Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Of course this would happen. There's all kinds of competition from two sides, other mobile-pay companies (and systems) on the one hand, and the established credit-card companies on the other. And this kind of competition involves all kinds of pressure, subtle as well as blunt, to "encourage" retailers to do it their way. It's a no-holds-barred free-for-all right now, and, while there might never be a clear winner, some will lose out, and go the way of the Edsel. I hope it's not Apple, but it could be.

An uncomfortable truth for Apple: is it really all that hard to swipe a credit card, an established, globally well-known system which we already have, incrementally updated to increase security - and thus, would entail no additional system revamp or hardware investment for most retailers in the world? What, for the average consumer, makes ApplePay more attractive than that - beyond the "cool" factor?

The credit card companies actually support Apple Pay. They've been putting some serious marketing dollars behind pushing it too. It's more convenient, infinitely more secure, and will encourage consumers to use cards more than they currently do. They make a lot more money on interest rates than they'll lose from the fraction of their fee that they'll pay Apple.

Additionally, the US magnetic strip credit card system is archaic when compared to the rest of the world. Most countries have switched to contactless cards already, which are far more secure than what we use in the US. It's a long standing problem that has put US consumers' card data at risk time and time again.

In 2015 the card processing rules are changing. All cards will support a chip system and retailers will have to upgrade their processing machines to accept them. If they don't, they'll be liable for fraudulent charges resulting from data theft, stolen cards etc.--not the banks (as is currently the case).

Retailers must make upgrades anyway, NFC capability isn't necessarily an expensive add-on and most companies are pushing those machines hard.
 
Your observations are spot on. Based on their posts here I've concluded that a huge number of this thread's posters are immature, brainless lemmings who erroneously think that mindlessly endorsing and worshiping Apple somehow makes them less immature and brainless. Not so.

I'm thinking that there are quite a few teens posting. Who else hangs around CVS and Walgreens? :D:D

----------

I dunno. Last I heard of him, he said he felt numb or something.

Comfortably Numb? That was Pink Floyd.
 
If Microsoft or Google came up with the exact same system and Apple wasn't involved in cashless payments in any way, there wouldn't be an uproar if a merchant refused to implement it and people here would be saying who needs it, I'll just use my credit cards or cash.

Welcome to humanity. Self Interest for your own needs and apathy for everyone else needs.

That's not limited to Apple users BTW, same thing happens for countless other things in this crazy world.

What you described in just the normal reaction for everyone not involved in Apple or without knowledge of NFC payments (everyone in the US). You'd get plenty of reaction in the Google and Microsoft forums though (and probably in specific tech forums too); probably identical to this one except with a lot less Apple trolls than Anti-Apple trolls in this forum.

Apple obsessed people seem to not like spending their time trolling Android forum, too busy using/buying their Apple toys I suppose ;-).
 
Welcome to humanity. Self Interest for your own needs and apathy for everyone else needs.

That's not limited to Apple users BTW, same thing happens for countless other things in this crazy world.

What you described in just the normal reaction for everyone not involved in Apple or without knowledge of NFC payments (everyone in the US). You'd get plenty of reaction in the Google and Microsoft forums though (and probably in specific tech forums too); probably identical to this one except with a lot less Apple trolls than Anti-Apple trolls in this forum.

Apple obsessed people seem to not like spending their time trolling Android forum, too busy using/buying their Apple toys I suppose ;-).

I know it's hard to believe, but there are people out there that like Apple products and don't worship the company.

----------

Naw, just numb. Dunno what it means. I asked him, and all he said was don't move, don't talk out of time, don't think, don't worry, everything's just fine...

...Just fine.

Then Bono popped in and started talking like someone had his nuts in a vice. It was all kinds of concerning.

Just numb, so he must not have been comfortable. Especially with the family jewels in a vise.
 
I'm curious to see if profits actually drop for these companies refusing to take Apple pay. My bet is maybe one percent of the folks proclaiming they'll avoid shopping at these places are full of it.
 
Your observations are spot on. Based on their posts here I've concluded that a huge number of this thread's posters are immature, brainless lemmings who erroneously think that mindlessly endorsing and worshiping Apple somehow makes them less immature and brainless. Not so.

Right.. Give me a break. If owning a 3GS (and nothing else Apple) makes me a Apple lemming ($650 dollars more than 5 years ago), then I guess it doesn't take much to get there. I probably spend less on phones than people buying cheap androids.

NFC payments has nothing to do with Apple and this is were my interest mainly lies. Since Apple is the first to initiate the push in the US, I am interested in Apple succeeding.

Voila. Now educate yourself about NFC payments and MCX first before talking through your hat. If your happy giving retailers with spotty history of IT security access to your bank account instead of... banks. Well, more power to you, go ahead and don't complain when you account is siphoned without any recourse.
 
So this means you won't be using your credit card anywhere else, ever, now that Apple Pay is on the scene?

No, that's obviously not feasible, certainly at this early date. However, I absolutely will choose a retailer that supports Apple Pay over one who does not, all things being otherwise equal. I've moved my prescriptions from CVS to Walgreens, I will shop Home Depot instead of Lowe's, will eat at McD's instead of Wendy's, and will buy electronics at Radio Shack instead of Best Buy.


Seems to me security should be ubiquitous and not limited to just those with an iPhone 6 in the Apple ecosystem.

Agreed. Apple is making the first brave step into EMV tokenization; it would be great if other phone manufacturers/Google did the same. It's not Apple's fault that no one but Google has seemed to care in the past and that they did a pretty poor job of it.


And what about as new iPhones are released along with new versions of IOS and suddenly you can't use Apple Pay because your iPhone is too old? Look no further than what Apple did with the introduction of continuity.

Not sure I understand you, but if you are implying that Apple Pay won't work on my iPhone 6 one day anymore because it is too old, I really don't think I believe that it would happen. That would be a CVS-level moron move.


I don't think it's good for consumers or businesses for one company to be the gatekeeper of secure credit card transactions. The biggest stakeholders in this game with respect to security are the credit card companies.

Apple isn't the "gatekeeper". They implemented an open standard (EMV tokenization) that any other company could implement tomorrow if they had the desire to. The major issue you'd face in trying to roll your own is the problem that Apple is attempting to use it's clout to bring about: Each individual credit card issuing bank has to be on board, as do the card networks. Apple is/will be making this happen, and everyone who may decide to follow them will benefit from the trail that Apple is blazing.


Won't the coming implementation of PIN and chip cards create a secure environment?

Nope. When you insert your chip & pin card, the real credit card number is used, just as if you swiped the card you have today. In other words, it would still be vulnerable to the attacks on Target, Home Depot, KMart, etc.

The only thing that chip & pin mitigates is use of a lost or stolen card.

If yes, then Apple Pay becomes just a convenience doesn't it, albeit secure? And if security is your biggest concern as you state, what difference does it make who's providing it?

It doesn't matter who provides it. What matters is how secure it is.

Apple Pay is - as near as can be determined by the incomplete information that we have - as secure as it can be made. The alternatives are:

Google Wallet. Secure enough in theory, but all the eggs are in one basket (Google) instead of with hundreds of banks. You also have the issue of Google knowing your transactions and perhaps selling the data. Google would make a good candidate for creating a comparable system, but they can't even get phone manufacturers and carriers on board with what they do, and they would likely be loathe to give up all the valuable and mineable data on your purchases.

CurrentC. Not even really comparable since it funds off your bank account, not your credit card. They do ACH transfers when you make a purchase, and ACH transfers have significantly weaker consumer protections from fraud.
 
Being that I develop for the credit card industry, I'm actually appalled at so much mis information in this thread from people literally talking out of their a$$ and have NO idea how this technology or the payment industry works.

Apple Pay is NO different from a normal NFC transaction from another phone or a "tap to pay" credit card. Apple negotiated the rates with the BANKS directly. This fee is NOT charged to the merchant. The POS system sees the Apple Pay as a normal NFC transaction, and it is processed exactly the same as a normal credit card. Apple simply has an extremely advanced encryption and tokenization system for protecting the card information.

The Bank (NOT the processor the merchant is using) knows what transactions are Apple pay transactions and pays Apple accordingly. Apple's Apple Pay Service is simply a encryption service to store the card information on the phone in a manner that cannot be cracked. That's pretty much it.

So to sum up....

- Apple Pay DOES NOT have additional fees for the merchants to pay.
- Apple Pay DOES NOT process in any special way, it's handled exactly like a normal credit card through the merchant's chosen processor.
- As long as the credit card processor can accept NFC payments, nothing else needs to be done to support it.

I really do wish people on this site would wise up and not comment on something they have no idea about, but speak as if they do.
 
CVS should take ApplePay until they're ready to launch they're own system. Why penalize the customer for their mistake in judgement.
 
The only thing that chip & pin mitigates is use of a lost or stolen card.

Chipped cards are also very difficult to clone or duplicate.

But as you pointed out, a chipped card doesn't encrypt the info end-to-end. It's encrypted on the chip, but the merchant's terminal decrypts it in order to submit the authorization request.

The merchant's system is not supposed to store the unencrypted info anywhere, but for that moment, it's vulnerable to snooping. That's what happened at Target, and a chip (and even a PIN) wouldn't prevent it.
 
Being that I develop for the credit card industry, I'm actually appalled at so much mis information in this thread from people literally talking out of their a$$ and have NO idea how this technology or the payment industry works.

Apple Pay is NO different from a normal NFC transaction from another phone or a "tap to pay" credit card. Apple negotiated the rates with the BANKS directly. This fee is NOT charged to the merchant. The POS system sees the Apple Pay as a normal NFC transaction, and it is processed exactly the same as a normal credit card. Apple simply has an extremely advanced encryption and tokenization system for protecting the card information.

The Bank (NOT the processor the merchant is using) knows what transactions are Apple pay transactions and pays Apple accordingly. Apple's Apple Pay Service is simply a encryption service to store the card information on the phone in a manner that cannot be cracked. That's pretty much it.

So to sum up....

- Apple Pay DOES NOT have additional fees for the merchants to pay.
- Apple Pay DOES NOT process in any special way, it's handled exactly like a normal credit card through the merchant's chosen processor.
- As long as the credit card processor can accept NFC payments, nothing else needs to be done to support it.

I really do wish people on this site would wise up and not comment on something they have no idea about, but speak as if they do.

I am pretty sure that what you have said is exactly what a lot of others have said in this forum, hmmm yep not seeing any new or different information that you are bringing to the table that we did not already know.
 
How is this legal? Wouldn't denying payment that you used to support before, at no cost difference, be considered anticompetitive?

It's legal because stores are free to choose what payment methods they take. They could stop accepting cash if they wanted to. Hell, I wish I would wake up tomorrow to find that all retail stores have stopped accepting checks.
 
I know it's hard to believe, but there are people out there that like Apple products and don't worship the company.

----------



Just numb, so he must not have been comfortable. Especially with the family jewels in a vise.

You worship yourself from what I see; who needs Apple when we are our own god, right... ;-)

BTW, my interest is mainly in NFC payments (and their anonymity and security) and Apple being a spearhead for this. The US needs to get into gear on the payment side.

IF they cut out a simple NFC interact card (not even sure this exists in the US but it does in Canada), I'd be just as outraged. So, this has nothing to do with Apple per say in my case.

BTW, I own a 3GS and possibly will buy a 6+ or Air 2 before Christmas, still deciding (but not both, I may keep my old workhorse 3GS), that's my extent of donating or potentially donating to Apple.
 
I knew it had to be Obama's fault! somehow....

Give it a few minutes, anything Obama's fault reverts to, because George W. Bush exists...

CVS/Rite Aid not taking Apple Pay... Bush's fault.

"My Obamacare mandated pharmacy, CVS....." guess we know where CVS corporation's political donations are going... DNC anyone?!?

But on a personal level, my health insurance carrier I had for twelve years, with a pre-exisiting condition no less, informed me that they are canceling coverage March 2015 and I have to look for new coverage... and they said it was Obama's fault, thanks to Obamacare... So what do you know, it is Obama's fault. ;)
 
Last edited:
You worship yourself from what I see; who needs Apple when we are our own god, right... ;-)

BTW, my interest is mainly in NFC payments (and their anonymity and security) and Apple being a spearhead for this. The US needs to get into gear on the payment side.

IF they cut out a simple NFC interact card (not even sure this exists in the US but it does in Canada), I'd be just as outraged. So, this has nothing to do with Apple per say in my case.

BTW, I own a 3GS and possibly will buy a 6+ or Air 2 before Christmas, still deciding (but not both, I may keep my old workhorse 3GS), that's my extent of donating or potentially donating to Apple.

The 6+ is nice and so is the Air 2. Time to retire that 3GS and get out of the dark ages. :D

All joking aside, I am all for more secure payment methods to reduce identity theft.
 
For everybody whining already, perhaps it would be nice to think about why they might do this? It's not like this is a service Apple is providing for free. Just because you don't have to pay for it doesn't mean somebody isn't. I don't know what Apple takes from these transactions and it is certainly not unheard of to have higher rates for those that are not affiliated with a certain program, so it could very well be that paying through Apple Pay costs them all or most of their margin.

Now I don't know about you guys, but if I had a company and customer convenience like Apple Pay cost me my margins I'd cut it off faster than you can say Apple Pay. None of you guys work for free, and neither should shops.

How many times do we have to explain this?

THE RETAILER IS NOT PAYING ANY FEES TO APPLE. THE RETAILER PAYS ONLY THE REGULAR CREDIT CARD FEES. THE CREDIT CARD COMPANIES ARE PAYING APPLE FOR THE INCREASED SECURITY.

Try paying attention!

Retailers are shutting it down so that they can force currentC down our throats. I'm in Canada so I haven't seen any of this nonsense yet but I WILL be boycotting businesses if they start that crap here.
 
I know it's hard to believe, but there are people out there that like Apple products and don't worship the company.

----------



Just numb, so he must not have been comfortable. Especially with the family jewels in a vise.

Huh?? How does being annoyed and angry by what CVS did make you "worship the company"? People enjoy the convenience of a service that is available on their new phones and they want the ability to use it as many places as possible. So when they find out a store takes away that convenience they get ticked off and want to boycott the place. What in the world does that have to do with worshipping the company that provided that service?
 
Being that I develop for the credit card industry, I'm actually appalled at so much mis information in this thread from people literally talking out of their a$$ and have NO idea how this technology or the payment industry works.

I'm amazed at how many people post the same misinformation, even after it has been refuted almost every day since :apple:Pay was announced. It would take only a moment to read one of the many articles published on the subject. Heck, they could even read a few pages on one of these threads and learn the highlights, if not the details.

But instead, they hit the reply button and repeat the same tired claims:

  1. A merchant has to sign up for Apple Pay, to accept payments.
  2. A merchant has to pay higher transaction fees for Apple Pay.
  3. A merchant can refuse Apple Pay (but accept contactless card payments)
When challenged, one actually replied "Prove me wrong". When I pointed out that it was his responsibility to back up his assertions, he went silent. Another has been sending me harrassing messages to my mailbox, after I (and many others) pointed out he was badly mistaken.

Someone has already replied to you and said: yeah, we already know all this. If that's so, why do people keep posting this tripe? Are they willfully ignorant, or just trolling? Another poster has expressed his desire for more active moderators, but I'm not sure that's a better solution.
 
THE RETAILER IS NOT PAYING ANY FEES TO APPLE. THE RETAILER PAYS ONLY THE REGULAR CREDIT CARD FEES. THE CREDIT CARD COMPANIES ARE PAYING APPLE FOR THE INCREASED SECURITY.

It's actually the issuing bank that pays Apple's fees, for MasterCard and VISA.

American Express and Discover issue their own cards, so your statement is accurate in their case.
 
Lines lines lines

Read: we have the opportunity to partner with someone who will give us a cut.

Lines lines lines
 
i can't believe all the folks crying over this whole :apple:pay thing. it's not even 100% secure. the only thing that 100% un-hackable right now is bitcoin. so lets all forget this Apay stuff and move into future already.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.