.

 

[Dave245]

Well thats what I mean.

The surface laptop is a MacBook competitor with a low fat version of windows 10 similar to a chrome book but you can install the full fat version of windows 10.

The surface pro is a competitor throughout the range, it can be specced to the absolute minimum to a fairly powerful machine. Its essentially an iPad with a full desktop OS and you can add a keyboard like the iPad. From £700-2500. Essentially its designed to compete with the iPad, MacBook, air and 13" MacBook pro.

The surface book is the powerhouse. Essentially the MacBook pro competitor. Which is a 2 in one or convertible.

Essentially 4 products. The naming strategy isn't really that brilliant. Really the surface pro and the surface book should be the other way round.

For example the surface book 2 13" has a quad core and a 1050. The 1050 is more powerful than the 560 in the 15" MacBook pro and because its Nvidia, programs for creatives work far better. The 13" is bigger than the 13" MacBook pro and it is heavier so it is another compromise but essentially you are getting performance that is somewhere between the 13" and 15". The selling point is that the main computer is held in the screen and you can detach it and use it as a tablet in tablet mode , it also has a battery built in and a discrete graphics card.

The base holds the graphics card and the another battery, when you need some more power from the graphics card you can dock the screen and use it as a normal laptop with the keyboard.

The main issue is that the tablet version of windows isn't really that brilliant, that being said I don't think it would be that difficult to implement. The 13" is £2500 with an i7 quad a 16gb 512 ssd and dedicated graphics card and its a 2 in one. Compare that to the 13" MacBook pro and its a dual core i7 512 and integrated graphics and it £2400.

Regardless of whether you would use the tablet the fact is you can use it for painting etc in your lap just like an iPad and its essentially £100 more expensive. It is so easy to find discounted too. Ive been very tempted to try one.

As with all newish products it has its downsides. It struggles like the MacBook pro with throttling, the CPU is also an ultrabook version so a lower watt similar to that of the two port macbook pro. It has also had issues with reliability and obviously the main thing is that it runs windows.

The positives is that its a very interesting product and you can use it like the above you can attach it to a desktop and use it as a cintique. It also has the graphics card which is hugely powerful compared to anything the mac offers and the creative suite runs far better on the NVIDIA cards. The other nice thing is you can connect an xbox controller and use machine as a decent solution for gaming, if thats an interest.

The screen can also be tilted round the opposite way to watch films or to draw on.

The main draw for me as a photographer is I can use the pen which is apparently excellent to make adjustments on a full fat app lightroom classic, not something like Lightroom CC cloud which is similar but lacks half the functionality.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/sto...icid=Cat-Surface-HypNav3-Surface-Book-2-EN-GB

Im not saying its perfect, I just like the direction. I think that apple could make a very well polished machine that runs very well as a laptop and as an iPad that you could use in a similar way. The iPad already has the dock that the keyboard fits, similar to the surface. Its also nice that it still has legacy ports.

It would also help get around the fact that everything in the MacBook pro is in the base, the surface uses space behind the screen for more battery and the majority of the power.

When I look at products like this and I look at the products I've used from apple it just feels frustrating. The fact even in the 13" SB2 offers full dedicated graphics which are so important for the majority of the creative cloud apps and the 13" MacBook pro is stuck with integrated which are so slow in comparison. According to benchmarks the 1050 is 170% faster than the intel 650 integrated graphics that literally insane. The MacBook pros, airs and MacBooks ive owned have not done anything different. Infact i still have my first 17" 2006 MacBook pro and although old and runs older software it still has the same use case.

I think for many they like the idea of the iPad but people get confused on why to use it if you have a mac. Its strengths in my mind are web browsing and media consumption, but then the iPad is a pain to hold, a laptop has a base so it can stand on its own and its so much nicer to use a proper keyboard... even with the pen once you have it on the iPad many apps aren't 100% compatible or the productivity apps are reduced feature versions of apps people use... why would you want to use apps that don't have full functionality? Plus a lot of these apps need a keyboard and mouse to be productive.

Like you say many times you don't know which to use or which is better. Doesn't really fill you with confidence for a product that is like you say £1000 and can't do everything.

There are positives and IOS has taken pieces from mac os like the dock, multi app support which are really great additions. It obviously has the fantastic touch screen and pen but the apps aren't as useful as desktop apps. It also has the app store which is rife with creativity yet the mac app store is stagnant, why? Mac OS has the benefit of being a proper OS and a keyboard. There are great technologies on both and they have had the tech for years.

So to me its nothing more than an indulgent purchase that wouldn't really benefit me because everything works better on the laptop so in essence it hasn't solved the post pc era.

What it does offer I think could very much improve the desktop variants and think there is room.

In all honesty where else is there to go with it? I think a merger is inevitable, I don't know why they couldn't test the water and make a new product line.

Ditch the Air replace it with the MacBook with a reduced price, keep the macbook pro so the purists have an original option and bring a new line with a hybrid OS that is touch, mouse, keyboard an pen support and go from there.

The thing is the MacBook pro is the gold standard, spec didn't used to really mean a lot because the software was so polished, thats not the case anymore. Also they used to offer varied hardware now they use one graphics vendor which doesn't fulfil the need of the majority of the users anymore. Adobe doesn't care, there still isn't another suite that is even close to what CC offers regardless of all these new comers. CC is like 35 years in the making and apple are too stubborn and have had too many feuds with companies like NVIDIA and Adobe. There has been rumours for years about apple buying adobe...

Anyway its just hard to sit back and be happy with keyboards that are poor to type on and also incredibly unreliable. The main reason for the form factor of all apple laptops is a full size keyboard and they have ruined it. The ports or lack of, TB3 will be amazing and I swapped all my usb cables out for USB C to Micro B so there was no dongle life for me but no SD slot... thats silly.

The speed issue isn't really apples fault, its an issue with intel not innovating also huge slump in the last few years. Apple seem to be trying to address this with their own custom silicon but this isn't going to be an overnight change the whole operating system will need rewriting... you could say the last few versions have been buggy because of this... similar to the power PC to Intel move but who knows.

The Touch Bar... again probably not a terrible release but the implementation in notebooks that were over £1500 was a mistake. It was meant to be an up sell but people pay more money for power not gimmicks and they got gimmicks not power... for it to be universally adopted it should be on every mac product including the desktop keyboards even if they needed constant power from USB.

Price... well there is only one reason for this, I doubt it is production, lowering sales. The solution to lower sales, increase the price and the majority of the following will buy. People can say the retina is expensive but come on in a world of 4 and 5k displays a 2k retina thats been in production since 2012 is the reason? Or a small OLED display... £400 more really... for a mid range laptop... then replace the old price scheme products with laptops that have lower watt, lower powered processors with inadequate cooling and two ports... when the 2015 had - Two Thunderbolt 2 ports, Two USB 3 ports, HDMI port and a SDXC card slot. Yes you can use one port for multiple but what a faf nice to just plug cables in when you need to.

The list goes on, the pro isn't the no compromise pro machine it once was and I think the market generally is getting wise to it. With products like the surface pushing the boundary of what a notebook is apple has done nothing but take more features away.

I think Windows 10 is the problem, i've not used it personally but a lot of people seem to complain about it compared to MacOS. The one thing i think that Apple haven't tackled properly yet is in the conflict between the Mac and the iPad, each device is fighting for use, for example i can watch Netflix on my iPad Pro brilliantly i can edit photos on my iPad Pro and also draw on it, but on my Mac i can write documents professionally (ie proposals, scripts and so on) but it seems that both devices are fighting to be used if i can pick up my iPad should i really need a Mac? is the question i ask myself sometimes. The problem is that i can't complete all of my work on my iPad Pro.

The problem is would a hybrid by Apple solve all those problems? Microsoft seem to having issues with sales, i can't say 100% because i don't know for sure i can only go off articles i've read online and we all know how unreliable they can be, i do wonder if Apple will answer the Surface type device further down the line or will they ignore it? is part of their plan to simply make the iPad Pro more like a laptop OR will they forever keep it as a companion type device for those of us who do more? only they can answer the question. I do know that they seem passionate about not making a Surface type of device. In the past it's not only been Tim Cook who's taken a swipe at the Surface line but also Phil Schiller so i think for as long as they are around Apple will probably stay in it's current belief.

The price is a factor for many people, the fact that the MacBook Pro increased in price in 2016 didn't help, the Touch Bar is arguable as i know people who like it. There is then the 12" MacBook which really is impressive when it comes to how thin light and just the overall design, BUT again for the every day user it is expensive even with my work "perks" discount the 12" MacBook will start at £1,173.60, i have had people say why don't you get a Surface as a writer it would be great for you, the simple answer i give is because of Windows! MacOS has been so simple and easy to use since i switched from Windows in 2011 that i wouldn't want to go back, that's not to say that Widows hasn't changed since 2011 it probably has in a lot of ways.

 

[tomscott1988]

I think Windows 10 is the problem, i've not used it personally but a lot of people seem to complain about it compared to MacOS. The one thing i think that Apple haven't tackled properly yet is in the conflict between the Mac and the iPad, each device is fighting for use, for example i can watch Netflix on my iPad Pro brilliantly i can edit photos on my iPad Pro and also draw on it, but on my Mac i can write documents professionally (ie proposals, scripts and so on) but it seems that both devices are fighting to be used if i can pick up my iPad should i really need a Mac? is the question i ask myself sometimes. The problem is that i can't complete all of my work on my iPad Pro.

The problem is would a hybrid by Apple solve all those problems? Microsoft seem to having issues with sales, i can't say 100% because i don't know for sure i can only go off articles i've read online and we all know how unreliable they can be, i do wonder if Apple will answer the Surface type device further down the line or will they ignore it? is part of their plan to simply make the iPad Pro more like a laptop OR will they forever keep it as a companion type device for those of us who do more? only they can answer the question. I do know that they seem passionate about not making a Surface type of device. In the past it's not only been Tim Cook who's taken a swipe at the Surface line but also Phil Schiller so i think for as long as they are around Apple will probably stay in it's current belief.

The price is a factor for many people, the fact that the MacBook Pro increased in price in 2016 didn't help, the Touch Bar is arguable as i know people who like it. There is then the 12" MacBook which really is impressive when it comes to how thin light and just the overall design, BUT again for the every day user it is expensive even with my work "perks" discount the 12" MacBook will start at £1,173.60, i have had people say why don't you get a Surface as a writer it would be great for you, the simple answer i give is because of Windows! MacOS has been so simple and easy to use since i switched from Windows in 2011 that i wouldn't want to go back, that's not to say that Widows hasn't changed since 2011 it probably has in a lot of ways.

I generally think the sales are slow because they are directly in line with apple products but apple products tend to have a fairly safe purchase and sell price whereas historically pc prices do not.

I now use windows all day because apple havent made a workstation that fits my needs and ive got to be honest the first week I hated it. Now i dont mind it and have been using it for about 18 months. There is so much more control which being a techy I like but its not overly stable which is the reason I switched to the mac in the first place. I use my macbook for everything else and really enjoy it.

TBH I wouldnt read much into what apple say. They would never make a stylus either.. etc etc they wouldnt let anything on anyway... of corse they would say the competition isnt ideal... All part of the marketing machine.

Its just the direction VR and AR are the future but in personal computing? I dont know really. I cant see the ipad being the option without the OS maturing. For most real application a mouse and keyboard is still key and there is a reason after 10 years the ipad still doesnt have all these app or the pro apps havent moved over and it still hasnt taken over any tasks but simple ones.

Again for anything but the pen the mac can do as well and the main advantage is the file system. Ive always argued that the ipad should have matured faster than IOS on the phone. Just have to look at the way its designed how the UI on the home screen looks... just scaled to a bigger device not designed for it.

It feels like apple were letting the mac slip but regardless of their sales they are the key to IOS apps and support.

I dont know whats going on but I dont feel there is some magic answer around the corner if anything by the recent releases. The iMac pro.. pretty cool machine but it is a parts bin special, why wasnt its own custom design? That chassis was released in 2012 and the actual design to me looks old. Its nice and market leading but apple used to be one that would not let products fall by the wayside. The macbook pro is actually a lovely design but its implementation and what they took away... the thermal constraints of the 5k imac and the fact the graphics chips arent powerful enough to run that display smoothly.

Like a big middle finger to any power users. The consumers have loads of options but what? and there are so many cross over use cases. I wouldnt want a £1000 ipad i use occasionally and a £2000 macbook that i use the rest of the time. Look back in history and even the low end laptops werent that crazy money. My 11" air with 512 8gbs and an i7 was £1300 essentially not much more than the entry price of the macbook now... and it had ports.

I could go on and on. I think apple knows there is a problem and im sure their sales will tell them more than we can speculate. There are too many products too many cross overs and non of them are ideal there are shortfalls everywhere you look.

With the revival of the Pro line hopefully the rest will become more focused and they will sort it out. The problem is 2018 is a mid year 2019 2020 is the 4 year turn around so to me it looks like put up and shut up or move on. Or play the waiting game.

Im frustrated because my air was stolen in 2017 and the macbook pro wasnt what i wanted. I ended up begrudgingly buying the macbook knowing it wasn't perfect and in many ways annoys me but its form factor is what im after and i have grown to love it. Thats not generally my experience with apple I am usually desperate to get my hands on the products. The saving grace is that i only paid about £650 not 2k crazy money really.

 

[Dodgeman]

Click on the Apple and choose "About this Mac" then choose System Profile and click on Power on the left hand side. I actually didn't spend a true 600.00... I sold my iPad Pro which I hadn't used in quite a while. Also, it seems that the 2015 are going for about 700 on eBay, so I should be able to offload this one for my purchase price down the road should I want to.

All of that said, It feels so weird typing on this thing. I feel like I'm going to break it, it's so tiny!

And honestly, since I don't really need that much power on the go, I might just end up rocking this thing for a while. . . Good thing JavaScript / PHP / HTML / CSS don't require any kind of real processing.

I might need to take a look at ebay then and see if I can find something in that price range.

 

[EugW]

Here in Canada, IBM was selling the 2015 and the 2016 MacBook last year for about US$700 refurb with IBM warranty in certain markets.

I chose instead to pay full edu price for the 2017 because I hated the 2015/2016 keyboard and wanted the performance and multimedia upgrades in the 2017 too. I was not interested in the much larger and heavier MacBook Pro.

However, not only do I get edu pricing, I also get a partial break in the cost through work, so the price difference doesn’t sting as much.

The 2017 MacBook keyboard is not awesome, but it’s not bad, and light-years better than the 2015/2016 MacBook keyboard.

 

[tomscott1988]

Im not keen on the 2015 keyboard either. I still use the original chicklet wired apple full length keyboard with all my desktops.

Saying that I haven't had a single issue with my keyboard but I keep it clean and dont eat while using it. Its not perfect but its certainly useable and you get used to it quickly. I dont really find the noise annoying either as the desktop keyboard makes a duller click but its just as loud.

On the other hand all the keyboards from 2015 onward with the butterfly mechanism are effected so non of them are great reliable options going forward without apple care.

I bought mine in March 2017 used. It was a August 2015 build with about 50 cycles, pretty much imaculate. Its the base model 1.1 256 8gbs and cost £1049 new. Who ever bought it, bought it with apple care which doesnt run out until August 2018. The AC was £229, so £1278.

I didnt switch the AC over so the old it is only warranted for the original purchaser is false. It did have had 2 dead pixels when I bought it so as soon as I got it took it to apple no problem replaced it and they turned it around in 3 days. Ive recently had it replaced again, I had issues of the keyboard metal surround scratching the screen, huge line all the way across above center from the metal surround where the trackpad meets the keyboard.

Seems to be a normal thing every apple laptop ive ever had has done this which is super annoying, had the screen replaced at least once in the 3 years I owned every one. I think when you put it in a bag either at the front or in the back the pressure from the bag ultimately puts pressure on the screen, likewise if you have a bag where the laptop compartment is at you back all the contents squash it. At the end of the day its a laptop... It should be able to take the hammer but the tolerances are so small and there are no rubber stoppers like their used to be on the original aluminum macbook pro.

Worth having apple care the screen replacements were over £450 each without AC.

I paid £650 for it pre owned from CEX which is a preowned electronic store in the UK.

Interestingly the new ones have gone up in price with the baseline being £1249 for the 2017 over £1049 in 2015 for the same baseline specification.

Here in the UK the EDU discounts used to be substantial but now they are similar to corporate perks which isnt much more than 10%. With EDU you get the AC for a fraction of the price. Bought my father an base 5k iMac for Christmas and im pretty certain the AC was only £30. My cousin is a research scientist working at a uni so got him to purchase it for me.

Back in the day my first mac in 2006 was the top end 17" MBP and when I got that with EDU they gave me the iLife suite which at the time was £100, also iWork which was about £50, AC was included for free, I also got a really nice laptop carry case forget the brand but it was Italian which I seem to remember was around £100 and I saved about 25% on the laptop and you got discounts on the upgrades so I maxed it out.

They really had a pro attitude about getting the mac into the hands of students back then. Really fantastic at the time it got me completely on my feet.

Barely get anything now just 10% off. Funny how the company has changed, this was before the iPhone and the mac and the iPod were the focus of the company. Now the iPod doesnt exist and the Mac line is in the worst state its ever been.

 

[EugW]

Im not keen on the 2015 keyboard either. I still use the original chicklet wired apple full length keyboard with all my desktops.

Saying that I haven't had a single issue with my keyboard but I keep it clean and dont eat while using it. Its not perfect but its certainly useable and you get used to it quickly. I dont really find the noise annoying either as the desktop keyboard makes a duller click but its just as loud.

On the other hand all the keyboards from 2015 onward with the butterfly mechanism are effected so non of them are great reliable options going forward without apple care.

-- snip --

Here in the UK the EDU discounts used to be substantial but now they are similar to corporate perks which isnt much more than 10%. With EDU you get the AC for a fraction of the price. Bought my father an base 5k iMac for Christmas and im pretty certain the AC was only £30. My cousin is a research scientist working at a uni so got him to purchase it for me.

Back in the day my first mac in 2006 was the top end 17" MBP and when I got that with EDU they gave me the iLife suite which at the time was £100, also iWork which was about £50, AC was included for free, I also got a really nice laptop carry case forget the brand but it was Italian which I seem to remember was around £100 and I saved about 25% on the laptop and you got discounts on the upgrades so I maxed it out.

They really had a pro attitude about getting the mac into the hands of students back then. Really fantastic at the time it got me completely on my feet.

Barely get anything now just 10% off.

True, the edu discount for individuals is not huge, but it's still significant enough to matter, and the edu discount for institutions and departments is bigger. And as you say, AppleCare for edu is much cheaper, although these days I never get Apple Care with my sub-$2000 computers. I just make use of my credit card extended warranty, which adds an extra year and costs nothing. For my more expensive desktops, I may get AppleCare but that's partially because the cost on a percentage basis much less than with the laptops.

For example, for the base model MacBook, it's CAD$1659 for the MacBook and $251 (15.1%) for AppleCare.
In contrast, for the base model 27" iMac, it's $2259 and $185 (8.1%) for AppleCare.

In my case, for the 16 GB Core m3 MacBook, it's $1875 and $251 (13.4%) for AppleCare.
For the 3.5 GHz 27" iMac with 1 TB SSD and long keyboard, it's $3305 and $185 (5.6%) for AppleCare.

So I didn't bother with AppleCare for the MacBook, but got AppleCare for the iMac.

I should point out that the desktop full-length wired/wireless Magic Keyboard (it's functions both ways) with numeric keypad for the iMac is NOT butterfly. It has a "scissor" mechanism which is somewhat different. I like both the chicklet keyboard and the scissor mech keyboard, but the latter definitely has more stable keys, and both are better than the butterfly keyboard of the MacBook. However, the new Magic Keyboard for the iMac has shorter travel than the chicklet keyboard, so that's a negative.

BTW, the feel of the butterfly keyboard of the MacBook Pro is also better than the butterfly keyboard of the MacBook because the Pro's keyboard has a bit more travel.

 

[Dodgeman]

How do you guys know the charging cycle ofbthe computer?

 

[tomscott1988]

True, the edu discount for individuals is not huge, but it's still significant enough to matter, and the edu discount for institutions and departments is bigger. And as you say, AppleCare for edu is much cheaper, although these days I never get Apple Care with my sub-$2000 computers. I just make use of my credit card extended warranty, which adds an extra year and costs nothing. For my more expensive desktops, I may get AppleCare but that's partially because the cost on a percentage basis much less than with the laptops.

For example, for the base model MacBook, it's CAD$1659 for the MacBook and $251 (15.1%) for AppleCare.
In contrast, for the base model 27" iMac, it's $2259 and $185 (8.1%) for AppleCare.

In my case, for the 16 GB Core m3 MacBook, it's $1875 and $251 (13.4%) for AppleCare.
For the 3.5 GHz 27" iMac with 1 TB SSD and long keyboard, it's $3305 and $185 (5.6%) for AppleCare.

So I didn't bother with AppleCare for the MacBook, but got AppleCare for the iMac.

I should point out that the desktop full-length wired/wireless Magic Keyboard (it's functions both ways) with numeric keypad for the iMac is NOT butterfly. It has a "scissor" mechanism which is somewhat different. I like both the chicklet keyboard and the scissor mech keyboard, but the latter definitely has more stable keys, and both are better than the butterfly keyboard of the MacBook. However, the new Magic Keyboard for the iMac has shorter travel than the chicklet keyboard, so that's a negative.

BTW, the feel of the butterfly keyboard of the MacBook Pro is also better than the butterfly keyboard of the MacBook because the Pro's keyboard has a bit more travel.

Are those costs with EDU discount. Like I said only paid £30 for the 2017 5k iMac, which tbh isnt worth not buying as its so easy to just take it in and you get 3 years not 2. Pretty sure it was even cheaper with the macbook but I found this one that someone had already paid for it.

I was referencing earlier keyboard the A1243 not the 2015 magic keyboard. I really like the older keyboards, they arent overly reliable either had 4-5 of them since 2007.
[doublepost=1526397926][/doublepost]

How do you guys know the charging cycle ofbthe computer?

As csurfr has already said:

Click on the Apple icon top left. Choose "About this Mac"

then choose System Report...

and click on Power

 

[csurfr]

As csurfr has already said:

Click on the Apple icon top left. Choose "About this Mac"

then choose System Report...

and click on Power

Look at you being all fancy with the screenshots.

 

[EugW]

Are those costs with EDU discount. Like I said only paid £30 for the 2017 5k iMac, which tbh isnt worth not buying as its so easy to just take it in and you get 3 years not 2. Pretty sure it was even cheaper with the macbook but I found this one that someone had already paid for it.

The AppleCare prices I mentioned are edu pricing in Canada. The discounts aren't as good as they used to be.

MacBook Education AC: $251
MacBook Regular AC: $279

iMac Education AC: $185
iMac Regular AC: $199

Your £30 AC pricing is from where? That price is insanely low.

I was referencing earlier keyboard the A1243 not the 2015 magic keyboard. I really like the older keyboards, they arent overly reliable either had 4-5 of them since 2007.

My A1243 keyboards have been fine. No replacements. However, I use my machines less than a lot of people since I have multiple machines, so perhaps that has something to do with it.

 

[tomscott1988]

The AppleCare prices I mentioned are edu pricing in Canada. The discounts aren't as good as they used to be.

MacBook Education AC: $251
MacBook Regular AC: $279

iMac Education AC: $185
iMac Regular AC: $199

Your £30 AC pricing is from where? That price is insanely low.


My A1243 keyboards have been fine. No replacements. However, I use my machines less than a lot of people since I have multiple machines, so perhaps that has something to do with it.

Apologies I was over exaggerating, checked the invoice it was £65, the cost usually is £165. Still pretty good deal imo. It was from an institutional EDU log in. Same with all the other products, its so cheap it doesn't make sense not to. Might be one perk as in the UK under consumer law you get 6 years of warranty if the product doesn't perform correctly which gives you quite a good fall back. Basically they can't really refuse to repair or replace in that time frame here.

Ye my keyboards get some hammer. Ive had issues mainly with spacebars, once the key breaks the keyboards are done. Very difficult to fix.

 

[tomscott1988]

Its interesting that Lisa from mobile tech review, well respected tech youtube channel and a massive apple fan but has left the space since the 2016 MBP has just produced this video on the best laptop for photoshop and lightroom. Also the way she describes working is exactly what ive been talking about in this thread. This is also aimed at amateurs not professionals (like myself) who do work on thousands if images and 40+ hours on these my devices per week.

Guess what the MacBook pro isn't featured in the slightest and barely mentioned... yet it used to be the staple for photographers. Might be interesting for you dave245 to see what she says about the surface products and why they are turning heads. Also about how products that are two in ones or convertibles can be really useful with the pen.

Granted the MacBooks haven't got the latest gen CPUs yet which is probably why its not been featured. Just goes to show... the MacBook pro really is slipping from the lime light. 3-4 years ago there would be no doubt the MacBook pro would be no.1.