Dobbs2

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jun 5, 2008
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Ok I had a site bookmarked not to long ago, but can't find it. Is there any one out there that can help me out? Since AT&T's "4G" right now is simply HSPA+ in most areas. The iPhone can handle it, HSPA+ that is. With HSPA+ theoretical limit somewhere around 84 Mbps and real world average around 7-12 Mbps thats not bad. So what can each individual model for example 3G, 3GS, 4 and 4S handle?
 

shadrap

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Jul 6, 2009
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They do not have HSPA+ enabled. So, no it isn't AT&T's faux 4G. It is HSPDA. Which means it will run slightly faster.
 
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Dobbs2

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jun 5, 2008
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I appreciate the fast responses. Shad I guess I'm slightly confused then. Do any of you have a link so I can take a look at them? Thanks a million!
 
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Dobbs2

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jun 5, 2008
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Look at what? The speeds? They're already posted twice in the thread.

I wanted a credible link for reference. I can't find any right now. I wanted to know the source. I had one bookmarked. I would like to book mark another one.
 
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rjohnstone

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Dec 28, 2007
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After a lot of reading, we really won't know until someone (iFixit) does a tear down to see what radio Apple used.
If it is the MDM6600, it can do 14.4Mbps HSPA+.
Apple is claiming 14.4Mbps HSDPA in the tech specs.
The issue is that 14.4Mbps HSDPA is Release 7 which makes it HSPA+.
Or Apple is lying/exaggerating and it's really running at 14.0 Mbps HSDPA Release 5, this would make it an HSPA device.

Now I've heard arguments that they are using MIMO over dual 7.2Mbps links making this a Release 5 device, but the issue with that is MIMO wasn't introduced until Release 7.

Either way, it's software and Apple can update from Release 5 (HSPA) to Release 7 (HSPA+) pretty easy.

Here... light reading...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Speed_Downlink_Packet_Access

The heavy reading.
http://www.3gpp.org/HSPA
No, HSPA+ tops out at 42mbit/s (21mbit/s on AT&T's network). iPhone supports HSDPA, which maxes out at 14.4mbit/s.

http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/#performance - Near the bottom of the page.
HSPA+ tops out at 84.4Mbps ;)
 
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Intell

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Jan 24, 2010
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No, HSPA+ tops out at 42mbit/s. iPhone supports HSDPA, which maxes out at 14.4mbit/s.

By your statement, HSPA+'s fastest speed is 42mbit/s. And a number below 42 is also HSPA+. Logically, 14 is below that. Thus the the iPhone 4S has it. But that is a silly argument.


HSDPA is the download part of HSPA+. HSPA+'s lower limit as stated by AT&T in marketing stuff is 14.4mbit/s and the target is about 21mbit/s. Furthermore, as discussed in the keynote, this could be considered a "4G" phone. Three other Android phones have the same up/down speeds and market themselves as 4G phones.
 
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dranakin

macrumors 6502
Mar 6, 2005
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By your statement, HSPA+'s fastest speed is 42mbit/s. And a number below 42 is also HSPA+. Logically, 14 is below that. Thus the the iPhone 4S has it. But that is a silly argument.

HSDPA is the download part of HSPA+. HSPA+'s lower limit as stated by AT&T in marketing stuff is 14.4mbit/s and the target is about 21mbit/s. Furthermore, as discussed in the keynote, this could be considered a "4G" phone. Three other Android phones have the same up/down speeds and market themselves as 4G phones.

I never said anything about 4G, you did. Stop being silly. I was simply talking about you calling the iPhone 4 HSPA+ (alluding to 21mbit/s). AT&T groups both HSPA+ and HSDPA speeds as "4G", but again, we're not talking about 4G. All of AT&T's "4G" markets are being upgraded to 21mbit/s HSPA+. You're implying that the iPhone 4S is 21mbit/s HSPA+. It is not.
 
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dranakin

macrumors 6502
Mar 6, 2005
423
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Did you even read rjohnstone's informative post and the links? 14.4mbit/s is revision 7 and revision 7 is HSPA+.

You know this for a fact how?

If it's HSDPA running at 14.4Mbps as Apple is advertising, it's HSPA+ ;)

I didn't finish editing before you got to reply. HSDPA running at 14.4Mbps shouldn't be considered HSPA+. HSPA+ should be 21mbit/s and upwards.
 
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rjohnstone

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Dec 28, 2007
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There's actually very few good articles out there but here's a credible one that you guys may (or may not) find interesting.
The article more or less skirted the issue just as Apple did.
According to the article, the 4S meets AT&T's standard to be called 4G.
Apple is simply looking the other way on the matter so they can call the iPhone 5 the first 4G iPhone, but you know AT&T will market the crap out of it as the only one having a 4G iPhone and bash Verizon and Sprint in the process.

At the end of the day, I'm more pissed that the ITU caved at let any of these carriers call HSPA+ 4G when even their LTE and WiMax deployments fail to meet the agreed upon definition of 4G.
Hell, WiMax (Sprint's deployed version anyway) is slower than HSPA+.

Let the marking fun begin. :cool:
 
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profets

macrumors 601
Mar 18, 2009
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5,287
No.. it's not.
HSPA+ is anything ABOVE 14.0 Mbps.
Read the release standards. :rolleyes:

Isn't it possible to have HSDPA (not HSPA+) at 14mbps? That's what it looks like from searching around. All we know officially is apple calling it HSDPA 14.4mbps, wouldn't they have said HSPA+? Maybe it isn't using 3GPP release 7 or newer to classify it as HSPA+?

The article more or less skirted the issue just as Apple did.
According to the article, the 4S meets AT&T's standard to be called 4G.
Apple is simply looking the other way on the matter so they can call the iPhone 5 the first 4G iPhone, but you know AT&T will market the crap out of it as the only one having a 4G iPhone and bash Verizon and Sprint in the process.

At the end of the day, I'm more pissed that the ITU caved at let any of these carriers call HSPA+ 4G when even their LTE and WiMax deployments fail to meet the agreed upon definition of 4G.
Hell, WiMax (Sprint's deployed version anyway) is slower than HSPA+.

Let the marking fun begin. :cool:

Completely agree. The 3G and 4G nonsense needs to go away. I'm kind of impressed that Apple backed off of that marketing term and went just for a description of what the phone has.
 
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bigjobby

macrumors 65816
Apr 7, 2010
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0
London, UK
The article more or less skirted the issue just as Apple did...

Thought you might have read that. :D

Here's something else for you to digest. Apple's implementation sits in HS-DSCH cat 7/8, (ie. 3GPP Release 5), they throw in another antenna to 'hash-up' a HSPA+-like speed setup, albeit at the very low end. Whether the extra antenna is actually configured for MIMO is anyone's guess at the moment and there's no real point in speculating without any further info.

Just remember that the 3GPP specification (eg. HSPA, HSPA+, ...) is not determined by the data rates but by how its derived and what underpins it eg. bits/symbol rates, coding rates etc.

Anyway, do agree with you totally with regards to the ITU caving in and reclassifying 4G last year. To say 14.4Mb/s is 4G is completely laughable!

Signing off, its been an interesting one and my theories will probably be out the window in the next few days anyway. :)
 

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rjohnstone

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Dec 28, 2007
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PHX, AZ.
Isn't it possible to have HSDPA (not HSPA+) at 14mbps? That's what it looks like from searching around. All we know officially is apple calling it HSDPA 14.4mbps, wouldn't they have said HSPA+? Maybe it isn't using 3GPP release 7 or newer to classify it as HSPA+?
Sure it is.
It is most likely using Release 5 maxed out, which is confusing as to why they would intentional cripple the MDM6600 radio this way. :confused:
Again, this is assuming they are using the same radio that was in the Verizon iPhone 4.

Going to release 7 will improve latency and overall performance.

When Motorola pushed out the Release 7 update to my Atrix, my download speeds went from averaging under 3Mbps to around 6Mbps. Upload speeds went from the 300k range to over 2Mbps.

The radio may be able to hit 14.4 down and 5.76 up, but by the time you factor in overhead and network load, you can expect about half that on average under real world conditions.
 
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profets

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Mar 18, 2009
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Sure it is.
It is most likely using Release 5 maxed out, which is confusing as to why they would intentional cripple the MDM6600 radio this way. :confused:
Again, this is assuming they are using the same radio that was in the Verizon iPhone 4.

Going to release 7 will improve latency and overall performance.

When Motorola pushed out the Release 7 update to my Atrix, my download speeds went from averaging under 3Mbps to around 6Mbps. Upload speeds went from the 300k range to over 2Mbps.

The radio may be able to hit 14.4 down and 5.76 up, but by the time you factor in overhead and network load, you can expect about half that on average under real world conditions.

Cool.. Curious to try it out. I've had pretty good results with the 4 for download and upload in canada. the hsupa upload was always quite fast. Good to hear about release 7 improving latency as well.
 
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