Deciphering Apple's strategy for the notebook market

[rapidfire77]

A good 256GB SSD is under $200, a good 512GB SSD is around $400.

Try installing coconut battery before you buy a new one, it may be just that your battery is fine, but you have too many processes running in the background.
http://www.coconut-flavour.com/coconutbattery/

If your battery is fine, then you just need to optimize your system a bit. If the battery has seen better days, you can buy a new one here:
http://www.ifixit.com/MacBook-Parts/MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Unibody-Mid-2009-2010-Battery/IF161-057

On the same page, scroll down and look at the installation guide. You need two screwdrivers and about two minutes to do it.

And if you want, you can get up to 8GB of memory in your model. $35.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...s&field-keywords=1066+MHz+PC3-8500+DDR3+SDRAM

I've got a 2011 15" with SSD and 16GB of memory and don't see myself upgrading for another two years at least, assuming the logic board holds up.

Thank you!

it's at 90% of its health so it doesn't make sense that i don't get nearly as much juice out of it...i'll look into it further when i have time. Did you get the SSD in addition or as a replacement? did you notice a significant jump in responsiveness? I am down for getting rid of the DVD as i never use it.

like what you are saying and from the other responses, i know it's not worth shelling it for any of the current models. i guess people that buy do it out of necessity...or as plain madness! not sure if anyone saw the stats the other day but 75% of iPad mini adopters already own an iPad.

 

[rapidfire77]

I think they will continue milking the Air and the retinas as their main lines. Unfortunately the lack of user upgradable features is really lame and expensive. 32GB RAM and Higher capacity SSD or Fusion drives without giving away your organs is what could make a difference.
What I find very interesting is the Windows 8 and surface products that are now flooding the market, let's see how the market reacts to them and what kind of success they have and what can Apple release. Another interesting segment is the low priced under $300 books like the chrome book.
I seriously thought many years ago that the Mac OSX touch iPad/MacBook was going to be first to market, but now it seems that ala surface will be the way?

Productivity on a tablet is limited. That's why i started the thread with "forget tablets!" I can see the value in such ideas, but it will have to develop strictly out of tablet instead of replicating or chasing the laptop model. Splitting issues are keyboards, connectivity, and multitasking and more importantly, speedy interaction with the machine. Nothing is going to really replace the need of a keyboard to control and dictate your work.

Think about it a little, few years ago your entry level MB was about $700. now that's gone. and is replaced by iPads for that price. If you are a light user, I can totally see the selling point. I cannot use the iPad for anything productive. So the chrome book likes are perhaps the competition to the tablets more then they are a competition to notebooks. I think that can be determined by the individual's preference.

I'd like to focus the conversation however on the current lines of notebooks development and pricing. if we can all agree that the hybrid or tablet limits productivity. What the consumer is offered in terms of laptop choices is starting to be confusing a little.

 

[hakuin]

Thank you!

it's at 90% of its health so it doesn't make sense that i don't get nearly as much juice out of it...i'll look into it further when i have time. Did you get the SSD in addition or as a replacement? did you notice a significant jump in responsiveness? I am down for getting rid of the DVD as i never use it.

like what you are saying and from the other responses, i know it's not worth shelling it for any of the current models. i guess people that buy do it out of necessity...or as plain madness! not sure if anyone saw the stats the other day but 75% of iPad mini adopters already own an iPad.

This page will help in troubleshooting your system for better performance. It's a bit old but most of what it says is still relevant:
http://guides.macrumors.com/Enhancing_Performance_Of_Mac_OS_X

I had a 500GB 7200rpm HDD and bought a 256GB SSD. Not all my data would fit onto the SSD so I put the OS and files I really needed on the SDD, and kept a clone image of the SSD and other files on the 500GB HDD as an external drive. Anything that depends on reading or writing to the hard drive is much, much faster with an SSD. Also, since they are quicker and use less power than an HDD, it will save on battery usage.

If you want to replace the optical drive I would put the HDD in the optical drive bay and the SSD in the original. I saw a thread about $10 drive caddies on here a few days ago - one of those would probably be good enough if it fits.

 

[nickbarbs]

my comment saying that prices have/will come down was regarding the 8gb prepackaged models of the RMBP you can find them being resold by all types of resellers.

Those have already experienced a price drop, check ebay and 3rd party resellers all over the internet, you can get a better deal than directly from Apple as those models (2.3/8/256, 2.6/8/512) are the ones being sold retail / in stores, and I'm assuming there is enough supply to warrant price drops. Many resellers offer them with 3 year applecare also 300£ all in cheaper than directly from apple.

My only point is apple can fix their price but this retail market shows the true value of these machines

 

[newdeal]

...

I have a 2010 15" i5 and my battery lasts 6 hours so yours is messed up or you are playing games the whole time. I put an old intel ssd in it and it flies. The 13" air has the same resolution as the 15" and they dropped the 17" hence likely no 15" air. Most likely the next airs will have thinner bezels allowing them to shrink body size and maintain screen size. Also that may allow them to hit 16:10 in the 11" air which would be nicer. The prices of the retina are retarded, they will eventually phase out the regular pros, the retinas will drop to $100 more than the current pros and the air will be the low end. They retinas wont hit as low as the current pros just because the 13" was already priced too close to the air

 

[NewishMacGuy]

Thank you!

it's at 90% of its health so it doesn't make sense that i don't get nearly as much juice out of it...i'll look into it further when i have time. Did you get the SSD in addition or as a replacement? did you notice a significant jump in responsiveness? I am down for getting rid of the DVD as i never use it.

like what you are saying and from the other responses, i know it's not worth shelling it for any of the current models. i guess people that buy do it out of necessity...or as plain madness! not sure if anyone saw the stats the other day but 75% of iPad mini adopters already own an iPad.

If you are using you battery to watch flash videos (via the dGPU), that'll absolutely kill your battery time, especially if you've cranked the contrast to reduce the glare effect.

An SSD (or even a hybrid) will dramatically improve speed and responsiveness (for disk-based tasks). I'm assuming that you already have 8GB RAM. If you're running VMs you may want to take that up to 16GB.

 

[NewishMacGuy]

Think about it a little, few years ago your entry level MB was about $700. now that's gone. and is replaced by iPads for that price.

When was the entry level MB $700? I paid $999 for my refurb in 2007, and $999 for my 2004 iBook G4 before that.

Given the way the Fed has been printing money and the subsequent prices of non-substitutable goods (Food & Energy), it becomes evident that Apple's pricing for MBAs & MBPs has actually been DECLINING in real terms.

----------

This page will help in troubleshooting your system for better performance. It's a bit old but most of what it says is still relevant:
http://guides.macrumors.com/Enhancing_Performance_Of_Mac_OS_X

I had a 500GB 7200rpm HDD and bought a 256GB SSD. Not all my data would fit onto the SSD so I put the OS and files I really needed on the SDD, and kept a clone image of the SSD and other files on the 500GB HDD as an external drive. Anything that depends on reading or writing to the hard drive is much, much faster with an SSD. Also, since they are quicker and use less power than an HDD, it will save on battery usage.

If you want to replace the optical drive I would put the HDD in the optical drive bay and the SSD in the original. I saw a thread about $10 drive caddies on here a few days ago - one of those would probably be good enough if it fits.

You could also give yourself a Fusion drive like this fellow did:

http://tomasz.korwel.net/2012/11/04/apple-fusion-drive-on-late-2010-macbook-pro/

 

[PatriotInvasion]

My thoughts on Apple's notebook strategy:

Apple's laptops are in a transitional stage right now. Apple introduced retina MacBooks with a higher price tag for two reasons: (i) Apple is the only one offering such laptops right now, and they were priced consistently with the market (a 13" Sony Vaio Z costs US$ 1,599, so the 13" rMBP could well cost US$ 1,699); and (ii) Apple wants to test the market, i.e., see if consumers will switch from traditional Pro to the retina models even if they cost a lot more.

From 2013 or 2014 onwards, I think Apple will have two lines of notebooks, the Air and the Pro (something which is consistent with its past strategy), which will be as follows:

- The MacBook Air will get a major overhaul in 2013 or 2014, at the latest. A major redesign, and the MBA will get thinner and lighter, possibly with new materials. It will probably get a retina display too. And it will be equipped with the new ultra-low voltage Haswell processor, which will allow a much more efficient use of battery.

- The MacBook Pro will remain as the performace-wise line. The cMBP will be discontinued, and it will be entirely replaced by the rMBP.

Apple will not market the Air line as "consumer-based" or "entry-level". It's not consistent with the marketing strategy which is being adopted by Apple. The MBA will be the "thin and light" offering, and the MBP will be the "pro".

As for prices, that's very hard to guess. Prices of all these laptops may remain the same, and perhaps the price of the MBP will get a slightly drop. I would say the following, but not something very different from it:

11" low-end MBA, US$ 999
11" high-end MBA, US$ 1,099
13" low-end MBA, US$ 1,199
13" high-end MBA, US$ 1,499

13" low-end MBP, US$ 1,599
13" high-end MBP, US$ 1,799
15" low-end MBP, US$ 1,999
15" low-end MBP, US$ 2,499

----------



While that is true, the problem of Apple's approach is that it is all-or-nothing. You can get a cheaper Windows laptop with a 1080p screen, or an i7, or an SSD. If you want one of these features on a MacBook, you have to take the whole package. You can't buy a MBA or a cMBP with a 1080p screen or a dedicated video card, for instance; but you can buy a Windows laptop with such features for the same price of a MBA or a cMBP. f you want that on a Mac, it will cost a lot.

With those Windows laptops, do you get the stability of OS X, hundreds of local Apple Stores you can go to for hands on support, and gorgeous hardware free of hideous "Intel Inside" stickers?

Apple's machines are priced right compared to the competition. If you don't want to pay for them, enjoy your creaking plasticy Windows machines and 15 free months of McAfee Virus Scan...yuck.

 

[vpro]

Always.

Apple be always innovating and motivating! I think PROSumers expect the return of a 17" MacBook Pro, which will mark the finale of the classic MacBook Pro line and stream line a whole new line of notebooks, which they started with the retinas already in June of this year.

We have to continue to remember that the 13 and 15 inchers do so well because the CONSumers want portability, which is a beautiful marriage between just the right amount of power with portability. Sales only reflect that, they were sales, but the Pro of the PRO will always be the reputation of the 17" MacBook Pro which was set by Apple in the market of notebooks is concerned. They are up to something over there and I can taste it in my bones for June 2013!

Thank you.

 

[Carl Sagan]

Do people not pay attention? The MacBook Air was very expensive when it first came out then dropped later. Same with the iPod.

DON'T BUY THE FIRST OF ANYTHING APPLE RELEASE!

Simples.

 

[skaertus]

With those Windows laptops, do you get the stability of OS X, hundreds of local Apple Stores you can go to for hands on support, and gorgeous hardware free of hideous "Intel Inside" stickers?

Apple's machines are priced right compared to the competition. If you don't want to pay for them, enjoy your creaking plasticy Windows machines and 15 free months of McAfee Virus Scan...yuck.

Manufacturers of Windows laptops are finally learning (from Apple, probably) how to deliver a great user experience to consumers. While some Mac users like to spread all over the world how much better OS X is in relation to Windows, and how much better Apple's hardware is, the undeniable truth is that Apple is not on a market of its own and, yes, it has competitors (although, of course, Mac evangelists will follow Apple until the bottom of the ocean).

Apple's prices are in line with the competition, and perhaps a little on the high side, but not by too much. The fact, however, is that competitors offer a wide variety of choices that Apple don't. Although MacBooks cost from US$ 999, if you want a 15-inch with a budget of US$ 1,500 (which is pretty large for a laptop), then you're out of luck. Apple laptops with such a screen size start at US$ 1,799. If you want a Mac, there's a trade-off: you have to buy what Apple wants you to buy. It's a closed environment, and freedom is only allowed to the extent Apple wishes it to be.

 

[McGiord]

Productivity on a tablet is limited. That's why i started the thread with "forget tablets!" I can see the value in such ideas, but it will have to develop strictly out of tablet instead of replicating or chasing the laptop model. Splitting issues are keyboards, connectivity, and multitasking and more importantly, speedy interaction with the machine. Nothing is going to really replace the need of a keyboard to control and dictate your work.

Think about it a little, few years ago your entry level MB was about $700. now that's gone. and is replaced by iPads for that price. If you are a light user, I can totally see the selling point. I cannot use the iPad for anything productive. So the chrome book likes are perhaps the competition to the tablets more then they are a competition to notebooks. I think that can be determined by the individual's preference.

I'd like to focus the conversation however on the current lines of notebooks development and pricing. if we can all agree that the hybrid or tablet limits productivity. What the consumer is offered in terms of laptop choices is starting to be confusing a little.

I agree with some of your comments, but I do believe the 'hybrids' will become the mobile standard, they are real thing now, the relevant ones run Windows 8 Pro, and have touch screen capabilities, and I believe they re not crippled in any means. Am I wrong with this?
The ones you might be referring to are running Windows 8 RT, or any other stuff.

I am a Mac enthusiast, but I do recognize that the 'hybrid' concept if well executed will be the new standard for portable power computing.

It is sad that Apple has not allowed full native control of a real back to our Macs with iOS.
The iPad could work as a remote client, connecting to out Macs at home, and there you have full power without lugging all the extra weight.

They could have all clould OS and Apps solutions, then running natively whatever it is needed, kind of an OS equivalent of what the Fusion drive does. Therefore you can have your things running when you are not connected to the web.

The chromebook concept is something also feasible in Apple's ecosystem, but will cripple sales of all the current toys.

I don't like the disposable nature of the current hot Apple lineup: nothing is upgradable, and they are very expensive.

Yes, we need an entry level and powerful MacBook.

 

[NewishMacGuy]

The fact, however, is that competitors offer a wide variety of choices that Apple don't. Although MacBooks cost from US$ 999, if you want a 15-inch with a budget of US$ 1,500 (which is pretty large for a laptop), then you're out of luck. Apple laptops with such a screen size start at US$ 1,799. If you want a Mac, there's a trade-off: you have to buy what Apple wants you to buy. It's a closed environment, and freedom is only allowed to the extent Apple wishes it to be.

The online Apple Store has 3 versions of the cMBP-15 priced between $1359 and $1529, all nicer than equivalently priced Wintel laptops. Check the refurbs.

 

[skaertus]

The online Apple Store has 3 versions of the cMBP-15 priced between $1359 and $1529, all nicer than equivalently priced Wintel laptops. Check the refurbs.

Actually, I am not in search of a laptop. And if I were, I wouldn't buy a cMBP not even if it costed one third of the price. It was just an example.

 

[rapidfire77]

Manufacturers of Windows laptops are finally learning (from Apple, probably) how to deliver a great user experience to consumers. While some Mac users like to spread all over the world how much better OS X is in relation to Windows, and how much better Apple's hardware is, the undeniable truth is that Apple is not on a market of its own and, yes, it has competitors (although, of course, Mac evangelists will follow Apple until the bottom of the ocean).

Apple's prices are in line with the competition, and perhaps a little on the high side, but not by too much. The fact, however, is that competitors offer a wide variety of choices that Apple don't. Although MacBooks cost from US$ 999, if you want a 15-inch with a budget of US$ 1,500 (which is pretty large for a laptop), then you're out of luck. Apple laptops with such a screen size start at US$ 1,799. If you want a Mac, there's a trade-off: you have to buy what Apple wants you to buy. It's a closed environment, and freedom is only allowed to the extent Apple wishes it to be.

It is indeed my point that it is a closed environment. Moreover, I find this attitude of consumer justification of whatever Apple says...goes...a little naiive...especially when it doesn't make any sense. These same Mac evangelists are the ones that lose sleep over products that lack innovation in substance, but certainly dont lack it in terms of marketing and branding...which when you look at it deeply...(acknowledging the quality and the thought process in the resurgence of Apple)...how much is this company now coasting on marketing their past achievement vs. true current innovation? the cMBP line reminds me of the never changing form factor of the dell latitude line of the 90's. Apple is able to get away with it...due to the lack of critical thinking on the consumer side.

 

[rapidfire77]

I agree with some of your comments, but I do believe the 'hybrids' will become the mobile standard, they are real thing now, the relevant ones run Windows 8 Pro, and have touch screen capabilities, and I believe they re not crippled in any means. Am I wrong with this?
The ones you might be referring to are running Windows 8 RT, or any other stuff.

I am a Mac enthusiast, but I do recognize that the 'hybrid' concept if well executed will be the new standard for portable power computing.

It is sad that Apple has not allowed full native control of a real back to our Macs with iOS.
The iPad could work as a remote client, connecting to out Macs at home, and there you have full power without lugging all the extra weight.

They could have all clould OS and Apps solutions, then running natively whatever it is needed, kind of an OS equivalent of what the Fusion drive does. Therefore you can have your things running when you are not connected to the web.

The chromebook concept is something also feasible in Apple's ecosystem, but will cripple sales of all the current toys.

I don't like the disposable nature of the current hot Apple lineup: nothing is upgradable, and they are very expensive.

Yes, we need an entry level and powerful MacBook.

I could be missing something here...but show me who's really using these hybrids or tablets for full productivity? don't get me wrong, i know there is a minority of super nerds that find means of being productive with these things by adapting to cumbersome methods. for example, using the ipad to take notes in class is just not right. You either add a keyboard...where you are a better off with a full word processor on a laptop. Or you use one of those note taking where when your stroke doesn't pick up you need some serious caffein in concentration to stay in par with the pace of the lecture.

the remote client solution has a potential...though it's at the mercy of investing in more than one machine and in solid connectivity at the base and on the run.

But if we leave the tablet/hybrid aside for a second and focus on full laptops. Honestly, the Air 13" profile is perfect for portability. why didn't Apple pursue it aggressively? why do we have an ancient line cMBP selling at the normal price point, and a current line rMBP selling at an overprice?

 

[rapidfire77]

Apple be always innovating and motivating! I think PROSumers expect the return of a 17" MacBook Pro, which will mark the finale of the classic MacBook Pro line and stream line a whole new line of notebooks, which they started with the retinas already in June of this year.

We have to continue to remember that the 13 and 15 inchers do so well because the CONSumers want portability, which is a beautiful marriage between just the right amount of power with portability. Sales only reflect that, they were sales, but the Pro of the PRO will always be the reputation of the 17" MacBook Pro which was set by Apple in the market of notebooks is concerned. They are up to something over there and I can taste it in my bones for June 2013!

Thank you.

There was very little demand on the 17". so like the lowest end cheap stuff, Apple gave up the 17" for it's Prosumers as you said. it does defeat the purpose of portability. I'd like to believe what you are saying but I find it hard to digest as well.

After owning and selling the Air 13" (need the view space of at least 15"). My MBP 15" is no longer a "portable" item. It's too heavy...so if portability isn't defined by size much more then by weight. I say a 17" in around 2kg or less...otherwise it's no bueno!

 

[bill-p]

But if we leave the tablet/hybrid aside for a second and focus on full laptops. Honestly, the Air 13" profile is perfect for portability. why didn't Apple pursue it aggressively? why do we have an ancient line cMBP selling at the normal price point, and a current line rMBP selling at an overprice?

For Retina MacBook:

The Retina Display is actually quite costly. The screen alone probably costs Apple 2x to 3x the cost of a regular low resolution screen. Regardless of what form factor they stick it on, it'll drive the price of that line up proportionately by $100 to $200. And that's not to mention the extra components (more powerful processor, bigger battery) required to adequately drive such a display.

While the 13" Retina MacBook Pro costs quite a lot, there is not much room for Apple to wiggle if they want to keep the same profit margin as before. Dropping profit margin = bad business. Investors will chew Apple's executive heads for breakfast. Some of us may not think so, but Apple is a business, and like all businesses, it cares about profits more than about its customers. Customers are only a factor of the huge sum that adds up to profit.

Also in that same light, the 15" Retina MacBook Pro isn't overpriced at all... by any metric.

And if you still can't concede with this point, then try to find another laptop on the market with the same screens as the 13" rMBP or the 15" rMBP that's priced lower. If you can't find any, then the Retina MacBooks can't be overpriced since there is nothing to compare the pricing to.

For the Unibody MacBooks (I don't like cMBP because "classic MacBook" should be the silver non-unibody MacBooks from 2008 and prior):

They are still very good laptops that sell well. There is no reason for Apple to cut them off now or in the future.

If you have to make comparisons to MacBook Air:

MacBook Pro unibody actually has a stronger, more rigid body that does not bend easily. I have owned a 13" MacBook Air and the thing bent very easily. In fact, sometimes I was afraid I'd twist and snap the computer in half just by holding it.

The MacBook Pro unibody still has a much better screen than the MacBook Air where color reproduction is concerned. For some reason, Apple opted to include a worse panel in the MacBook Air even though it has higher resolution. As a result, the MacBook Air's screen looks sharper with its higher resolution, but it has less accurate and generally more washed out colors compared to the MacBook Pro.

MacBook Pro unibody's glass layer protects the screen very well against dust, scratch, and other factors. The MacBook Air, on the other hand, has only a thin plastic film on top of its display that barely protects the screen at all. It is very easy to scratch and damage the MacBook Air's display.

MacBook Pro unibody has better Thunderbolt throughput compared to MacBook Air:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4542/eagle-ridge-the-cheaper-optionally-smaller-thunderbolt-controller

And etc...

There are many things the MacBook Pro unibody line does better than the MacBook Air, and vice versa. They are there to contrast and compare with one another, and I think that's precisely why Apple is keeping the unibody line around.

At the same time, the Retina MacBook line doesn't offer any of those trade-offs. Aside from storage capacity and legacy connectivity (optical drive, Firewire, Ethernet), the Retina MacBook line is simply better than the other two lines in every way.

So I think it makes for a good case: do you want the light-weight Air, or the more durable Pro? Or do you want the much better Retina?

 

[rapidfire77]

With those Windows laptops, do you get the stability of OS X, hundreds of local Apple Stores you can go to for hands on support, and gorgeous hardware free of hideous "Intel Inside" stickers?

Apple's machines are priced right compared to the competition. If you don't want to pay for them, enjoy your creaking plasticy Windows machines and 15 free months of McAfee Virus Scan...yuck.

Apple empty snobbishness aside. I had dells for a long time before jumping the bandwagon. Honestly, their service was swift and excellent. At the time I had just put $2400 on a fully loaded lattitude D820. Within 3 months, I sold it and got the MBP 15 aluminum for $1500 through the educational channel. My reasons for switching were as follows:

1-Brighter screen (side by side, the high end dell screen was maybe at 1/2 the brightness of the MBP)
2-Better design, thinner, lighter, and better battery
3-Windows Vista was out. felt like MS wasn't going to stop dressing up windows 95...and i wanted something simpler. Now i would run mac OS in my car if i could!
4- A better price! A BETTER PRICE PEOPLE FOR THE SAME OR BETTER PC. I purchased Applecare as well which came in very handy. (my system was replaced twice for graphic and mother board issues).

Between then and now, so much has changed.

1- Windows has tightened up, much more stable, more intuitive, and more user friendly. to be honest, it seems that the two copy from each other all the time. the bottom line, i still prefer Mac OS, but the gap isn't as wide as it used to be

2- Other than retina, there is nothing that the macbook offers that others don't. you can have thin, light, and nice design in a non mac.

3- Price? we can debate here all day. Truth is, whether we call it the same, slightly higher or absurdly higher...seems to fluctuate depending on the source. The reasonable will tell you it's high, the fanatic will justify it by a myriad of colors.

So say i give the market a look and i want to buy a replacement mac:

1- i see very portable yet limited power, screen (Air): slightly pricey but affordable.
2- a reasonable price for the guts but an outdated 5yr old heavy form factor (this is usually what your standard PC looks like)
3- I see portable, nice screen, and guts for a stretched out price.

This is what prompted me to start this thread. Whomever said that it's a transitional period was right. but Apple never used to have such a mess in their line up. What happened to simplicity? and what can we make out of the current situation?

 

[rapidfire77]

For Retina MacBook:


There are many things the MacBook Pro unibody line does better than the MacBook Air, and vice versa. They are there to contrast and compare with one another, and I think that's precisely why Apple is keeping the unibody line around.

At the same time, the Retina MacBook line doesn't offer any of those trade-offs. Aside from storage capacity and legacy connectivity (optical drive, Firewire, Ethernet), the Retina MacBook line is simply better than the other two lines in every way.

So I think it makes for a good case: do you want the light-weight Air, or the more durable Pro? Or do you want the much better Retina?

The cMBP line is kept to to cover the gap in price created by the retina line i think. All things equal, the retina model costs $300-400 more + the cost of the DVD-RW drive.

So essentially for $400 more you get a thinner laptop with a better screen. In a vacuum, this would be a no brainer and fully justifiable. We don't live in a vacuum however. the legacy line is old and has become no different than the thinkpad or lattitude corporate lines that change guts but don't change form for years. I have one and I like it. It does what it's supposed to do and does it well (robust). However, 5 yrs later...this is hardly innovation in the tech world. And if you hit the market for current high end (as mine was when i got it) the retina models along with particular lines from Dell, Samsung, and Sony, etc are it.

Give it a little thought though, for example when you do the side by side comparison. The retina might have the better screen vs. a series 9 (which has quite the bright HD screen itself) but it's also almost 1lb heavier...which is very significant for portability but itsn't translating into a higher price. (there is also a little more than that in difference between the legacy and retina MBP).

Again, I don't want to get into the pricing and mac vs. pc type of thing. All I want is your thoughts on the lines development and availability for the moment being (as you did) and for the near future.

And you are right, Apple is for profit. They are banking of consumer blind loyalty on this one. I understand that they spent time building the consumer trust...but it seems that they are milking a little too much at this point. are we staring downhill from this point on? it can't go on forever right?

 

[pgiguere1]

I don't think the cMBPs are still there to fill a price gap alone.

If you look at the past (2006-2008), Apple had no problem selling a $999 white MacBook and a $1999 15" MBP with nothing in between.

The difference is that at that time, the white MacBook was enough to fulfill requirements of a lot of consumers.

Now with the MBAs and rMBPs, a lot of people, including regular "non-power user" consumers, are turned off by the low capacity of SSDs compared to HDDs unless you spend much more to get decent storage (512 GB or more), which used to come as the baseline on HDD-based Macs.

I don't think Apple would have kept cMBPs if SSD was cheap enough to not downgrade in capacity when switching between HDD and SSD. That would have meant 512 GB of SSD in all baseline Mac notebooks, while maintaining current pricing.

I think cMBPs are currently there mostly for people who don't want to spend $2-3k on a laptop that has the kind of storage capacity you would have previously expected a $1k laptop to have.

 

[lobeyonekenobi]

I am an inbetweener, I'm not a fan-boy by any stretch but I believe Apple do still innovate, isn't the retina MBP an example of that?

I agree it is highly priced, I'm still trying to convince my wife to get one, and it has been stated there is no current computer to compare it to and if there was I bet it would be equally expensive.

The cMBP has been kept because there are some Pros that still want OD and Ethernet and don't care for the weight and just because it has been around for five or so years it still looks better than most PCs. the rMBP is innovation and the cMBP is old skool, why change that just because some people think it's old.

I'm saying this not through blind faith but some people can't be easily pleased, I also admit Windows 8 looks pretty good and was tempted to buy the Surface but maybe I'll wait until it matures.

 

[NewishMacGuy]

I don't think the cMBPs are still there to fill a price gap alone.

If you look at the past (2006-2008), Apple had no problem selling a $999 white MacBook and a $1999 15" MBP with nothing in between.

The difference is that at that time, the white MacBook was enough to fulfill requirements of a lot of consumers.

Now with the MBAs and rMBPs, a lot of people, including regular "non-power user" consumers, are turned off by the low capacity of SSDs compared to HDDs unless you spend much more to get decent storage (512 GB or more), which used to come as the baseline on HDD-based Macs.

I don't think Apple would have kept cMBPs if SSD was cheap enough to not downgrade in capacity when switching between HDD and SSD. That would have meant 512 GB of SSD in all baseline Mac notebooks, while maintaining current pricing.

I think cMBPs are currently there mostly for people who don't want to spend $2-3k on a laptop that has the kind of storage capacity you would have previously expected a $1k laptop to have.

Exactly.

 

[bill-p]

So essentially for $400 more you get a thinner laptop with a better screen. In a vacuum, this would be a no brainer and fully justifiable. We don't live in a vacuum however. the legacy line is old and has become no different than the thinkpad or lattitude corporate lines that change guts but don't change form for years. I have one and I like it. It does what it's supposed to do and does it well (robust). However, 5 yrs later...this is hardly innovation in the tech world. And if you hit the market for current high end (as mine was when i got it) the retina models along with particular lines from Dell, Samsung, and Sony, etc are it.

I think you are dead wrong here.

If you think a Thinkpad or Latitude has caught up to the MacBook Pro unibody, then feel free to "upgrade" to one of those devices and see for yourself. I have tried them on and off for the last few years, and those devices actually feel more like they haven't "innovated" for the last 10 years.

For instance, they still have vents to the back or to the side... or even on the bottom. Whenever I need to plug/unplug USB cables, charger, etc... I always have to feel hot air blown into my hand. Plus if I put any of those computers on a bed, which I do a lot as I don't sit at my desk at nights, then they'll eventually throttle their CPUs, which causes a significant performance degradation for a long while until temperature settles down. The unibody MacBook Pro with its vents being right where the screen hinge is allows me to operate and push it to any extreme even while it's on a bed without much if any performance degradation.

Also case in point, those devices have horrible trackpad. And I'm not a fan of the trackpoint/joystick. Using the trackpad on those devices is an exercise in futility... and I always have to plug in a mouse even for something as silly as browsing a website. Disregarding fancy multitouch gestures on the unibody MacBooks, the larger trackpad allows for more finger movement.

Give it a little thought though, for example when you do the side by side comparison. The retina might have the better screen vs. a series 9 (which has quite the bright HD screen itself) but it's also almost 1lb heavier...which is very significant for portability but itsn't translating into a higher price. (there is also a little more than that in difference between the legacy and retina MBP).

I think you're doing a skewered comparison here. The Retina screen isn't just resolution. It's an IPS panel... which means you don't get that "color grading" effect whenever you have the screen at an off angle to your eyes. And when resolution is taken into account, 1920 x 1080 at 13" is hardly comparable to 2560 x 1600 at 13". 2560 x 1600 is roughly twice the pixel count, which translates to twice the amount of details. Compare it to the 15" rMBP and it's even more skewered.

And here's another skewered comparison: the 15" rMBP has a quad-core CPU with dedicated GPU. The Series 9 isn't even coming half close of that level of performance. If you are talking about the 13" rMBP, then the 13" rMBP has a full 35W CPU that's faster than what the Series 9 has.

Also note trackpad comparison above.

Again, I don't want to get into the pricing and mac vs. pc type of thing. All I want is your thoughts on the lines development and availability for the moment being (as you did) and for the near future.

And you are right, Apple is for profit. They are banking of consumer blind loyalty on this one. I understand that they spent time building the consumer trust...but it seems that they are milking a little too much at this point. are we staring downhill from this point on? it can't go on forever right?

I don't see any blind loyalty here. Just people who can afford to pay for what they want.

I had this same discussion with Skaertus in another thread... but sincerely, I think it comes down to whether you can afford what you want, or not. It doesn't have anything to do with blind loyalty to Apple or anything else you are imagining.

Believe it or not, some of us have jobs that pay us well enough that we can afford these expensive "toys", which then allow us to be more productive at our work. Apple is clearly aiming their devices at that market. They are not aiming to please everyone with the pricing.

Personally, it took me a few pay checks to save up for my Retina, but it's not something I'm straining my budget in order to reach... and as such, I don't find it "overpriced". I can't "pay" for any other computer on the market like it.

 

[alphaod]

The strategy is simple:

1) Add Apple logo.
2) Announce with fanfare.
3) ????
4) PROFIT!!!