Design flaw on the Late 2008 MacBook Pro

[brentsg]

Why wouldn't they still be able to do it? This is honestly really overblown. If you're running stress tests with the lid closed, it gets hot? Wow that's strange. You can still use the computer without any problems while in clamshell mode. People game with it like that on an external monitor and run pro apps from it. Running a stress test on a computer of course will make it hotter, since it's pushing it to 100% and yes heat does escape through the keyboard. The vents don't need to be huge in the back because there really isn't that much heat this thing gives off. The fans don't really kick on because they don't need to. Just my opinion, but I think people come on here trying to create problems that don't exist because of some strange tests. It's a computer, it gets hot especially when pushing it to the max (running stress tests).

I don't know about some of you, but I didn't get this computer to run looping stress tests all night long to say that it's hot while restricting the heat even more with the lid closed. It's a notebook, the heat has to go somewhere. Why don't you try running actual applications while it's closed and if you're somehow restricted then tell us the programs you used and the temperatures that were reached. Wouldn't that be more useful than this thread? Also you can use SMC Fan Control to set your minimum fan speeds.

Don't argue with me. I'm just disagreeing with his statement that only a few laptop users operate with the unit closed.

I use my 2.53 Late 2008 unit closed, with an external monitor almost exclusively.

 

[TESEV]

I suppose I should have been more specific about the exact problems I was having that led up to the hardware test. I'm getting sick of people assuming that I do this kind of stuff for fun and to spread conspiracy theories.

Please give more information about your problems and I'll try to help if possible.

Late 2008 Unibody 2.8Ghz, 4GB RAM, 320GB @7200rpm.
Crashes mostly happen in Windows XP, especially playing Fallout 3, especially in the first minute of playing. I haven't installed much else because of the issue (don't want to put a lot of time into a system I may soon replace). Don't have any high-end games to test on the mac side yet. Also, sometimes when I wake it from sleep (mostly XP but once on the mac side) the graphics get glitchy, like the screen will go to thousands of colors suddenly and lines pop up and THEN it goes black (always before I can get my camera out).

This is pretty much identical to other people's problems when it comes to the B(lack)SOD.

I don't know about some of you, but I didn't get this computer to run looping stress tests all night long to say that it's hot while restricting the heat even more with the lid closed.

::sigh:: I ran the tests because I have been getting the aforementioned anomalies. I like to think I'm not one of them.

If your machine is acting up or the fans are getting really loud for no apparent reason, call up apple or take it into the store.

In progress... but I want to chronicle this since so many others are having similar issues, particularly how fast it can overheat.

The thread is a theory of mine that the heat vent is being blocked by the LCD panel's hinge. It seems to explain how my games crash so fast.

 

[TESEV]

BSOD in windows or OSX? I haven't seen a blue screen in OSX so I assume you're talking about windows. Have you changed out the default nvidia drivers for www.laptopvideo2go.com drivers?

At least one B(lack)SOD in OSX, countless in XP. It won't let me update the drivers (and i'm not gonna do those beta drivers).

Very loud fan noise only happens for me when I'm playing games like crysis, half life 2, far cry 2 or games like that. That's what is supposed to happen though to get the heat out.

No argument here. What IS happening though is sometimes in the first minute of starting a game i get the B(lack)SOD, even if the fans are running. Many people say the fans don't spin up fast enough, but I've had it where the fans were already very loud and it still crashes, hence my theory.

Which OS are you using, what are your temps, what programs are you running (other than benchmarking/stress tests)? What are your default fan speeds? What video card are you using (if in OSX)?

XP. Don't have any high end games for OSX yet. As for benchmarking tools, I only have those for OSX. I'm looking for some for XP that can monitor the fan, cpu, and temps in more than one area (and preferably in one package instead of 9).

 

[Ampidire]

If that black screen happens in both OS X and WinXP it's likely the 9600GT GPU is faulty, which has been an issue for a few members here.

Get it replaced.

 

[cg165]

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Why wouldn't they still be able to do it? This is honestly really overblown. If you're running stress tests with the lid closed, it gets hot? Wow that's strange. You can still use the computer without any problems while in clamshell mode. People game with it like that on an external monitor and run pro apps from it. Running a stress test on a computer of course will make it hotter, since it's pushing it to 100% and yes heat does escape through the keyboard. The vents don't need to be huge in the back because there really isn't that much heat this thing gives off. The fans don't really kick on because they don't need to. Just my opinion, but I think people come on here trying to create problems that don't exist because of some strange tests. It's a computer, it gets hot especially when pushing it to the max (running stress tests).

I don't know about some of you, but I didn't get this computer to run looping stress tests all night long to say that it's hot while restricting the heat even more with the lid closed. It's a notebook, the heat has to go somewhere. Why don't you try running actual applications while it's closed and if you're somehow restricted then tell us the programs you used and the temperatures that were reached. Wouldn't that be more useful than this thread? Also you can use SMC Fan Control to set your minimum fan speeds.

Don't argue with me. I'm just disagreeing with his statement that only a few laptop users operate with the unit closed.

I use my 2.53 Late 2008 unit closed, with an external monitor almost exclusively.

I should have been more clear on who I was talking to. I asked the question to you then responded to the general posts so I wasn't really arguing with you.

 

[cg165]

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I suppose I should have been more specific about the exact problems I was having that led up to the hardware test. I'm getting sick of people assuming that I do this kind of stuff for fun and to spread conspiracy theories.

Please give more information about your problems and I'll try to help if possible.

Late 2008 Unibody 2.8Ghz, 4GB RAM, 320GB @7200rpm.
Crashes mostly happen in Windows XP, especially playing Fallout 3, especially in the first minute of playing. I haven't installed much else because of the issue (don't want to put a lot of time into a system I may soon replace). Don't have any high-end games to test on the mac side yet. Also, sometimes when I wake it from sleep (mostly XP but once on the mac side) the graphics get glitchy, like the screen will go to thousands of colors suddenly and lines pop up and THEN it goes black (always before I can get my camera out).

This is pretty much identical to other people's problems when it comes to the B(lack)SOD.

I don't know about some of you, but I didn't get this computer to run looping stress tests all night long to say that it's hot while restricting the heat even more with the lid closed.

::sigh:: I ran the tests because I have been getting the aforementioned anomalies. I like to think I'm not one of them.

If your machine is acting up or the fans are getting really loud for no apparent reason, call up apple or take it into the store.

In progress... but I want to chronicle this since so many others are having similar issues, particularly how fast it can overheat.

The thread is a theory of mine that the heat vent is being blocked by the LCD panel's hinge. It seems to explain how my games crash so fast.

Ahh, well you didn't mention this in the thread at all yet. I've already got a post and fix on this. The thread is something like "MBP gaming issues" but I've listed it here too.

Laptopvideo2go drivers do work but you need to get the modified inf file to replace the original before you install or it won't work. I had crashes, where I had to hold the power button down to shut the machine off until then. You don't have to use beta drivers, use the certified ones. The apple nvidia bootcamp drivers are to blame. Also the fans (I believe) don't kick in fast enough so I have smc fan control in OSX set to 4,000 rpm before I restart. Do that, get those drivers and you shouldn't have that problem.

I realize we shouldn't have to do this at all and totally agree. I'm just glad it isn't doing it anymore or I wouldn't have been able to play through half life 2 ep 1 and play far cry 2 without problems.

 

[alphaod]

I've done some testing and I found that if I run it in clamshell, it overheats and locks up. I think this issue also arises from the fact that OS X does not spin up the fan until it gets to 90 degrees Centigrade, and when its already hot, it's even harder to dissipate additional heat from the ventilation space in the design.

For those of you arguing that we're looking for issues--without us, we'd still be in the Stone Age.

Also all computer manufacturer dissuade users from blocking the air vents and said vents are designed as such. Apple in this instance has designed the computer to block the vents for us.

I think the only way to fix it is to cut the slots on the bottom like the MacBook Air.

 

[TESEV]

Laptopvideo2go drivers do work but you need to get the modified inf file to replace the original before you install or it won't work. I had crashes, where I had to hold the power button down to shut the machine off until then. You don't have to use beta drivers, use the certified ones. The apple nvidia bootcamp drivers are to blame. Also the fans (I believe) don't kick in fast enough so I have smc fan control in OSX set to 4,000 rpm before I restart. Do that, get those drivers and you shouldn't have that problem.

Tell me more about this modded inf file. Where can I get it and what do I do with it?

 

[alphaod]

Tell me more about this modded inf file. Where can I get it and what do I do with it?

When you download the driver, you also download the modded inf file. After you unzip the drivers, you move the modded inf into the unzipped folder and replace the original already in it. Then run the installer and install the drivers.

 

[MH01]

Dude...you have 2 threads already ranting about something that is NOT a problem. Don't bring it into this one. It's a different problem.

Heat is an issue, I have one that gets Black screens of death after gaming

 

[MH01]

And to be really honest, the new MBP is a very nice machine and looks great, though I would not recommend gaming on it. The vents are just not big enough to get rid of the heat. Even if drivers improve the situation, it gets very hot.

My First MBP was a 2.8, 3200 model. It would crash all the time. I have since replaced with a 2.53, 5400, it takes longer between crashes, but when i play games the keyboard gets very hot, and while the MBP does a good job at removing the heat, its only a matter of time before it crashes.

Over all i think the new slick unibody design is the problem, as is design over function and by hiding those vents you are limiting the airflow.

The MBP is great at all tasks but gaming. Ive had it crash in both in OS X and Vista (the vista drivers are aweful and the the MBP always runs hot).

And even if you are not experiencing crashes right now, i believe its only a matter of time before components will start to fail due to excess heat.

At the end of the day, it looks like Nvidia have scr£wed apple again with the 9600 GT. I think the enquirer did and acrticle on this issue.

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/11/29/nvidia-heat-causing-macbooks

Might be a while before we know the extend of the issues.

 

[cg165]

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I've done some testing and I found that if I run it in clamshell, it overheats and locks up. I think this issue also arises from the fact that OS X does not spin up the fan until it gets to 90 degrees Centigrade, and when its already hot, it's even harder to dissipate additional heat from the ventilation space in the design.

For those of you arguing that we're looking for issues--without us, we'd still be in the Stone Age.

Also all computer manufacturer dissuade users from blocking the air vents and said vents are designed as such. Apple in this instance has designed the computer to block the vents for us.

I think the only way to fix it is to cut the slots on the bottom like the MacBook Air.

There's nothing wrong with looking for problems. I didn't mean that in a general way. I'm talking about problems that aren't actually problems that people make into problems.

I haven't used my mbp in clamshell mode much but I can imagine it gets pretty hot. I also agree about the fans, they just don't kick on soon enough when the machine gets hot which is why I use smc fan control set to 4,000 rpm before I do something intensive. Try it out if you haven't already. It's much easier to keep the heat down before it gets hot than after. Hopefully you aren't using that and it works for you.

 

[cg165]

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Laptopvideo2go drivers do work but you need to get the modified inf file to replace the original before you install or it won't work. I had crashes, where I had to hold the power button down to shut the machine off until then. You don't have to use beta drivers, use the certified ones. The apple nvidia bootcamp drivers are to blame. Also the fans (I believe) don't kick in fast enough so I have smc fan control in OSX set to 4,000 rpm before I restart. Do that, get those drivers and you shouldn't have that problem.

Tell me more about this modded inf file. Where can I get it and what do I do with it?

It's my understanding that all nvidia cards use the same drivers. The problem is that nvidia makes the desktop version only. On
Laptopvideo2go they create a modified inf file which tells it to work with the mobile version of the card. Without it you will get an error and can't install them.

The mod inf file is located in the same screen that you get the drivers from. Where you click drivers, to the right of that it says something like modified inf so download that too.

Post your results, using smc fan and the latest 180.60 (or .70 drivers whichever they are) I haven't had any problems.

 

[cg165]

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And to be really honest, the new MBP is a very nice machine and looks great, though I would not recommend gaming on it. The vents are just not big enough to get rid of the heat. Even if drivers improve the situation, it gets very hot.

My First MBP was a 2.8, 3200 model. It would crash all the time. I have since replaced with a 2.53, 5400, it takes longer between crashes, but when i play games the keyboard gets very hot, and while the MBP does a good job at removing the heat, its only a matter of time before it crashes.

Over all i think the new slick unibody design is the problem, as is design over function and by hiding those vents you are limiting the airflow.

The MBP is great at all tasks but gaming. Ive had it crash in both in OS X and Vista (the vista drivers are aweful and the the MBP always runs hot).

And even if you are not experiencing crashes right now, i believe its only a matter of time before components will start to fail due to excess heat.

At the end of the day, it looks like Nvidia have scr£wed apple again with the 9600 GT. I think the enquirer did and acrticle on this issue.

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/11/29/nvidia-heat-causing-macbooks

Might be a while before we know the extend of the issues.

I agree. There could be a
Problem with these cards too but who knows. I also am not sure if it was the drivers that fixed things for me or upping my default fan speeds before doing something intensive. I would recommend doing both and if it doesn't work, you can easily go back to the old drivers from your cd and put the fans back to 2000

 

[TESEV]

Post your results, using smc fan and the latest 180.60 (or .70 drivers whichever they are) I haven't had any problems.

I installed the new drivers and so far they seem to be preventing the glitching after waking from sleep.

I found a satisfactoryish temp monitor called GPU-Z. It only monitors the GPU temp and other GPU details but doesn't monitor fan speed or much else but since I had more control over that anyway I figured it wouldn't matter as much. Before I increased the fan speed, the temp was getting up to 99°C!! In this case I got the B(lack)SOD and the readings stopped very shortly afterwards. Would someone remind me of the danger level where hardware damage could occur?
After increasing the fan speed, it topped off at 83°C. I'll keep testing and let ya'll know if anything else comes up.

 

[shoulin333]

When playing games on my external 24" screen i have to leave my unibody MBP open, which works fine... if i try to game in clam shellmode it overheats and freezes (this is in bootcamp running vista 32bit)

The problem may be the thermal paste which i plan to replace with some AS5, but i realized that the processor faces the keyboard, so it isnt as simple as taking the bottom cover off..... i guess i will do it one day when i have a lot of time and patiences..

to sum it up, the vent is deff restricted more when in clamshell mode, not to mention the heat can't rise through the keyboard because it gets stuck on the glass with a nice tight rubber seal all the way around the edge

 

[DoFoT9]

LOLISM!!!!

OP no wonder why its getting so darn hot, you are running it under windoze. since the first intel mac laptops (which i have) XP/Vista has ALWAYS run hotter. i dont know why, i dont know how. it just does. i have no fix, other then not to run it in clamshell mode, why dont you just use the extra screen space?? you paid for the whole laptop, if your not going to use them you should have gotten a desktop.

 

[pdxflint]

Aside from the real issues here with the heat, it just seems to me that running a laptop in clamshell mode most of the time wastes the benefits of a laptop, while sacrificing the benefits of a dedicated desktop workstation. It costs (maybe) more, essentially wastes a perfectly good display/keyboard, and doesn't perform as well. Can't quite figure that one... Especially running games in Windows. Mac Pro might make more sense...

 

[DoFoT9]

Aside from the real issues here with the heat, it just seems to me that running a laptop in clamshell mode most of the time wastes the benefits of a laptop, while sacrificing the benefits of a dedicated desktop workstation. It costs (maybe) more, essentially wastes a perfectly good display/keyboard, and doesn't perform as well. Can't quite figure that one... Especially running games in Windows. Mac Pro might make more sense...

yes i couldnt agree more!! what is the use of buying a laptop and only keeping it at the work desk/home desk when you could have more power, less heat for less cost?!?!

for this situation a portable HD would be a good idea instead of a portable laptop

 

[MH01]

yes i couldnt agree more!! what is the use of buying a laptop and only keeping it at the work desk/home desk when you could have more power, less heat for less cost?!?!

for this situation a portable HD would be a good idea instead of a portable laptop

Using your rationale the OP should get a PC then

In my situation, my work takes me between UK, OZ and US on a regular basis. As much as i would love to carry a Mac pro in my backpack....i use the MBP as a desktop replacement for OS X and Windows.

The issue here is that the MBP have heat issues, and these seem to be related to the new GPUs.

In relation to clamshell mode - Its a feature, therefore it should run in that mode. If Apple did not intend it to run in clamshell they should disable it. Do not blame someone for running hardware that is suppose to work.

In relation to it running hotter in windows, Well apple have to address this with bootcamp drivers. From my experience, Bootcamp driver development has been very lacking.

The OP has not done anything our of the ordinary. Running benchmarking apps should not crash a computer. Yes they do push the CPU and GPU to give you an indicator of its performance. I've ran Cinebench on my 2.8 when i had it and managed to get the CPU to 105 degrees Celsius. And it was not till after 100 degrees that the fans finally kicked in....though too late at that stage.

I am sure that future firmware updates will improve these issues, but at the end of the day the new design is not made to move large amounts of heat. For most people this is not an issue. Frankly right now it just means that the MBP is cannot really be used for gaming. All other applications should be fine.

 

[cg165]

I installed the new drivers and so far they seem to be preventing the glitching after waking from sleep.

I found a satisfactoryish temp monitor called GPU-Z. It only monitors the GPU temp and other GPU details but doesn't monitor fan speed or much else but since I had more control over that anyway I figured it wouldn't matter as much. Before I increased the fan speed, the temp was getting up to 99°C!! In this case I got the B(lack)SOD and the readings stopped very shortly afterwards. Would someone remind me of the danger level where hardware damage could occur?
After increasing the fan speed, it topped off at 83°C. I'll keep testing and let ya'll know if anything else comes up.

Well that definitely sounds better. Don't forget in Windows you're using the 9600m too which is hotter. Test it some more and see if you're still having those problems.

 

[DoFoT9]

Using your rationale the OP should get a PC then

bahaha maybe, but he could always use it as a hackintosh, ive done it. very easy to do

In my situation, my work takes me between UK, OZ and US on a regular basis. As much as i would love to carry a Mac pro in my backpack....i use the MBP as a desktop replacement for OS X and Windows.

The issue here is that the MBP have heat issues, and these seem to be related to the new GPUs.

well that is fair enough then. if you are moving around the place all the time and arent in an office all day long then thats why laptops were invented!! if it was just sitting on a desk then its wasted money.

In relation to clamshell mode - Its a feature, therefore it should run in that mode. If Apple did not intend it to run in clamshell they should disable it. Do not blame someone for running hardware that is suppose to work.

yes i guess your right, it works so its a feature. i suppose that is the problem with having such a small and thin laptop, heat doesnt disperse very well. however i would have thought that with the newer full body cases that the heat would have dispersed a tiny bit better.

dont get me wrong im not blaming anybody, i was just saying that if he doesnt have to have it in clamshell then he shouldnt..the solution seems simple enough to me.

In relation to it running hotter in windows, Well apple have to address this with bootcamp drivers. From my experience, Bootcamp driver development has been very lacking.

yes very very lacking, they probably feel that the development is stable enough for 99% of users (which it is). from what i have been taught, the heat isnt controlled by the OS, its controlled by on-board controllers.. so drivers dont really count here.

The OP has not done anything our of the ordinary. Running benchmarking apps should not crash a computer. Yes they do push the CPU and GPU to give you an indicator of its performance. I've ran Cinebench on my 2.8 when i had it and managed to get the CPU to 105 degrees Celsius. And it was not till after 100 degrees that the fans finally kicked in....though too late at that stage.

nope benchmarks shouldnt crash the computer at all, the fact that some of them are in windows doesnt really impress me, i am well aware of the heat issues with bootcamp etc.

for some reasons the fan speed takes a fair while to kick in, if you use 3rd party fan controllers then it helps keep the initial temperatures down A LOT. 120°C is my highest eheh. it didnt freeze at all though.

I am sure that future firmware updates will improve these issues, but at the end of the day the new design is not made to move large amounts of heat. For most people this is not an issue. Frankly right now it just means that the MBP is cannot really be used for gaming. All other applications should be fine.

that is quite disappointing, hearing that it cannot be used for gaming.. it has an extremely decent GPU and to hear that it is overheating is sad.

 

[MH01]

Just wanted to stress to people reading this.

If you are thinking of getting a MBP or have one, for 95% of your tasks the computer is fine.

This mainly effects gamers, as games push both the CPU and GPU. (have not done video encoding). And some games are worse then others.

If you like gaming and are considering the MBP, do your research.

 

[Nickb]

yeah for gaming its not the best

i play call of duty 4 with the lid shut and the fans go pretty mad, about 6400rpm at times - but open the lid when i stop the game and it soon cools off

but yeah leaving the lid closed when using a screen which i do, i have the new 24" LED display, it does get hot, but not too bad unless you are gaming or any other activity that nails the CPU and GPU

 

[cg165]

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yeah for gaming its not the best

i play call of duty 4 with the lid shut and the fans go pretty mad, about 6400rpm at times - but open the lid when i stop the game and it soon cools off

but yeah leaving the lid closed when using a screen which i do, i have the new 24" LED display, it does get hot, but not too bad unless you are gaming or any other activity that nails the CPU and GPU

I'm surprised it's playable on that big of a monitor. Do you get better results with it shut or can you have both screens going with it open to let some of the heat out?

Oh and how is that monitor? Looks pretty amazing although more than I'd like to spend.