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I will point out that nobody ever talks about chip yields for particular chip designs, only for fab processes, e.g.:


"For example, TSMC's 5-nanometer yield has risen from 50% to 80% in just a month after mass production, the 7-nanometer trial production rate is over 70%, and the 4-nanometer yield is 70%.

But for the 3nm part, the media has repeatedly revealed that TSMC's 3nm yield still has a lot of room for improvement. TSMC originally planned to mass-produce semiconductors for Intel and Apple with 3nm technology starting in July, but it has been unable to achieve the desired yield level. This can also be used to explain why the A15 Bionic SoC processor of Apple's iPhone 13 in 2021 is still using TSMC 5nm!"

Nobody ever talks about yields of particular chip designs, because yields are a fab thing, not a design thing.
How is this in any way relevant to the question of how easy it is to switch a fab line to new microarchitecture?

You said switching to a different microarchitecture is simple, because it requries nothing more than a mask change. ["...you just make a new mask, and you can swap masks whenever you want. The rest of the fabrication process is the same."]

I replied I don't think that's correct because you'd need different metal layers to go along with the different architecture. I added making these layers is a complex process, so I think switching would be far less trivial than how you portrayed it.
 
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SO WHAT is one to do? get the on sale powerful M1 MBP 14" that is a bit heavier... (so this machine is basically better than the M2 AIR, 16gb, 512) by the mini LED, anything else?
-I have the Air m2 now and its great, keyboard seems shallow? and the base seems flimsy... sure it is just me! LOL
So do you keep a M2 AIR because its the latest tech? or go for the deal, knowing something new will be coming in the fall?
You can hold off buying on rumor, but I recommend never buying on rumor. The latest rumor, [cough], is that the MacBook Pros will ship between fourth quarter of 2022 and second quarter of 2023, a giant six month gap. Even I can push a rumor like that with nothing behind it but just a passage of time. In other words, we have no clue when they come out. It took 18 months for the Air M2 to come out after the Air M1. 18 months for the MBP’s would put them solidly in the first half of 2023. If you can wait that long, go for it.

Otherwise, it all depends on your workflow. Do you need the power of a 14” M1 Pro? It’s still significantly faster in almost every way than the Air, with the possible exception of launching apps since the single cores are individually better. The argument most people miss when pushing people towards an M1 Pro is that not everyone needs it. If you find yourself upgrading RAM, CPU, and storage on the Air, maybe go for the 14”. If you’re not upgrading most of those, don’t because the price gap is still huge. But if you do get a 14”, these are likely the best prices we’ll see in a long time.
 
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How is this in any way relevant to the question of how easy it is to switch a fab line to new microarchitecture?

You said switching to a different microarchitecture is simple, because it requries nothing more than a mask change. ["...you just make a new mask, and you can swap masks whenever you want. The rest of the fabrication process is the same."]

I replied I don't think that's correct because you'd need different metal layers to go along with the different architecture. I added making these layers is a complex process, so I think switching would be far less trivial than how you portrayed it.

Sorry, I thought you were continuing the discussion about yields and saying that the extra complication of multiple layers would reduce yields.


You're right that the process is more complicated than just switching out one single mask. Apparently TSMC's more modern processes require that between 81 and 115 masks be made per design.
 
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You can hold off buying on rumor, but I recommend never buying on rumor. The latest rumor, [cough], is that the MacBook Pros will ship between fourth quarter of 2022 and second quarter of 2023, a giant six month gap. ...

From a product lineup standpoint, it's kind of odd and confusing that the Pros are on the previous generation chip.

Like if Apple made a new iPhone 14 without releasing corresponding Pro versions.

I would be surprised if the MacBook Pros aren't updated before Q2 2023.
 
From a product lineup standpoint, it's kind of odd and confusing that the Pros are on the previous generation chip.

Like if Apple made a new iPhone 14 without releasing corresponding Pro versions.

I would be surprised if the MacBook Pros aren't updated before Q2 2023.
It did take eleven months between the release of the first M1 Macs and the M1 Pro/Max MBP's. I'm not sure what took so long, but to be fair, the M1 Pro/Max are far more complicated than just the CPU/GPU/NE cores. They didn't have to reinvent those, but the M1 Max, in particular, is a huge chip. Apple also had to work out the interconnects for the future M1 Ultra chip.

If the same eleven month gap happens with the M2 Pro/Max, then we should expect them around WWDC next year. Hopefully, it's sooner than that because 18 months is a lot of lost time given that Intel and AMD are producing new chips annually. And given A-series are produced every year, going with an 18-month schedule ends up falling way behind their own chips. The A16 would be 9-months old before coming out with an A15-based M-series. Then the following M3 Pro/Max would be two generations behind.
 
It did take eleven months between the release of the first M1 Macs and the M1 Pro/Max MBP's. I'm not sure what took so long, but to be fair, the M1 Pro/Max are far more complicated than just the CPU/GPU/NE cores. They didn't have to reinvent those, but the M1 Max, in particular, is a huge chip. Apple also had to work out the interconnects for the future M1 Ultra chip.

If the same eleven month gap happens with the M2 Pro/Max, then we should expect them around WWDC next year. Hopefully, it's sooner than that because 18 months is a lot of lost time given that Intel and AMD are producing new chips annually. And given A-series are produced every year, going with an 18-month schedule ends up falling way behind their own chips. The A16 would be 9-months old before coming out with an A15-based M-series. Then the following M3 Pro/Max would be two generations behind.

My assumption has been that Apple has entered the iterative phase of these designs, i.e., now that Apple has made the M1 Pro, it should be relatively easy for them to make an M2 Pro... just swap in the updated M2 components.

I may be wrong.
 
From a product lineup standpoint, it's kind of odd and confusing that the Pros are on the previous generation chip.

Like if Apple made a new iPhone 14 without releasing corresponding Pro versions.

I would be surprised if the MacBook Pros aren't updated before Q2 2023.
yes I agree completely, its very odd...
 
I would love to pick one of these up…I really don’t need one but after seeing the 14” MBP display for the first time the other day, I want one.
 
From a product lineup standpoint, it's kind of odd and confusing that the Pros are on the previous generation chip.
Unless Apple releases every computer at the same time, its always going to be that way. If we extrapolate the way things will be based on the M1s and M2s, there will be two situations.

1. The MBs will be a little faster for day-to-day tasks (single core), and the MBPs will be a lot faster for power tasks (multi-core).
2. The MBs and MBPs will be equally fast for day-to-day tasks, and a whole lot faster in power tasks.

In Intel days we didn't worry too much about that, unless a new computer (especially a redesign) was imminent you just bought when you needed it because you keep computers for several generations of chips so there will always eb a time when yours wont be the fastest. After a couple of M# generations we will go back to not worrying if the consumer chip is a little newer than the Pro chip.
 
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Great deal on the base 14” MacBook Pro.
Only if you get the $2199 model. The $1749 model is sort of sold out. You can still buy it but it won’t arrive until September 2. By that time, many other sales may happen on both the Air and the MBP’s.
 
I was torn whether I was gonna keep this or not after playing with it a few weeks coming from my 2017 MacBook Pro 13' cause I know I definitely do not need it but this price has pretty much sealed it for me. Excellent computer.
 
Unless Apple releases every computer at the same time, its always going to be that way. If we extrapolate the way things will be based on the M1s and M2s, there will be two situations.

1. The MBs will be a little faster for day-to-day tasks (single core), and the MBPs will be a lot faster for power tasks (multi-core).
2. The MBs and MBPs will be equally fast for day-to-day tasks, and a whole lot faster in power tasks.

In Intel days we didn't worry too much about that, unless a new computer (especially a redesign) was imminent you just bought when you needed it because you keep computers for several generations of chips so there will always eb a time when yours wont be the fastest. After a couple of M# generations we will go back to not worrying if the consumer chip is a little newer than the Pro chip.

Yeah, the chips don't all have to match, but I would have expected Apple to release the new Pro chips first.

As is, we've got a lot of confused people wondering if the 13" MBP with an M2 is better than a 14" MBP with an M1, or what.

Or people like me, who are reluctant to purchase a 14" MBP because it seems like a refresh must be happening any day now...
 
Man, I can have one of these before lunchtime at my local Best Buy. It would make my wife happy because I'd stop stealing her (base) M1 MBA, and I firmly believe in buying base models for people like me who just use these computers as personal electronic devices. It's overkill for any workflow I could even imagine how to throw at it, but that screen/speakers/webcam/processor/battery life would be a small quality of life improvement for me. It's a good thing I don't have my credit card number memorized, even though my wallet is only in the next room...
 
It's like we're being constantly punished for being Canadian. For many years you couldn't buy Macs on Amazon.ca -- they weren't even listed. Now they're available but never, ever on sale. Even when the US/CDN exchange rate was in our favour (favor) Macs still cost way more here. And the shipping fees! I can drive to Michigan in 45-mins but shipping fees across the border are insane... last month I bought a popular online weather station for $289 US and paid $160 CDN to get it here. Seriously, more than 50% of its value to ship something the size of a shoebox. I don't even order from my long-time favourite (favorite) 3rd-party Mac accessory supplier in Illinois anymore because their shipping quotes often exceed the value of the product. It's crazy. Pretty sure I've bought FedEx a 747 or two all by myself. Ugh.
If you live only 45 minutes from Michigan, why don't you order your mac online, and arrange to have it picked up at the Apple store in Michigan?
 
Before in the day, when you could upgrade RAM and SATA drives, I would buy my computers from any third party other than Apple (due to the Apple store price penalty). However, now, I have to buy my Macs at the Apple Store and upgrade the machine to future proof it (since I can’t upgrade it anymore). When my kids went off to college, I maxed out their MacBook Airs. Now, it’s time for daddy to get a new laptop (upgrading from a 2010 MacBook Pro, 16 GB of RAM and 2 TB Samsung SSD)…going to a baseline 2021 MacBook Pro 14 inch M1Pro with 32 Gb of RAM and 2 TB (should last me for the next 10 years). The Amazon store price is good, but you can’t can’t 32 Gb of RAM or a 2 TB SSD.
 
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Before in the day, when you could upgrade RAM and SATA drives, I would buy my computers from any third party other than Apple (due to the Apple store price penalty). However, now, I have to buy my Macs at the Apple Store and upgrade the machine to future proof it (since I can’t upgrade it anymore). When my kids went off to college, I maxed out their MacBook Airs. Now, it’s time for daddy to get a new laptop (upgrading from a 2010 MacBook Pro, 16 GB of RAM and 2 TB Samsung SSD)…going to a baseline 2021 MacBook Pro 14 inch M1Pro with 32 Gb of RAM and 2 TB (should last me for the next 10 years). The Amazon store price is good, but you can’t can’t 32 Gb of RAM or a 2 TB SSD.

The hardware itself will almost certainly last you 10+ years, but remember that the laptop will likely lose the ability to run the latest version of MacOS after 6-7 years, and then only receive intermittent security updates for two years after that.

I don't know if you need to buy a laptop that's spec'ed according to what you think you might need in 10 years.
 
If you live only 45 minutes from Michigan, why don't you order your mac online, and arrange to have it picked up at the Apple store in Michigan?
I don’t think you can order from Amazon and pick it up at an Apple store. Now, perhaps you could have it delivered to an Amazon locker or similar…?
 
how does this work exactly? I saw that as well and it seems too good to be true, lol
Just sign up for the $199 annual membership from Best Buy and you will make your money back in no time. I've saved $1,600 over the last 9 months alone. Free AppleCare with every purchase too.
 
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The deals on Amazon in the UK were enough to tip me over the edge and pick up a base 16” MBP. I was going to wait for the M2 models, but have a feeling prices will go up across the board as they did with the M2 MBA.

I still haven’t pushed mine yet, but it’s an incredible machine in every way. Very happy with my purchase.
 
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