The "last compatible version of the app" option that got announced today will be useful to many too.
Gary
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Developers Now Permitted to Submit 64-Bit Apps for iPhone 5s
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The "last compatible version of the app" option that got announced today will be useful to many too.
Gary
That sounds great, but I'd like some real world examples. Which apps, what functions will those apps fulfill, etc? The technological reasons why 64 bit is better than 32 bit I am not arguing against, I'm just seriously asking specifically how this will make using my smartphone better than it is today. I can't think of a single app these days which slows down my iphone 5, I can't think of a time where I ever had an issue with multi tasking or having too many programs open. About the worst I can think of is safari closing with too many tabs, but that was with my ipad2 and I would assume more memory is the issue, or rather proper use of memory as my 2gb ram on my windows tablet handles 20+ tabs and counting.
I'm genuinely curious. My first impression is that 64 bit won't make a difference at all, at least this generation cycle. But I don't know, I'm not a developer or engineer and that's why I ask which app or function will the 5s perform/run which the 5 could not?
WTF are you talking about?
Code:
iMac:bin handleym$ file /Applications/iTunes.app/Contents/MacOS/iTunes
/Applications/iTunes.app/Contents/MacOS/iTunes: Mach-O universal binary with 2 architectures
/Applications/iTunes.app/Contents/MacOS/iTunes (for architecture i386):
Mach-O executable i386
/Applications/iTunes.app/Contents/MacOS/iTunes (for architecture x86_64):
Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64
From Apple: “An app that supports 64-bit processing almost always gains improved performance when compared with a 32-bit app running on the same device."
The tradeoff being increased memory usage.
Yeah I understand that, but functionally which apps which are 32 bit today run perceivably slower that will run perceivably faster with 64 bit? I'm not talking tech specs, I'm talking specifically about the user experience. If the user can't readily realize a performance benefit I'm not so sure what good tech specs are.
Well, not all. Itanium and Alpha didn't provide any backwards compatibility to any 32-bit version in its instruction set. Speaking of older 64-bit architectures; MIPS ('91), Alpha ('92), SPARC ('95) and PowerPC ('95) was 64-bit loooong before machines had 4GB RAM and that wasn't just forward thinking to the days when 4 GB would be affordable.
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I think that image processing like composition and layering of transparencies, and applying filters and transformations to everything thats visual in iOS7 will benefit. iPhone 5s is doing some seriously astounding stuff when it comes to the camera. Everything isn't done in the GPU, the processes dispatching stuff to it will gain from being 64-bit.
And, as I said. ALL apps will gain from the OS being 64-bit when it comes to juggling virtual memory.
I agree that it might not be much tangible advantages compared to a already very fast device, but that's what I said when I bought a dual CPU PowerMac G4 in the early 2000s too. What would I possibly make with all that power?!
I'm honestly rooting for Apple, but it just seems that 64bit this generation cycle is for bragging rights and not much else.
One thing which would be pretty cool is if Apple was thinking about somewhere down the line replacing a computer with an iphone. Wireless video seamlessly connecting your iphone to your Apple TV as soon as you get home with the iphone as the "computer". I mean it seems like someday we are headed that way, with these smartphones having the power of full computers more and more every year.
You said your impression was that it won't make a difference. I posted something from Apple claiming it "almost always" will improve performance.As far as asking about specific apps that you will be able to perceive an increase... that's just a crazily open-ended question.
This might be Apple hyping the margins a little too much. This might be officially true, but the gains in most apps would be pretty slim across the board.
For an app to really take advantage of 64-bit, it has to be written specifically for it. Most developers, at least starting out, will probably do nothing more than hit the compile for 64-bit button, which will end up giving everyone the exact same performance they got in 32-bit, but with extra memory overhead. For the developers who do take the time to tailor their code, the performance improvements all depend on what type of app it is.
Camera apps and video/photo editors will see a pretty big increase. Like Instagram might be able to apply those photo effects to larger images a little bit faster than it's 32-bit counterpart. Same with iMovie and the like.
Games? It'd be able to juggle between multiple threads a little more gracefully. You won't see a huge framerate increase, but you're also less likely to see any lag or framerate hits in certain situations.
Weather apps, twitter, and the like? Naw...
The OS itself? You would see an improvement here, but considering the way iOS is designed, 64-bit isn't a huge advantage for even it at the moment. I'm sure it'll give you a boost in some areas, but not in the same way it would on OSX or Windows. Desktop OSes are about true multitasking. Jumping between multiple applications running simultaneously, all wanting CPU time. The OS needs to crunch a lot of numbers and do a lot of thinking to balance that load, and that's where 64-bit shines. iOS is about mitigating and marginalizing. Due to the way it's set up, it won't immediately benefit from the added bittage.
Overall, 64-bit isn't a bad thing to have. Apple just decided to say "screw it, let's make the jump and get it out of the way", and you know...they're right. It had to happen, might as well do it now when you don't desperately need it rather than later when you do.
...but no one's gonna notice any difference between a 32-bit iOS app and a 64-bit one. Not right now.
Based on...?
But even if that's true, say a 5% improvement across the board, that could be 30 minutes in battery life. But made up numbers don't really help the conversation.
That's not true. Most developers will notice performance improvements simply by recompiling for 64-bit through the new instruction set and 64-bit optimized frameworks.
Based on how these things usually go on the desktop. Admittedly it's not a 100% perfect match, but it's close enough to build an argument around.
This is a good point. More efficient use of the CPU could lead to some slight battery life improvements.
...but it could also be a moot point because 64-bit applications do tend to use more memory. If Apple throws 2GB of ram into the 5S and iPad 5, the extra bit of battery life you're saving in one area would be lost to power another.
Right, but there are only so much gain to be made. Some apps will see a performance boost, yes. But most won't, because most don't need it.
The simplest way to put it is that the apps that'll see a boost from 64-bit needed 64-bit to run to its full potential in the first place. Yeah, that probably sounds a lot like a zen koan, but it's true. Twitter doesn't feel slow now on 32-bit. It's not starved for processing power in the least. 64-bit wouldn't do it a bit of good. But if 3DSMax were on iOS, it'd be eating up all the processing power you could throw at it.
The RAM is going to need to be powered regardless of whether an app is 32-bit or 64-bit.
Well, except that Apple said that apps will "almost always" see a performance gain by moving to 64-bit.
Obviously, some apps will see more of a performance boost than others. That doesn't mean that the smaller performance boost doesn't exist. And, as we agreed, even a small performance boost could have a significant cumulative effect.
It's YOU who have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Don't misconcept a developer forum with a product release announcement. Everything being discussed here in the IDF won't be seen by the end user until next year this time.
Depends on how Apple sets it all up. More ram in usage does equal to more power being consumed.
...though don't ask me how much exactly, cuz I have no idea.
Yeah, but that almost always could be a 5% increase in efficiency over its 32-bit counterpart. Technically it's true, but...comeon.
My argument isn't that 64-bit is entirely useless for iOS. There are advantages. What I'm saying is that it won't make nearly as big a difference as some people think. Even the small cumulative effects won't matter as much, because the things an OS does that could benefit from the bit jump, iOS doesn't do.
Like multitasking. Barring a few controlled exceptions, iOS state freezes. Backgrounded apps don't leverage any CPU power, they just stay memory resident until called upon.
Increases in processing efficiency. There aren't many apps that push even the older 32-bit processors to their limits. Any gains made here would be academic.
Games? Well, actually games would benefit from 64-bit. Depending on how it's all set up, you could see games run faster, run better, and not consume quite as much power as they would on 32-bit. But it depends on the type of game (it wouldn't make a difference for Angry Birds, but XCOM would see some advantages), and how good the programmer is.
There are tons of ifs, ands, and buts, but the overall gains you'll be getting from 64-bit iOS are marginal.
I'm agreeing with the Daring Fireball guy here. This is more about Apple laying the foundation for the future rather than bringing the future to us today.
edit: I'm gonna readdress this...
Recompiling 32-bit code to 64-bit doesn't mean it gives you all the advantages of made-from-scratch 64-bit code. It just makes it instruction set native. Yeah, you might see the rare occasion where it allows an app perform a little better, but in 99% of cases, it'll run exact the same as it did before.
Saying XCode makes apps truly 64-bit is like saying Grand Central Dispatch makes all applications multithreaded. It doesn't. It just makes them compliant. Only the programmer can do that. And to do that, he has to rewrite a goodly chunk of his code.
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As far as asking about specific apps that you will be able to perceive an increase... that's just a crazily open-ended question.
No it's not, not at all. Which apps on the iphone seem slow or sluggish to you that you think might act faster on a 64 bit processor. Which apps do you think you would have a better experience with if they ran "faster" or had improved "performance"? My impression that it won't make a difference is specifically tied to the user experience, how fast programs open, how much lag the device has, etc. If there is subjectively none of that now, what difference will an improvement make? Technically yes, from the standpoint of a consumer doing every day tasks, I don't think so.
My point is that, and yes I'm speaking of myself here, I have yet to find an app which runs slowly or I feel needs improvement in terms of speediness on my iphone 5. I'm NOT saying applications won't benefit, but will it be apparent to the naked eye? Will it functionally improve the user experience in any tangible way? I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
I don't necessarily expect a concrete answer, I just thought it made for an interesting discussion. I think a more concrete answer may, of course, be here after the 5s is with us and after we get 64bit app replacements and can compare them side by side. But even if an app opens up .0001 milliseconds quicker in 64 bit, it just seems like a lot of hype to me.
Which was my point. I was responding to the claim that it won't make a difference at all.
Which completely ignored my point. The fact that you personally may not be able to perceive performance improvements in any individual app, does not mean they don't have perceptible improvements. Especially when looked at cumulatively.
As I stated in a later post, even a minor performance improvement across the board can have a perceptible improvement in battery life, for example.
I ignored your point because it had nothing to do with my point, you did respond to me first. I NEVER said there would not be technical improvements, you missed my point from the beginning. I asked if those technical improvements would make a functional difference for consumers. Keep up, atta boy.
Battery life is significant, thank you, that's a tangible concrete improvement. I'd be curious to see what the "technical" numbers on that would be.
That's not a difference worth talking about. It's like us talking about the gas mileage on our cars.
"My car gets 32 MPG on highways".
"Yeah? Well my car get 32 MPG...and 1.35 feet. YUH HUH!".
I mean yeah. It's more. But comeon.
That's not a difference worth talking about. It's like us talking about the gas mileage on our cars.
"My car gets 32 MPG on highways".
"Yeah? Well my car get 32 MPG...and 1.35 feet. YUH HUH!".
I mean yeah. It's more. But comeon.
Thanks for understanding my point. I'm just curious about all the hype behind 64 bit versus the reality of how it will make the consumers experience better. Battery life is a big one, that's always nice to have, although I'd be curious if that means 5 minutes or 5 hours more.
I'm kinda interested in that myself. Thing is, without a 32-bit balance to compare it to, it's hard to tell how much of the gains are due to the 64-bit upgrade, or to the improvements made to the processor itself.
Either way, we'll figure out if the 5S is vastly better here in a couple.
You said "My first impression is that 64 bit won't make a difference at all, at least this generation cycle." I provided a quote from Apple that directly disputed that. I'm not sure what I missed.
That's not a difference worth talking about. It's like us talking about the gas mileage on our cars.
"My car gets 32 MPG on highways".
"Yeah? Well my car get 32 MPG...and 1.35 feet. YUH HUH!".
I mean yeah. It's more. But comeon.
Like I said, making up numbers doesn't help.
Much the opposite.
If somebody is a really low level programmer who has made crazy low-level code to pump out the max speed (using low-level tweaks that are specific to the 32-bit CPU) then they will probably have more challenges moving to 64-bit.
The high-level programmer will have absolutely no problems. Most code is all too simple to care which CPU you are using... agreed! Most developers will have no issues.
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Examples:
- For Mac I ported over a driver for a graphics card that linked up with 32-bit OS'. It used a lot of dynamic algorythms that were specifically hand coded to both the GPU and my CPU. 64-Bit kernel (and 64-bit apps using the card)... BANG! I had to make a lot of changes and even when I did, there frequently caused kernel panics. Sure I'm no great coder but this code was pretty low-level/intense compared to your adverage cooking app.
- Another app I ported is an interpreter for old text adventures. I originally made it on a G3 iMac. It has been compiled to work on 32-bit PPC CPUs, 64-bit PPC CPUs, 32/64-bit Intel CPUs and 32/64-bit ARM CPUS. It's really simple code as it's a "modern" version of code that was designed to run on 1980s computers. Getting it to run quickly wasn't a challenge so the code is all pretty high level.
Same coder, different apps/situations, that is all.
Wow, you spend so much time fervently trying to prove me wrong, yet you misunderstood my ENTIRE point. You can't take one sentence out of context. I already explained why you missed my point, and why your explanation did not contribute to my point in the least and does not dispute it. Indeed I was not even looking for a dispute or proof of anything. You did miss my point, and I assume continue to miss my point so let's just leave it at that.
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Yeah I think even if 64 bit does provide better battery life, it will be very hard to tell how much of that specifically comes from 64 bit processing, versus other things the 5s may have like improved battery technology, and what iOS7 itself brings to the table.
Wow, you spend so much time fervently trying to prove me wrong, yet you misunderstood my ENTIRE point. You can't take one sentence out of context. I already explained why you missed my point, and why your explanation did not contribute to my point in the least and does not dispute it. Indeed I was not even looking for a dispute or proof of anything. You did miss my point, and I assume continue to miss my point so let's just leave it at that.
Here's the thing. I wasn't responding to any larger point. I was responding to the line that I quoted.
I even said that your larger point about which apps will result in perceptible improvements is too vague and open-ended a question for a specific answer. Which you seemed to agree with. ("I don't necessarily expect a concrete answer...")
But it's not too vague and open ended. Are there any apps which you feel do not run fast enough for your satisfaction on an ip5 which may benefit from the 64bit processor and apps on the ip5s? See the thing is I was never looking for a specific answer, only a discussion, you know that thing they do on forums. It seems too often people on here become argumentative and in a rush to submit their "correct" answer. I would like to explore the reasons why or why not the 64bit revolution may or may not be hype. You gave a good example on the possibility of increased battery life, something worthy of discussion.