David Pogue: New iMacs and Mac Pros Coming 'Probably in 2013' [Update]

[rotorblade69]

I was wondering, and don't have the time to look through all the pages.

I wonder if some one has mentioned or maybe brought up the idea that Apple would turn the MacPro into a Midrange desktop in size.

Gets smaller and becomes what some have speculated for years about a true headless mac, IE a Mini tower, Mid range desktop. Without the card market and with thunderbolt ports would the need for 4 PCI slots and 4 HD bays and 2 Optical disk drives be a little too much space that can be better spent on making the Pro loose some mass.

Say 2 PCI slots(one Extra wide for graphics cards), Lots of Thunderbolt USB3 ports front and back, next gen Sandy Bridge processors, 2 SSD drive bays, a Real full sized Graphics Card, and a trim new look.

Maybe 2 desktop lines and 2 displays. A 24" retina for the Notebook folks and a 27"-30" Pro's. The mini goes away the iMac stays. But the iMac has one screen size and keeps the the mobile aspect of the guts of it like they build them now.

I told the wife I'm buying her an updated iMac when they release them. Her 2010 13" MBP is nice but a desktop is nicer. Note I said UPDATED. Not some bastardized Tuneup like the Mac Pro got at WWDC last week, but a somewhat different look maybe. I would buy the above MacPro if they built it, but I could make do with her new iMac. You remember the days when the computer sat on the desk next to your monitor.

I don't think they will kill the Pro based on what Tim Cooks email said about "something really great for later next year". But it had better give me a warm fuzzy just thinking about it.

I can dream can't I.

 

[Umbongo]

I was wondering, and don't have the time to look through all the pages.

I wonder if some one has mentioned or maybe brought up the idea that Apple would turn the MacPro into a Midrange desktop in size.

Yeah I'm sure it has on one of these pages and a lot over the past week in the Mac Pro sub-forum. Even before WWDC people were talking about it yet again.

Who does it benefit though? Those who want performance aren't asking for smaller workstations. Those who own Mac Pros don't seem to be the ones asking for smaller boxes. PC enthusiasts aren't going to be interested, their cases are usually bigger than the Mac Pro's these days. The business world already has mini's and iMacs that will take up less space.

Also how small could Apple really get such a system and keep it whisper quiet yet give it performance? HP and Dell's workstations of this type are like an inch thinner, couple of inches shorter and an inch less deep than their other models which are of similar size to the Mac Pro.

Usually those who want this see the reduction in size as some cost saving exercise. It wouldn't be as the $2,499 Mac pro already has what are essentially the higher end of mid-range components in it's $300 processor, $150 GPU, $50 memory etc.

Also thunderbolt is not a solution for a second processor, more memory or high-end graphics cards (it can't push the bandwidth). It also starts to go against the simplicity Apple have pushed in their products.

 

[AidenShaw]

HP and Dell's workstations of this type are like an inch thinner, couple of inches shorter and an inch less deep than their other models which are of similar size to the Mac Pro.

Oh please, check before posting:

http://www.dell.com/us/enterprise/p/desktops-n-workstations?redirect=1#!

 

[Umbongo]

Oh please, check before posting:

Image​

http://www.dell.com/us/enterprise/p/desktops-n-workstations?redirect=1#!

I use the term workstation in the same context as HP and Dell do. I'm talking about HP's Z series and Dell's Precision line.

 

[AidenShaw]

...HP and Dell's workstations of this type are like an inch thinner, couple of inches shorter and an inch less deep than their other models which are of similar size to the Mac Pro.

I use the term workstation in the same context as HP and Dell do. I'm talking about HP's Z series and Dell's Precision line.

Not really true - Dell's workstation line has a system that's just a little more than half the size of the Mac Pro.

         Height  Width   Depth   Volume    % of Mac Pro
T1650     36.0    17.5    43.5  27405.0        54.8
T3600     41.4    17.3    47.1  33656.0        67.3
T7600     43.8    21.6    54.5  51561.4       103.1
Mac Pro   51.1    20.6    47.5  50001.4       100.0

 

[-hh]

Seriously?! Speaking as a power user myself, I sometimes wonder why I pay a premium for a Mac Pro, with parts inferior to what's currently available for PCs, and have to wait so long for a proper upgrade.

"Our pro customers are really important to us...don't worry as we're working on something really great for later next year."

...then why bother introducing three ridiculous "upgrades" yet letting word out that there'll be a newer Mac Pro coming out? This plan is set up to fail! I can't stress how much more appealing PCs are starting to look.

IMO, this Mac Pro refresh would have been better served as a quiet bump 1-3 months ago & completely disjointed from WWDC.

Insofar as my own IT needs, my production machine went unstable in May and this announcement means I'm out of time. Probably will buy a mini if I can't quickly find a used MP to buy from all of the Pros who will now be dumping Apple ... so the "Best Case" scenario for Apple is an 80% reduction in their revenue from me...which means that they just went screaming past POS Adobe's revenue losses...


AFAIC, the 2011 MP should have had SATA 3, USB3, Thunderbolt, newer GPU, etc.... There's no excuse of not enough room inside a MP case, nor budget on a $3k machine.


Sorry Tim - it's just business (mine)


-hh

 

[damir00]

Not really true - Dell's workstation line has a system that's just a little more than half the size of the Mac Pro.

         Height  Width   Depth   Volume    % of Mac Pro
T1650     36.0    17.5    43.5  27405.0        54.8
T3600     41.4    17.3    47.1  33656.0        67.3
T7600     43.8    21.6    54.5  51561.4       103.1
Mac Pro   51.1    20.6    47.5  50001.4       100.0

​

The T3600 is a single-socket system. You have to go up to the bigger T5600 to get the dual-socket systems Apple will be shipping.

 

[Umbongo]

Not really true - Dell's workstation line has a system that's just a little more than half the size of the Mac Pro.

I never said they didn't have one with such volume . I said that Dell and HP's systems with the specs people ask for in an xMac - systems such as the Z210 and T1650 - are only slightly smaller than the systems that are comparable* to the Mac Pro - Z420, Z620, T3600, T5600.

*By comparable I didn't mean in size; I meant in terms of feature/performance. I should have clarified that and perhaps noted Dell and HP already have smaller workstations than Apple - due to the age and handles on the Mac Pro enclosure.

I feel the reality is that it isn't a big issue for most of the potential Mac Pro buyers. I know for some space is an issue, but it just seems to be that the majority clamouring for the xMac seem to be more focused on price than anything and it comes across that they think consumer parts and a smaller case will shave off $1,000. Not so they can fit more workstations in a small space.

----------

The T3600 is a single-socket system. You have to go up to the bigger T5600 to get the dual-socket systems Apple will be shipping.

T5600 is the same size

 

[Moonjumper]

I feel the reality is that it isn't a big issue for most of the potential Mac Pro buyers. I know for some space is an issue, but it just seems to be that the majority clamouring for the xMac seem to be more focused on price than anything and it comes across that they think consumer parts and a smaller case will shave off $1,000. Not so they can fit more workstations in a small space.

Yes. Price is keeping a lot of potential buyers away, including me. The Mac Pro is great because of upgradability, repairability, and the choice of monitors (I hate the glossy iMac screen) that I don't have to change with each new purchase, but the price is beyond what I want to spend.

I hope for an xMac that has the desktop component equivalents of the laptop one in the iMac, and a price that will be equivalent to an iMac when monitor price is added to the xMac.

There have been strong rumours of Apple considering dropping the Mac Pro. Their way to save it may be to widen the potential market by making it cheaper. But I hope it still meets the needs of the current customers, perhaps by offering the same styling in 2 sizes to fit desktop and server components.

 

[rotorblade69]

Damn I really stirred the pot and didn't even mean too. Its just theory at this point but something tells me the Pro is due to go on a diet.

I was talking to a friend this morning at the range and we were talking computers and the MacPro "Update" Came up. Yeah He said he had heard where they had pulled all product off shelves and where the update was a damn joke. Then I mentioned the possibility of a Mid Sized desktop and the Tim Cook Email, but didn't know how they could control heat in a smaller box.

Then he reminded me of something.

The Power Mac G4 Cube. I said yes I have one still in the box that works. Well He had one back in the day too, and after the Apple press release saying they were dropping them he sold it on Egay for more than he paid for it. Well he reminded me of that huge power supply brick. Yep I said I remember that thing I had to set it on the desk behind my display it was so big, the desk I had was a glass desk and you could see everything up under it. Behind the display was the best place for it along with all those damn wires and **** coiled up on top of it.

We talked for little while longer between cold range calls. Then he reminded me that the bottom 1/5th of the MP is power supply that needs to be cooled. Then Processor bay, Graphics card area, and then drive bays. The reason they had to do this was the G5 processor. They take the power supply out making it external, loose a pci slot or 2, only 1 Optical disk drive (if they don't get rid of it totally ), and 1 or 2 HDD maybe 1 HDD and 1 Blade SSD for OS.

Apple wants stuff smaller. OK praise be to Jobs and all that is holy, I guess its time for apple to make everything smaller and the mac pro is the last BIG OLE BITCH in the room left to go on a diet.

Glad I don't work for apple.

 

[calaverasgrande]

Who does it benefit though? Those who want performance aren't asking for smaller workstations. Those who own Mac Pros don't seem to be the ones asking for smaller boxes. PC enthusiasts aren't going to be interested, their cases are usually bigger than the Mac Pro's these days. The business world already has mini's and iMacs that will take up less space.

Pc enthusiast cases are bigger than Mac Pros? I find that hard to believe. I used to be a "PC enthusiast" before I worked full time in IT. The Shuttle series of cases were immensely popular when they came out. I believe they still are judging by the continued interest in micro/miniITX motherboards. ALso the advent of SSDs has done away with the need for multiple 3.5" drive bays. Contemporary premium wintel motherboards include every single kind of interface from optical TOSLINK, esata and serial dsub to USB3 and even thunderbolt on the newest Asus boards.They pretty much just need a case big enough to hold a video card and several 2.5" SSDs.
The only Mac Pro sized cases I see are some Dell and HP workstations like teh Z800 series. THe silly thing is we have a dozen of those at my work and we use ZERO PCIe slots. They just happen to be Avid spec, and the suits like to see a big heavy box when they spend $10k+on a workstation.

That all said, I love the Mac Pro internals. Like the MBP its a breeze to work on. Tool-less access to ram, HDD, and CPU. They need to just slim it down by 30% but keep the same general design.

 

[rotorblade69]

Yes. Price is keeping a lot of potential buyers away, including me. The Mac Pro is great because of upgradability, repairability, and the choice of monitors (I hate the glossy iMac screen) that I don't have to change with each new purchase, but the price is beyond what I want to spend.

I hope for an xMac that has the desktop component equivalents of the laptop one in the iMac, and a price that will be equivalent to an iMac when monitor price is added to the xMac.

There have been strong rumours of Apple considering dropping the Mac Pro. Their way to save it may be to widen the potential market by making it cheaper. But I hope it still meets the needs of the current customers, perhaps by offering the same styling in 2 sizes to fit desktop and server components.

One way to make something cheaper is to reduce the general over all mass. Lets take this for example, from a buddy who does engineering studies for companies.

If you have a beam that 10 feet long and weights 10 pounds. Some one wants it bigger, how bigger 100 foot long. OK well thats a square of that 10 feet. Ok so thats 100 pounds now right? WRONG its not 100 pounds.

Its 1000 pounds. You cube the mass when you square the dimension.

The same applies to reduction in dimensions although starting with the size of the MP and scaling it down a ways yields less dramatic numbers in weight savings. BUT also scaling down means less material and less material is a savings.
Will we see a reduction in the price? Who knows But if it helps in the sales department sure lower price may come.

Also think of this apple has been working with notebooks making them smaller custom components, and improving cooling. Maybe apple believes they are able now to shrink the size of the MacPro down and with what they have learned from the notebook line about cooling, and custom components.

Maybe the next 12 months will be a good time for Pro's to reconcile their budgets business and instead of buying a new box, maybe pay down the debt and trim some fat.

 

[AidenShaw]

The T3600 is a single-socket system. You have to go up to the bigger T5600 to get the dual-socket systems Apple will be shipping.

And what's wrong with a single socket Xeon system being smaller than a dual socket system?

I'd call that a feature!

By the way, the prices work out for comparable systems:

• $1939 - Dell T1650 (3.1 GHz Ivy Bridge E3-1225v2, 8 GiB ECC, 1 TB, 1 GiB Firepro V4900)
• $2823 - Quad Mac Pro (3.2 GHz Bloomfield W3565, 8 GiB, Applecare)

 

[Umbongo]

Pc enthusiast cases are bigger than Mac Pros? I find that hard to believe. I used to be a "PC enthusiast" before I worked full time in IT. The Shuttle series of cases were immensely popular when they came out.

Top 10 reviewed cases on Newegg range from 85% to 150% the size of the Mac Pro. The Mac Pro would be 15% smaller without the handles. Really though all these cases take up the same sort of space when you've got all your cables connected and external devices and what not.

Obviously the much smaller form factors make a difference, but you aren't getting the same possible performance in them that Mac Pro owners seem to want.

 

[AidenShaw]

Top 10 reviewed cases on Newegg range from 85% to 150% the size of the Mac Pro.

Interesting, but mostly meaningless.

It says nothing about the sales of various sized cases, nor about the sales of pre-built systems.

 

[damir00]

And what's wrong with a single socket Xeon system being smaller than a dual socket system?

Who said it's "wrong"?

 

[RBR2]

I agree, the entry level Mac Tower HAS to be something Apple realise a lot of people need.

What about people working with audio who want to spec out their Mac from day 1 with dual internal drives/SSDs and a large RAID 1 set for storage of general files and backup?

I currently have a SATA PCI card with an SSD as my system drive, just to scrape that little bit more performance out of my old Mac, a 7200rpm SATA drive I use for general storage and a partition for audio recording with Pro Tools LE and an internal ATA drive I use for backup of the system drive.

I also have an external USB 2.0 drive for backup and 2 monitors of my choice that I have no desire to replace with an all-in-one.

I "could" configure a used Mac Pro with all those drives internally, elimitating the bottleneck of USB 2.0 altogether, still use my 2 screens and have a system I can get a few years use but it would have to be used, not new because there's no expandible Mac system in the price range of the entry level towers of the G3 - G5 days.

It would be a false economy too. They're very power-hungry from an electric bill point of view, only offer SATA 3Gb/s which is potentially limiting if I intend using software sampler libraries at a later date after updating to Pro Tools 10.

I'm getting a used 2007 Mac Mini as a tie over for a few hundred off eBay later in the year and then waiting to see what happens with future Mac Mini models.

Unless there's a system that fills the void between the iMac and the Mac Pro, it's my only option and the Core i5/i7 series CPUs are so powerful, they're at least 60-70% the speed of a £2000+ Mac Pro from a raw CPU power point of view and with SATA 6Gb/s and cheap RAM expansion, I could use the older Core 2 Duo model Mac Mini as a media centre through my TV then buy a newer model Mac Mini with the following extras and warranty voiding upgrades for less than £800:-

1) Mac Mini 2.3Ghz - I don't care about gaming performance and the increase in CPU power of the 2.5Ghz model is insignificant.

2) Thunderbolt to DVI adapter

3) 16Gb RAM from Crucial

4) 240Gb Agility 3 SSD + Lowerflex cable, Mac Mini motherboard removal tool and 11-piece Newertech toolkit

5) Add my current SSD to use as a recording drive using the Lower Flex cable and the Agility 3 as the system drive voiding my warranty in the process unless I go the used route for the Core i5 Mac Mini aswell then use the drive the Core i5 mini came with in the other model I'm using a media centre.

this would be the cheapest option and get me 1 system dedicated to my media library/iTunes etc and a dedicated audio only setup that would run Pro Tools 10 quite adequately but I'd still have at least one 3.5" drive lying around unused.

If there was an affordable, entry level, i7 based tower system built using desktop class, not laptop or server class components with equal internal expansion to my current G4 (2 x 3.5" drive bays, 1 x 2.5" bay, 1 x optical bay and several PCI slots), I'm sure a lot of people would buy them over the iMac or Mac Mini or even buy a Mac in the first place if they simply HAD to get a Windows PC because they couldn't manage with the compromises involved in Apple's range of Laptops and Laptops for your desk.

Apple are pretty much clueless when it comes to this segment. They don't even understand why more and more people in this segment are exiting the Mac platform. Even if Apple do not formally kill the MP, they are killing it by neglect.

Sure, appearance counts for something, just look at what the case modders do to amuse themselves, but for work purposes, these are desk side, not desk top, computers whether they are true workstation class computers or lesser configured towers for the flexibility of an accessible case. It is what they computer can do that matters and whether it represents value. Increasingly Apple have delivered neither in a competitive manner.

I see little likelihood that Apple will change their attitude about this segment. The question is whether one wishes to build something to try to use the OS or is prepared to simply cut the cord and going with something that better suits their needs.

This is a pretty discouraging time for people in this segment.

 

[AidenShaw]

This is a pretty discouraging time for people Apple users in this segment.

Fixed it for you.

There are a lot of choices for Linux/Windows desktops/workstations - it only sucks if you want to run Apple OSX on a supported system.

 

[iEdd]

If you have a beam that 10 feet long and weights 10 pounds. Some one wants it bigger, how bigger 100 foot long. OK well thats a square of that 10 feet. Ok so thats 100 pounds now right? WRONG its not 100 pounds.

Its 1000 pounds. You cube the mass when you square the dimension.

I think you're leaving something out here. That could very well be the case in civil engineering, where for a longer beam, you want more bending strength by increasing 2nd moment of area, i.e. make the beam's cross section bigger as well as its length, so things tend to grow exponentially.

But if you ignored that, and just made a 10" beam 100", it would be 10x the original mass, i.e. 100 pounds, not 1000. There's no mathematical relationship saying that you square a dimension and cube another like that. The units won't come out correctly either.
(10*10lb = 100lb != (10lb)^2 = 100lb^2)

I suspect what you're thinking of is if you reduce one dimension (e.g. thickness) on a macbook by dx, the volumetric change is L*W*dx, which may well be sizeable, so if you assume a constant density, the weight will drop. Is that assumption correct though? I don't think so. When things get thinner, you tend to cram the same stuff into a smaller space, so density increases. The weight stays about the same.

 

[RBR2]

Fixed it for you.

There are a lot of choices for Linux/Windows desktops/workstations - it only sucks if you want to run Apple OSX on a supported system.

Precisely!

Cheers

 

[damir00]

There are a lot of choices for Linux/Windows desktops/workstations - it only sucks if you want to run Apple OSX on a supported system.

From the lack of size of the hackintosh market, I'm guessing there really just aren't all that many people who would actually buy a Mac Pro.

 

[toke lahti]

I was talking to a friend this morning at the range and we were talking computers and the MacPro "Update" Came up. Yeah He said he had heard where they had pulled all product off shelves and where the update was a damn joke. Then I mentioned the possibility of a Mid Sized desktop and the Tim Cook Email, but didn't know how they could control heat in a smaller box.

Then he reminded me of something.

The Power Mac G4 Cube. I said yes I have one still in the box that works. Well He had one back in the day too, and after the Apple press release saying they were dropping them he sold it on Egay for more than he paid for it. Well he reminded me of that huge power supply brick. Yep I said I remember that thing I had to set it on the desk behind my display it was so big, the desk I had was a glass desk and you could see everything up under it. Behind the display was the best place for it along with all those damn wires and **** coiled up on top of it.

We talked for little while longer between cold range calls. Then he reminded me that the bottom 1/5th of the MP is power supply that needs to be cooled. Then Processor bay, Graphics card area, and then drive bays. The reason they had to do this was the G5 processor. They take the power supply out making it external, loose a pci slot or 2, only 1 Optical disk drive (if they don't get rid of it totally ), and 1 or 2 HDD maybe 1 HDD and 1 Blade SSD for OS.

Apple wants stuff smaller. OK praise be to Jobs and all that is holy, I guess its time for apple to make everything smaller and the mac pro is the last BIG OLE BITCH in the room left to go on a diet.

Glad I don't work for apple.

Also Apple's customers want smaller.
Smaller expandable desktop.
But Apple doesn't want to sell this.
They want things smaller for excuse on upgradeability.
In Airs & MBPr you can't change anything anymore.
They took away option to add ram or change storage(hdd/sdd).

When MP is used like it should (using all hdd bays and pcie slots), there's no space wasted.
But when MP is used like xMac, because Apple does not offer you xMac, you your box has double size for what you'd need.

 

[AidenShaw]

From the lack of size of the hackintosh market, I'm guessing there really just aren't all that many people who would actually buy a Mac Pro.

What is the size of the Hackintosh market?

 

[zimv20]

From the lack of size of the hackintosh market, I'm guessing there really just aren't all that many people who would actually buy a Mac Pro.

i considered some alternatives, but last night made my decision and ordered the 6-core macpro. i'll be installing 32 gig RAM from OWC, moving over my audio drives, installing a ProTools Native card, and calling that my audio machine for the next 8-10 years.

by all user accounts, PT Native in a 6-core MP looks to be a hell of a tracking/mixing/composing workstation.

this will be replacing my 2005 dual G5 w/ 8 gig RAM running Tiger. a machine which not only has been great for me, but needs replacing only because my new PT system requires a pci-e slot and an intel chip.

though initially disappointed with the MP updates, i realized that i don't need TB, the existing components are more than adequate for what i do, and that the $700 price drop more than covers the cost of the RAM.

i also think these are the last of the behemoth machines from Apple. whatever they come up for pro's next will be smaller, which for me might have been good or bad depending on what they left out. in addition, i have work to do, and waiting any longer wasn't really an option.

best of luck to everyone still contemplating their next move.

 

[calaverasgrande]

Top 10 reviewed cases on Newegg range from 85% to 150% the size of the Mac Pro. The Mac Pro would be 15% smaller without the handles. Really though all these cases take up the same sort of space when you've got all your cables connected and external devices and what not.

Obviously the much smaller form factors make a difference, but you aren't getting the same possible performance in them that Mac Pro owners seem to want.

Those are just gamer cases. Besides, highest rated on Newegg hardly equates to highest sold in general.
If however you look at the size categories the models fall into;

ATX Bench Case (2)
ATX Desktop (4)
ATX Full Tower (79)
ATX Mid Tower (322)
ATX Mini Tower (3)
ATX Super Tower (7)

mid tower wipes the floor with full tower. The number of mid tower cases is 4 times the number of full tower cases.
Either way, newegg doesn't really serve the Workstation using pro market.