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could we make a car that runs off of alcohol?

MongoTheGeek said:
...The advantage comes in that while it releases huge amounts of CO2, all of that came from the atmosphere so it is carbon neutral....
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I have always hated the term carbon neutral. Technically burning oil is carbon neutral because it just got it carbon from some natural deposit that got its carbon from some sort of food which got its carbon from the plants that got their carbon from the atmosphere. Of course if we do not burn the oil that carbon will stay in the ground instead of being pumped into the atmosphere.

For some reason our society has really focused on CO2 as the worst culprit of auto exhaust, when, in my opinion, SOx, NOx, and Ozone are much worse offenders. Ethanol releases more ozone into the atmosphere which is much more dangerous than CO2 (at least in the short term).

http://www.relocalize.net/ethanol_pollution_worse_than_gasoline

The Bush administration has even allowed ethanol production plants to pollute more than other plants in order to spur the production of ethanol. The only benefit I see to this fuel is to reduce our dependency on foreign oil and to make our farmers more money -- though it is really only helping corn growers because anyone who feeds their animals corn has to pay additional prices since so much corn is being used to make ethanol. tTis leads to higher beef costs, etc...
 
Ethanol as a fuel is beset with problems - it still produces air pollution, it isn't particularly cheap, and (biggest of all IMHO), it is being produced in short-sighted and non-sustainable ways, negating many of its benefits as an alternative to oil.

Ethanol as a fuel will always be competing with maize or cane for food, which cold become an increasingly big issue since the human population is still growing.
 
Abstract said:
You want to let your car drink alcohol?

By next week, it'll drive a bit sluggish and be a bit more non-responsive. However, it'll tell you that it's fine.

By next month, it'll show up late and won't even take you to where you need to go.

In 3 months time, it'll be on crack.
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Don't forget it'll likely sleep with your best friend. ;)
 
Yes. There's methanol for one...there is some argument for methanol as a sustainable resource because it can be produced from wood, but it is corrosive to metal so there are challenges to using it in cars. It's also more dangerous to humans than ethanol.
 
Lord Blackadder said:
Yes. There's methanol for one...there is some argument for methanol as a sustainable resource because it can be produced from wood, but it is corrosive to metal so there are challenges to using it in cars. It's also more dangerous to humans than ethanol.
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well i guess that won't work for cars and humans then.
 
Wouldn't carrying around all those alcoholics to breath into the carburetor create some mileage problems.
 
MongoTheGeek said:
The advantage comes in that while it releases huge amounts of CO2, all of that came from the atmosphere so it is carbon neutral.
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Not entirely true. Sure, the actual burning of ethanol is carbon neutral, but the production of it requires huge amounts of fossil fuels. Ethanol in this country comes from corn. Corn is produced on huge factory farms run by diesel tractors. It is fed with massive amounts of fertilizer that are also petroleum-based. If we were to convert all of our tractors and fertilizer plants to use corn-based products instead of oil, we'd make just enough ethanol to run the operation, and barely any extra to use in autos. The process is not currently sustainable - the fossil fuel energy input required is almost as high as the ethanol energy output. That's also why ethanol is always going to be more expensive than oil (without subsidies, of course).

Then there are the other problems associated with factory farming corn. Rapid topsoil loss because the land is used so heavily. Nitrogen pollution leading to dead waterways, blue babies, and dead zones in the gulf from all of that excessive fertilizer. Air pollution problems from all of the diesel being burned near the farms.

Ethanol is not the future. Neither is biodiesel, for that matter, again because the energy input needed to make it viable on a large scale is huge. Works great for a few hippies running their vw van on french fry grease, but we just don't produce enough to run the whole country.

Near term I'm putting my money on nuclear. Oil will get expensive enough we'll have no choice. We use nuclear energy to run our electric grid and use it to either charge electric vehicles or make hydrogen for fuel cell cars. It's a ways off, and things will get awfully expensive before we'll tolerate more nuclear plants being built.
 
I have driven cars on alcohol in Brazil. They run sluggish with a lot less power than on gasoline. We are presently using corn to make alcohol which has raised its price to feed beef and poultry, thus raising those prices. Also, it is affecting the prices of cereal and other food items that utilize corn syrup and cornmeal. It is very politically correct but economically stupid. I believe the battery operated cars make much more sense. They are good for 240 miles per charge and that is more than most commute in a day. Charge at night when the power grid has extra energy to spare. I read that Toyota is coming out with a Prius that has a plug-in to charge battery, that gives the first 120 miles on just the battery before switching over to gas/battery. This seems the way to go. Forget alcohol!:)
 
MongoTheGeek said:
Up until the 1920s it was common for cars to run on Ethanol. Look at some old movies. When the said put Ethyl in the car it was ethanol. Farmers would have their own still and make their own fuel.
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Tetra-ethyl lead, abbreviated TEL, is an organometallic compound with the formula (CH3CH2)4Pb. Once a common anti-knock additive in gasoline (petrol), TEL usage was largely discontinued because of the toxicity of lead and its disadvantageous effects on catalytic converters. It is still used as an additive in the aviation fuel known as avgas.
TEL was once used extensively as an additive in gasoline (petrol) for its ability to increase the fuel's octane rating (that is, to prevent its premature detonation ("knocking") in the engine) thus allowing the use of higher compression ratios for greater efficiency and power. The use of TEL in gasoline was started in the US while in Europe alcohol was initially used. The advantages of ethyl gasoline from its higher energy content and storage quality eventually led to a universal switch to leaded fuel.
 
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