Dell Precision vs Mac Pro

[plinden]

You are technically right... it is not a Precision.. Mea Culpa

it is a Studio XPS... I got it on one of their sales a few weeks back, phoned in and got them to ditch the promotional audio system in exchange for upgrading the video card and hard drives.

No, I'm not "technically" right. I'm just right. You're comparing a consumer grade computer to a workstation.

Other than the NAME... I am not lying... it is a machine configured for home users, buying Dell Workstations has it's own tax, and all I need is mad processing power.

I am no expert on microarchitechture monikers, I thought i7 was Nehalem..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core_3

Regardless of the hair splitting...

The i7 is Nahalem, but the cheapest Dell Precision is not i7. Being precise is not hairsplitting. I got a MacBook Pro for $600 two years ago ... oh wait, it wasn't a MBP, it was a Mac Mini. But it's still a Mac.

See?

No, you weren't lying, but you were mistaken.

 

[Null]

How about this... : D

I guessed you missed the "Mea Culpa".
I was quoting off the top of my head.

I've checked my facts, I was also wrong about the price.
The subtotal was 1,045.00
The total was 1,180.85 with HST , Which I'll be able to write off @ 100 %.
So My actual cost was 1,045.00
You are right, I'll admit I was mistaken.
I'll do a rewrite, check my facts, and present my argument again.

You are right, the Precision is a "Workstation" but the performance of the cheap box I got blows away most worktations I ever used and rivals my present one.
----------------------------

I bought a Studio XPS 435MT, Intel Core i7-920 recently, it is according to cinebench, 85% the processing power of my 8 core mac pro 3 Ghz.
This unit has
- Intel Core i7-920 processor(8MB L2 Cache 2.66GHz)
- 6GB Tri-Channel DDR3 SDRAM
- HDMI & DVI out
- 1.28 TB Performance RAID 0 (2 x 640GB SATA 3Gb/s 7200 RPM HDDs)
- ATI RADEON HD4670 512MB
- a fully 64 bit OS
- Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio

I like it so much, I ordered another!

It cost me [in Canada without tax] $1045... shipping included.

If I order a similarly configured Mac Pro... [Quad 2.66 i7/6G ram/2 harddrives] it will cost me[in Canada without tax] $3,319.00.... shipping included.


That is 3.17 times the price as the Dell !! Insane. : (


I can certainly afford a proper computer, but as I run a small renderfarm for my Visual effects business, I need more than one computer. I have 6 computers on my network now [4 macs, 2 Dells], and will be buying more as I grow. Unless apple drops the Price of their pro equipment by a huge margin, I'd be stupid to buy Apple equipment.

I'm as big a mac fan as any of you, and I'd dare say I've owned more High end macs than any of you. But for all the dumping on the windows platform, it is a 64 bit OS!... can OSX claim that? Once you are using the software of your choice, does it really matter what Platform you use? I've worked on Irix, Linux, Windows, and Osx. It doesn't really matter, just use the software you like.

There clearly is a Mac tax, I've paid it, and though I love my Mac Octo, it will probably be the last pro mac I ever buy.

----------------------------

So, there are the facts, thanks for calling me on them.

 

[nuckinfutz]

The only way to compare accurately is to compare a Dell workstation with a Mac Pro.

Consumer computers are nice but few are designed to do 24/7 work. Worksations are built to hammer on and keep going.

You got to do what you have to though when your a small biz but I'm not going to fault Apple deciding they are going to cater to those who feel the stability of a workstation is more important than overall cost.

 

[cmaier]

You are right, the Precision is a "Workstation" but the performance of the cheap box I got blows away most worktations I ever used and rivals my present one.

And what happens to a person doing workstation tasks when a stray alpha particle flips a bit in your cheap box's memory?

 

[Null]

I have not encountered that problem. I cache particles particles and procedural animations. Particles that can't be cached are rendered on one machine anyway. The separate passes are composited in AE. I use the Farm for doing GI renderers for broadcast design work and compositing. I have had no flickering problems.

It's a cost performance thing... I'll always have a tweaked out workstation, but for a render node, all you need is cpu power.

I have a Dell on my Cintiq with an illuminated keyboard... it's a more than adequate rig, and the price is ridiculous.

:EDIT:

I just realized you are talking about some kinda subatomic particle sh*t... LOL

FYI... my "workstation" Mac crashes as much as any other computer I've used

back to the real world... what kind of "workstation tasks" are you speaking of?
In my world, Animation & Graphics, I just need a sick fast computer to do my work on... I could give a FF about alpha particles... LOL

 

[soldierblue]

"Workstation" is just a buzzword that gets thrown out there when people are talking about systems for "professional" usage. They're probably even coming out of the same 5 or 6 factories from the same 5 or 6 OEMs. These Mac Pros are mass produced, so are the Dells. The word "workstation" doesn't mean a whole lot.

 

[Null]

"Workstation" is just a buzzword that gets thrown out there when people are talking about systems for "professional" usage. They're probably even coming out of the same 5 or 6 factories from the same 5 or 6 OEMs. These Mac Pros are mass produced, so are the Dells. The word "workstation" doesn't mean a whole lot.

Agreed, the only people I know who "HAVE" to use a macpro are users of FCP and Apple Pro audio software. They don't need "workstations" just fast macs, as the software only runs on that platform.

There is no price/performance sweet spot for apple... I wish they made a cost effective Render node.... put an i7 in a mac mini, price it properly, and I'll buy a stack, but instead they have it crippled with a super lame chip.

The only way to get a lot of performance to the dollar on mac is to build a hackintosh. I'm going to try one eventually.

 

[nuckinfutz]

"Workstation" is just a buzzword that gets thrown out there when people are talking about systems for "professional" usage. They're probably even coming out of the same 5 or 6 factories from the same 5 or 6 OEMs. These Mac Pros are mass produced, so are the Dells. The word "workstation" doesn't mean a whole lot.

If that were true then why would Intel sell

http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/DX58SO/DX58SO-overview.htm

For Core i7 procs and this

http://www.intel.com/products/workstation/motherboards/s5520sc/s5520sc-overview.htm

for workstation?

I think people want to believe their computer system bought at Best Buy is as robust as a workstation they see rendering the latest Dreamworks or Pixar flick but they're just deluding themselves. Workstations handle workstation like loads. Your Best Buy computer will probably beat a Workstation in a benchmark but the prognosis for it's survival for a week long render is not looking good.

 

[Null]

If that were true then why would Intel sell

http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/DX58SO/DX58SO-overview.htm

For Core i7 procs and this

http://www.intel.com/products/workstation/motherboards/s5520sc/s5520sc-overview.htm

for workstation?

I think people want to believe their computer system bought at Best Buy is as robust as a workstation they see rendering the latest Dreamworks or Pixar flick but they're just deluding themselves. Workstations handle workstation like loads. Your Best Buy computer will probably beat a Workstation in a benchmark but the prognosis for it's survival for a week long render is not looking good.

Is this based on your personal experience?
My experience tells me otherwise, I actually do this kind of work.

 

[soldierblue]

Are you telling me that because Intel used the word "workstation", that it's NOT a marketing buzzword?

Okay. Tell me, at what point does a system become a "workstation" and at what point is it no longer a "workstation".

 

[nuckinfutz]

Is this based on your personal experience?
My experience tells me otherwise, I actually do this kind of work.

Based on years of selling servers that run 24x7 365. Workstation/Server motherboards may not be the fastest but they are certainly built to a different standard.

I think an artist such as yourself though can certainly benefit from non Workstation stuff as there is an a premium for that "workstation" designation.

Are you telling me that because Intel used the word "workstation", that it's NOT a marketing buzzword?

Okay. Tell me, at what point does a system become a "workstation" and at what point is it no longer a "workstation".

Typically it's the options and supporting chipsets that determine a workstation. Intel usually separates their desktop lineup from their Xeon stuff.

 

[cmaier]

Are you telling me that because Intel used the word "workstation", that it's NOT a marketing buzzword?

Okay. Tell me, at what point does a system become a "workstation" and at what point is it no longer a "workstation".

Workstations generally do have different optimizations than high-performance consumer or commercial desktops. Not sure the mac pro qualifies or not, but in general workstations will feature redundancy (ECC, RAID, etc.), higher bandwidth (multiple 10/100/1000 ethernet ports, fiber channel support, etc.), enterprise-class components (processors running under their maximum clock and with physical features to maximize lifetime, bigger heatsinks/better airflow solutions), sturdier construction (both mechanically and electrically - for example better quality [and more] bypass capacitors on the motherboard), etc.

over the years, there's been high-end desktop convergence, but certainly at AMD we paid careful attention to enterprise requirements when designing opteron circuits, and made completely different optimizations for the consumer market.

 

[Null]

Is this based on your personal experience?
My experience tells me otherwise, I actually do this kind of work.

If that were true then why would Intel sell

http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/DX58SO/DX58SO-overview.htm

For Core i7 procs and this

http://www.intel.com/products/workstation/motherboards/s5520sc/s5520sc-overview.htm

for workstation?

I think people want to believe their computer system bought at Best Buy is as robust as a workstation they see rendering the latest Dreamworks or Pixar flick but they're just deluding themselves. Workstations handle workstation like loads. Your Best Buy computer will probably beat a Workstation in a benchmark but the prognosis for it's survival for a week long render is not looking good.

The Renderfarms I've seen use stripped-down, low cost units for rendering. This is what I do.

Graphics workstations are typically used for content creation, have Video cards optimized to the app, and are made for speed, not cost.

You cannot [legally] get a cost effective rendernode on the Mac OS...
It's kinda ridiculous.

 

[cmaier]

The Renderfarms I've seen use stripped-down, low cost units for rendering. This is what I do.

Graphics workstations are typically used for content creation, have Video cards optimized to the app, and are made for speed, not cost.

You cannot [legally] get a cost effective rendernode on the Mac OS...
It's kinda ridiculous.

Compute farms are seldom workstation-classed machines. Typically they are cheap, identical, interchangeable boxes with the highest performance/power ratio that can be afforded. When one dies, you pull it out and replace it, and, hopefully, your job keeps on going.

 

[Null]

Compute farms are seldom workstation-classed machines. Typically they are cheap, identical, interchangeable boxes with the highest performance/power ratio that can be afforded. When one dies, you pull it out and replace it, and, hopefully, your job keeps on going.

in other words you agree with me...

I think the cost/performance is more important.

 

[cmaier]

in other words you agree with me...

I think the cost/performance is more important.

I don't know who I agree with.

All I'm saying is there is a difference between compute-farm machines (which increasingly are racks, for example - xserve is too expensive for that niche) and workstations. And there is a difference between workstations and gaming machines/high-end desktops.

And that these differences are both in terms of things that are easy to see on a spec sheet, and things that aren't so easy to see.

 

[nuckinfutz]

Renderfarm nodes are pretty much diametrically opposed to what Apple wants to do.

They blustered about Xgrid but never really gave it any teeth. The persuit of profits means that rather than give you a cheap backend rendering solution Apple, fearful of losing computer sales, underdelivers here.

 

[Foggy]

I'm actually with Null on this one. I currently use a Macbook Pro for my development work which is suffering from a graphics card problem that means its going to be have to sent off for repair. Its absence is forcing me to get the desktop machine I have been umming and ahhing about for a while. I desperately wish I had bought the old octo core pre-nahalem upgrade.

I dont need to processing power of the new octo core, but I do want a minimum of a quad core machine with a minimum of 6gb of ram. If I go for the new mac pro I need to spend over £2k to get this. I have no other options with the macs as thats the only quad core out there.

I have specced up a quad core linux box and I can chuck in a 23" monitor (to give me 3 screens total) and still be under £1k. I love macs as much as anyone and can't imagine going back to Linux after the last couple of years of OSX but I have to be able to justify the difference in cost in the machines and I just cant.

I am really trying to decide if I can make do with a core 2 duo and 4gb RAM and get an iMac, but spending £1200 on a machine and putting up with crappy specs just for OSX seems a bit of a silly thing to do.

 

[Plutonius]

It cost me [in Canada without tax] $1045... shipping included.

If I order a similarly configured Mac Pro... [Quad 2.66 i7/6G ram/2 harddrives] it will cost me[in Canada without tax] $3,319.00.... shipping included.

There clearly is a Mac tax, I've paid it, and though I love my Mac Octo, it will probably be the last pro mac I ever buy.

Heh Heh. So you are claiming that Apple is pocketing $2274.00 on a $1045.00 computer (217% margin) ?

Apple is most likely getting a 30% margin which is about 1k on the $3319.00 computer. This would put the cost of the Mac Pro at $2319.00 . That cost is parts, manufacturing, and overhead.

 

[Umbongo]

Heh Heh. So you are claiming that Apple is pocketing $2274.00 on a $1045.00 computer (217% margin) ?

Apple is most likely getting a 30% margin which is about 1k on the $3319.00 computer. This would put the cost of the Mac Pro at $2319.00 . That cost is parts, manufacturing, and overhead.

You have the first sum backwards, it would be a 68% margin. Which probably isn't too far off. The quad has a big price increase over what everyone else charges for the hardware to fit it between the iMac and the Octo Mac Pro.

 

[Tesselator]

yes but if you didnt have the hardwareical (made that word up) know-how, would you be buying one??

A hackintosh? I dunno that I have the hardwareical. I have to study the threads at places like this to figure it out. So I guess the answer to your question is Yes.

Link to some of your works... mr. professional that can't afford a proper computer?

Can't afford a proper computer? I'm surrounded by 10 very beefy workstations as I type this (Mac Pro, 6 Dell Precisions, and 3 DIY-ers). In my storage room are another 20 or so from 6 to 8 years ago. And this isn't mentioning the all the one's I've sold off when their time came (10 and 20 at a time).

 

[Tesselator]

The Renderfarms I've seen use stripped-down, low cost units for rendering. This is what I do.

That depends I guess on the company. If you look at any company that produces CG for film or television shows then this is blatantly untrue. Unless you consider dual and quad (usually workstation grade) machines STUFFED full of RAM to be stripped down. They're often headless with a single hard drive tho so maybe that's what you mean?

 

[cmaier]

That depends I guess on the company. If you look at any company that produces CG for film or television shows then this is blatantly untrue. Unless you consider dual and quad (usually workstation grade) machines STUFFED full of RAM to be stripped down. They're often headless with a single hard drive tho so maybe that's what you mean?

Last I spoke to dudes at Pixar, they were using Dell rack systems.

While I was at AMD, we sold a bunch of opterons for use in HP systems for dreamworks.

The big guys do seem to use name-brand stuff.

Not a renderfarm, but at AMD we had a "farm" for use in creating and simulating our chips - a gargantuan one, in fact (bigger than either of the two I just mentioned, I'm sure). All no-name cheapo boxes.

So whatever.

 

[Tesselator]

Last I spoke to dudes at Pixar, they were using Dell rack systems.

While I was at AMD, we sold a bunch of opterons for use in HP systems for dreamworks.

The big guys do seem to use name-brand stuff.

Not a renderfarm, but at AMD we had a "farm" for use in creating and simulating our chips - a gargantuan one, in fact (bigger than either of the two I just mentioned, I'm sure). All no-name cheapo boxes.

So whatever.

Yeah, Pixar has several but the monster is all blades...
I was talking more like D2, Pinewood, and houses like that - usually 40 to 100 units maxed out memory, fast CPUs, and blazing network interfaces.

What you guys had sounds like a Beowulf, no?



EDIT:
I found this still hanging out on my harddrive:

This is StationX (a sub-group of D2) which rendered a lot of shots for SC's Titanic:

Those are all 533MHz DEC Alpha machines which dual boot Linux and Windows. Those were like awesome machines at the time! And maxed out ram with I think 1000BaseT (which was screaming at the time - 100BaseT was new to most of us - at least I think that's right... It's been awhile!)

Linux was running some custom code that simulated ocean, ship wakes, and some clouds if I remember right. Windows was running Lightwave 3D for decks, hull, and interiors - like that famous stair case shot and etc.

 

[bruinsrme]

"Workstation" is just a buzzword that gets thrown out there when people are talking about systems for "professional" usage. They're probably even coming out of the same 5 or 6 factories from the same 5 or 6 OEMs. These Mac Pros are mass produced, so are the Dells. The word "workstation" doesn't mean a whole lot.

Perhaps they have a little more significance in the PC machines and not so much apple.
The terms desktop, workstation, and server all have very IMPORTANT meanings to the chip, cache, code, chipset and motherboards it aligns to.
since apple only has the one desktop the relevance is not well relevant.

In the PC it matters based on the particular architecture and chipset. Being used. Again apple has 1 chipset for the MP so various levels of scalability don’t come into play