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No, I was not there. I've read press accounts of the call and hope Apple will be compelled to release the audio if it exist. It reaches refusing if they do not act on the information; if Apple was following this lead in the interim then it would not be refusing. However, the accounts I've read suggest they discounted the tip as a hoax. To your last point; yes there are people in all organizations tasked with responsibilities. Just because the person getting the information initially is not tasked with getting it back does not absolve Apple here. You will also agree that the hierarchy of any organization should be designed so that information is communicated in a manner that the 'right' person gets it and can act upon it. In your example, you may not have the ability to do something - but you know who to call when asked about this? Right? Here, the person getting the call should have communicated it to a 'higher-up', eventually reaching someone that would see it for what it was or Apple should have told their support staff to be on the lookout for anyone asking about an unusual or atypical iPhone.

Apple did not - they FAILED. They are claiming theft and possible felony charges, simple because the right hand of Apple did not know what the left hand was doing. That my friend is wrong.

What report did you read where? Who were it's sources? If they weren't "the guy" who had possession of the phone calling Applecare, or a representative of Applecare themselves why would you attribute any validity to such a story? People need to relearn the value of cited sources and how to think critically.
And again, because you missed it, the DA and the State of CA charge people with a Felony, not Apple.
 
And it's somehow comforting to know Swedish ethical values are so equivocal that simply turning in a lost or mislaid item, not keeping it, is considered "robotic law compliance". We used to think Scandinavian countries were so culturally sophisticated and superior. I guess we were wrong.
Well, I hate to rain on your parade but Swedish law states that found items must be handed in to the nearest police station or returned to the owner if identifiable. It's just that we're sophisticated enough to have separate legal terms for regular, active theft and this kind of passive "theft", much like you distinguish murder from manslaughter. I suppose whoever made this distinction realized that snatching something as opposed to keeping a found item were different in terms of level of premeditation, malice and intent. But I guess there wasn't room for more words in the English vocabulary. Hey, why not just scrap all those definitions and refer to all crime as theft? You know, manthefter, driving under theft, reckless endangertheft, embezzeltheft, freft and so forth. Just to keep things simple and binary, plus you get to say your favorite word "theft" more often.
 
Well, I hate to rain on your parade but Swedish law states that found items must be handed in to the nearest police station or returned to the owner if identifiable. It's just that we're sophisticated enough to have separate legal terms for regular, active theft and this kind of passive "theft", much like you distinguish murder from manslaughter. I suppose whoever made this distinction realized that snatching something as opposed to keeping a found item were different in terms of level of premeditation, malice and intent. But I guess there wasn't room for more words in the English vocabulary. Hey, why not just scrap all those definitions and refer to all crime as theft? You know, manthefter, driving under theft, reckless endangertheft, embezzeltheft, freft and so forth. Just to keep things simple and binary, plus you get to say your favorite word "theft" more often.

At this point, we don't know what type of theft occurred. At the very least, we know that what has occurred is considered theft in California regardless of how the finder acquired it.
 
The original finder called Apple asking about said property; making a reasonable (I think) effort to connect it back to the owner. The representative from Apple said they did not know anything about it. It was Apples negligence here that they did not communicate the missing iPhone to their support staff. They had their chance to get it back - and the BLEW OFF the guy trying to do it. Its as simple as that.
"Simple as that" eh? -- to a naive 9-year-old perhaps. :) So let's see... if someone finds a Nokia in some bar in Nasville, then naturally they would immediately call the company in Finland, right? Hmm, but what if it was a Sony/Ericsson though... would you call Japan or Sweden?

Your arguments lack basic ingredients, like common sense and logic.


Return it to the bar, give it to the police or give your contact info to the bar. So simple a child could figure it out. In fact, try asking a child what they would do. I guarantee they won't come up with "call the manufacturer's customer support number".
Precisely.


I'm sure Apple should have informed the janitors and groundskeepers to be on the lookout as well.
:D


Yes, and it's the only story we have and the only thing we can go by when discussing hypotheticals about what should and shouldn't have been done given the situation.

If you think the story is pure fiction, why cherry pick parts of it and accept them as facts?
Again, a little common sense and logic (as in: "what's missing from this picture?") can be applied. Don't you suppose that calls and SMS messages were sent to that mobil before it was bricked? (like within one minute of noticing it was lost). I mean, wouldn't you do that? You can't believe that a thief would lie?

Va roligt.
 
Well, I hate to rain on your parade but Swedish law states that found items must be handed in to the nearest police station or returned to the owner if identifiable. It's just that we're sophisticated enough to have separate legal terms for regular, active theft and this kind of passive "theft", much like you distinguish murder from manslaughter. I suppose whoever made this distinction realized that snatching something as opposed to keeping a found item were different in terms of level of premeditation, malice and intent. But I guess there wasn't room for more words in the English vocabulary. Hey, why not just scrap all those definitions and refer to all crime as theft? You know, manthefter, driving under theft, reckless endangertheft, embezzeltheft, freft and so forth. Just to keep things simple and binary, plus you get to say your favorite word "theft" more often.

We have terms for various types of theft - burglary, larceny, robbery. These tend to date back to ancient English law however. Back then, if someone handed you something and you ran away with it, it didn't fall into any of these categories. Burglary was breaking into a dwelling house (not a business) of another at night (not during the day) with the intention to commit a felony. etc. This was awkward, to say the least, so eventually the meanings of each of these was expanded. But I think we decided three or four types was enough :)
 
At this point, we don't know what type of theft occurred.
There are different types?

I was told by farmboy there was only untheft (innocence) and double-plus-theft (non-innocence, punishable by death).
 
I believe that's a civil penalty under california law, not criminal.

There are civil and criminal statutes; Check out California Penal code 499c for theft of trade secrets. Even if the intent was to return the device copying, leaking, publishing the trade secret is an immediate violation. They can be charged with this from the information that is currently posted on their website and they can't feign ignorance since their $100k Valleywag Apple Tablet scavenger hunt should have introduced them to the law.

http://gawker.com/5448177/update-apple-wins-the-first-prize-in-our-tablet-scavenger-hunt
 
I looked up the penalty for grand theft ($400+).
imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison.
I'd bet on county jail and nowhere near a year, maybe just parole.

zk2zrd.jpg
 
There are civil and criminal statutes; Check out California Penal code 499c for theft of trade secrets. Even if the intent was to return the device copying, leaking, publishing the trade secret is an immediate violation. They can be charged with this from the information that is currently posted on their website and they can't feign ignorance since their $100k Valleywag Apple Tablet scavenger hunt should have introduced them to the law.

http://gawker.com/5448177/update-apple-wins-the-first-prize-in-our-tablet-scavenger-hunt

Ah, thanks. Looks like it's just treated as grand larceny, so 1 year.
 
I wish I could find that post by cmaier that I just think is the best response to those who would defend the thief and Gizmodo by finding fault with the engineer; something to the effect of, "Well, he deserved it. Walking into a bar with an iPhone wearing that low-cut blouse and short skirt, what did he expect to happen? He was asking for it."

Incidentally, you can defend yourself in a defamation case (and it would be libel, not slander) brought by the thief or Gizmodo on the grounds that they both are now public figures and that you are expressing an opinion. (And I didn't even need to resort to Google.)

And one more thing: the only way any of us, including the District Attorney, is going to prove the guilt of the thief is by starting with the law. In this case there is no one denying that the finder sold the phone to Gizmodo, based on all the reports, so we can assume that fact can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a courtroom. Once the People prove this fact, the burden shifts to the defendant to produce evidence that he undertook efforts to restore the phone to its rightful possessor, i.e., either Apple or the engineer. We don't know what evidence he might proffer, but I think it's not unreasonable to base our discussions on what Gizmodo reported until we hear directly from the finder. In court, once the defendant adduces evidence of his efforts, the burden of persuasion lies with the People to convince a jury, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the efforts the defendant claims he made were either were not truly made, or that they were insufficient to meet the legal requirement that they be "reasonable and just".

In fact, there is very little "proof" for the State to present in a case like this. Usually in a larceny case the major question is whether or not the defendant was the one who took the goods. Here, there is no question that he took the phone, nor is there any question that it was not his. No one is arguing that the engineer made the finder a gift of it, that the finder innocently mistook it for his own, or that the engineer intended to discard the phone.

The only additional "proof" the People will need to produce is if it disputes whatever account of his activities the defendant offers. Otherwise, it is simply a question of arguing about whether or not what the defendant says he did to get the phone back to either the engineer or Apple was reasonable and just.

And we're all just participating in much the same argument that will go on in the jury room, and anyone here or at the water cooler is perfectly free to say how they would vote were they on the jury and the scenario reported by Gizmodo were relied upon by the defendant. And it is entirely within anyone's rights to respond, without fear of being sued for defamation, "GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!"

At last, a sensible response.

There's a lot of "IF"s and "so we can assume"'s in there, as there should be. Yes, the DA has to start with the law, but it is only a guide to what should be prosecuted. It's down to the DA, judge and jury's interpretation of the law that will decide.

But let's discuss the case at hand, that currently being investigated. What do we know so far - and correct me if I'm wrong.
- It's a criminal investigation.
- It's been instigated by lawyers for the Apple Engineer who lost the phone.
- the private residence of the Gizmodo editor has been raided.
- the individual who found the phone has spoken to the police - I would say "is known by the police" but it'd give the wrong impression.

So what can we assume - and again, correct me if I'm wrong, or tell me my assumption is iffy:
- Apple have not instigated this, although they may have a case in the future.
- The case is not based on any "theft" of the phone itself. I state this because I'm assuming the phone belonged to Apple, not the engineer - as was highlighted in the letter sent by Apple to Gizmodo. This may be an iffy assumption.
- The key points of the Apple Engineer and the home of the Gixmodo editor makes me assume that the case may relate to the alleged theft of the Apple Engineers personal information on the phone.
- It may even extend to the "theft" of the iPhone OS v4, but I would have expected Apple to instigate any case over that.

Any ideas ?
Would Chen be stupid enough to have kept any data from the iPhone on his personal computers ? (no comments about his general stupidity in acquiring the phone please - we've all moved on from that last week).
Can there be any other reason for the Engineer to instigate the case against Gizmodo and it's editor ?
Can there be any other reason the police would raid his home ?
They don't need to identify the individual who found the phone, they have already spoken to the police.
 
We have terms for various types of theft - burglary, larceny, robbery.
Yeah, we have those golden oldies too, and another one called "egenmäktigt förfarande" which doesn't really file under theft, it's for when you disable someone from control of their property but without the intention of taking possession of it, e.g. put a lock on someone else's bike. I'm sure you have a term for that. I don't think some of these terms can be accurately translated though, it's sort of like "ombudsman", you'd just give up and use the Swedish word instead.
 
Yeah, we have those golden oldies too, and another one called "egenmäktigt förfarande" which doesn't really file under theft, it's for when you disable someone from control of their property but without the intention of taking possession of it, e.g. put a lock on someone else's bike. I'm sure you have a term for that. I don't think some of these terms can be accurately translated though, it's sort of like "ombudsman", you'd just give up and use the Swedish word instead.

We'd probably call that "criminal conversion" (though conversion is typically a civil matter).

I actually bought an egenmäktigt förfarande from Ikea but it was missing a couple of wood pieces so I returned it.
 
Yeah, we have those golden oldies too, and another one called "egenmäktigt förfarande" which doesn't really file under theft, it's for when you disable someone from control of their property but without the intention of taking possession of it, e.g. put a lock on someone else's bike.
"egenmäktigt förfarand" apparently means awesome practical joke :p.
 
I'm waiting for Chen to turn around and file a civil case against gawker, especially in light of the very poor legal advice he has been given.
 
"egenmäktigt förfarand" apparently means awesome practical joke :p.
It pretty much does. Locking someone else's bike, leaving your car in the handicap spot for 2 weeks, painting your neighbor's house pink would all qualify. "Egenmäktigt" is made up of two words that mean "self" and "powerful" but would probably translate to something like arbitrary or unauthorized, and "förfarande" means behavior or execution. The notion being that you've granted yourself authorization to exercise power that isn't yours to wield, but in a small and petty way, not taking over the country or something of that magnitude.
 
..we're sophisticated enough to have separate legal terms for regular, active theft and this kind of passive "theft", much like you distinguish murder from manslaughter.

That's interesting. We tend to classify crimes involving the misappropriation of tangible property on two axes: the manner in which the goods were alienated from the owner, and the value of the goods. On that first axis our several states have all sorts of charming terms--"theft by taking", "theft by deception", "larceny by trick", "theft by shoplifting", "embezzlement" and then, of course, "burglary", "robbery", etc. In many places there are schemes of aggravating circumstances that enhance the penalty. On the value axis we have petty theft, grand theft, grand theft auto, etc. Often the jurisdiction will have classes of crimes into which each of these offenses fall: sometimes simply felony and misdemeanor (the latter punishable by a year in prison or less), or there may be a more convoluted scheme involving "Clases" such as a "Class A Felony" or a "Class 4 Misdemeanor", each class qualifying the condemned to a particular range of period of incarceration or amount of fine.

In California, it seems that the legislature thought that grabbing someone's phone in a public place while his back was turned was no different, in terms of maximum punishment for the offense, from grabbing a phone that had been misplaced or lost. In practice, though, I would think judges passing sentence may make a de facto distinction, although that factor may be swamped by others, such as the remorse displayed, prior convictions, youth, etc.

From your background I can certainly understand that the word "theft" conjures up an image that is inconsistent with someone simply finding a lost object and failing to exert legally adequate effort to return it. It occurred to me that the legislator who decided to use the word "theft" wanted to accentuate the seriousness of an act that some of the morally challenged among us might not otherwise appreciate. In any case it is interesting to consider your perspective.
 
Well, I hate to rain on your parade but Swedish law states that found items must be handed in to the nearest police station or returned to the owner if identifiable. It's just that we're sophisticated enough to have separate legal terms for regular, active theft and this kind of passive "theft", much like you distinguish murder from manslaughter. I suppose whoever made this distinction realized that snatching something as opposed to keeping a found item were different in terms of level of premeditation, malice and intent. But I guess there wasn't room for more words in the English vocabulary. Hey, why not just scrap all those definitions and refer to all crime as theft? You know, manthefter, driving under theft, reckless endangertheft, embezzeltheft, freft and so forth. Just to keep things simple and binary, plus you get to say your favorite word "theft" more often.

I wasn't aware of the word theft in my post. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else. I checked, not there. Although it would not be out of place, since that is the issue we've been discussing.

The guy didn't turn it in right away, and apparently kept it for many days if not weeks. At what point would you want the guy to turn it over before he was accused of (here it comes for the first time in many posts, at least that I remember) theft? Is there a comfortable time frame--a week, a month, a decade (as long as he's sincere about returning it, that is)?

As far as premeditation, malice and intent. We have them all. Pretty much don't apply. Premeditation and malice are not relevant, and intent (to the extent that it is relevant) is probably best demonstrated by the fact that he failed to take any actions similar to what I suggested, so the intent appears to be he wanted to keep it. Then he sold it rather than continue to make any effort to contact the owner. In other words, he made more of an effort to sell it than he did to find the owner. Is any of this registering? Does it seem acceptable in your sophisticated worldview?

The rest is your attempt at humor, I guess. Maybe the Norwegians and Finns here in Minnesota are right.
 
We'd probably call that "criminal conversion" (though conversion is typically a civil matter).

I actually bought an egenmäktigt förfarande from Ikea but it was missing a couple of wood pieces so I returned it.

I think in the olden days before criminal codes we would have called the unlawful detention of personalty without asportation "trespass to chattels", but I don't think it would have been a Common Law crime. I can't think of one in any case.

Actually I've always been a bit suspicious of a culture that serves meatballs without spaghetti.
 
I think in the olden days before criminal codes we would have called the unlawful detention of personalty without asportation "trespass to chattels", but I don't think it would have been a Common Law crime. I can't think of one in any case.

Actually I've always been a bit suspicious of a culture that serves meatballs without spaghetti.

right, that's why I was trying to come up with a criminal equivalent. Of course, we're talking about a body of law that differentiated battery from trespass on the case, so it doesn't have to make any sense.

Any country with meatballs can't be all bad. What troubles me about Sweden is the large vampire population.
 
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