Developers Now Required to Share Phone Number and Address on EU App Store to Meet 'Trader' Requirement

[surferfb]

👉 Let the small hobbyist distribute his hobby app directly from his website - problem solved! 👍

They'd still be breaking EU law, would they not? If not, why not?

And if you think a hobbyist writing an app is going to have a more success selling it side loaded than in the App Store, you're insane. There is literally zero percent chance I install something from some developer I've never heard of's website, I would absolutely install an app that looks interesting from the App Store. I suspect most people would agree with me on that.

 

[AppliedMicro]

They'd still be breaking EU law, would they not? If not, why not?

The traceability of traders (according to articles 30 & 31 of the DSA) is an obligation for large online platforms (the App Store) - not individual traders.

Apple has to display it.
Not the trader him-/herself.

(Although if you make money from selling things, you may still be required to provide appropriate address/contact details on your website, according to local law, irrespective of the DMA).

 

[surferfb]

The traceability of traders (according to articles 30 & 31 of the DSA) is an obligation for large online platforms (the App Store) - not individual traders.

Interesting. Makes the law even stupider. I swear the EU has fetish for stupidly regulating tech. It's like they think it's the 1950s.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Interesting. Makes the law even stupider.

Quite the contrary.

Can't have your cake (operate a very large online platform with often monopoly power) and eat it too (deny and ignore all responsibility).

It prevents abuses of the "platform economy" operating model employed by (predominantly US-American) platform operators.
Think: Airbnb, eBay, Uber, Amazon, Booking, Apple, Google, your market-leading food delivery platform...

 

[surferfb]

Quite the contrary.

No - if this is actually about protecting consumers, requiring developers to share their information if they're on the App Store but not if they're not, is incredibly, incredibly stupid.

Can't have your cake (operate a very large online platform with often monopoly power) and eat it too (deny and ignore all responsibility).

I don't understand what you're getting at here. I don't think Apple cares one iota that they have to share this information. The developers are the ones who care.

It prevents abuses of the platform economy employed so successfully by (predominantly US-American) platform operators.
Think: Airbnb, eBay, Uber, Amazon, Booking, Apple, Google, your market-leading food delivery platform...

Every single large company has an easily searchable physical address. There is no need for this law for them. This only impacts small developers. Again - stupidity!

 

[BR3W]

I think something was lost in translation from Deutsch to English.

I missed this the first time I read it. If you publish commercial content in Germany, Austria, or Switzerland you are already required to abide by similar legislation that has been in place 1997. I referred to "impressumspflicht" in an earlier comment but it might have been lost in the sauce...

Impressumspflicht – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

Impressum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[BR3W]

Quite the contrary.

Can't have your cake (operate a very large online platform with often monopoly power) and eat it too (deny and ignore all responsibility).

Quite the contrary indeed--everyone who has cake desires to eat it and there ought not be anything to prevent that!

What one can't do, however, is eat one's cake and [then] have it, too.

 

[surferfb]

I missed this the first time I read it. If you publish commercial content in Germany, Austria, or Switzerland you are already required to abide by similar legislation that has been in place 1997. I referred to "impressumspflicht" in an earlier comment but it might have been lost in the sauce...

Impressumspflicht – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

Impressum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

My legal German is rusty but that was an interesting read. Just checked my favorite German podcast and sure enough they have the Impressum on their website. That would never, ever fly over here in a million years, but obviously it's working for you. Thanks for sharing!

 

[AppliedMicro]

I don't understand what you're getting at here

Apple is the beneficiary of their "App Store" online platform.
They make (tons of) money from it - from the tens of thousands of developers that use it.

And here we are:
- Making tons of money from their large online platform
- and benefitting from network effects that drive users to it (the more users, the more valuable the App Store)
- while denying responsibility for the contents provided by traders on it
- and withholding ways to contact the traders offering their goods/services on that platform.
That's not appreciated and not allowed anymore.

Every single large company has an easily searchable physical address. There is no need for this law for them

You should tell that to the U.S.
Example?!

👉 https://www.abbyy.com/

I'm certain I could somehow find their address to contact them (just as I could for some forum users on this thread).
But it's certainly not what I would call easily found and transparently displayed.

That would never, ever fly over here in a million years.

As I said before: there's a cultural divide.
Some use/sharing of data allowed in the U.S. wouldn't fly in Europe either (especially not in Germany).

 

[jlc1978]

Good thing they don’t go after hobbyists. They are after traders. Just like any other trader. It really isn’t anything unique or special being asked here.

However, a hobbyist selling the app is a trader.

 

[surferfb]

As I said before: there's a cultural divide.
Some use/sharing of data allowed in the U.S. wouldn't fly in Europe (and especially not in Germany).

That's why I'm surprised it's allowed and Europeans are pushing for it. To me, this seems like blatant sharing of personal data in a way that is not ok. I can't see most of my old neighborhood in Germany on Google Street view because a picture of the outside of your house is considered private data, but then you're over here saying "if an 18 year old tries to sell an app they built to learn Swift for 99 cents in the EU the government requires that they give everyone in the EU their address and phone number."

And then to top it off, it clearly doesn’t actually matter, because your solution is to have the same app sold off the App Store and then not be subject to releasing that data. Which, if this indeed about consumer protections, does nothing.

 

[jlc1978]

You should tell that to the U.S.
Example?!

👉 https://www.abbyy.com/

I'm certain I could somehow find their address to contact them (just as I could for some forum users on this thread).
But it's certainly not what I would call easily found and transparently displayed.

From a quick search of their website:

gina.ray@abbyy.com

It seems first.last is the email format so getting others may be straightforward.

 

[blufrog]

Y’know what. If they don’t want to follow the rules they should leave the App Store and not do their business in the EU.

Rules of different countries have to be followed. That’s how the world has always worked. Devs should dry their eyes and get on with making great software. Rules are rules.

Screw the EUSSR and this "trader" requirement.

As others have said, the EUSSR is a mess of contradictory law.

This started life as a law in Germany. In Germany, even websites need to display address and phone number. Now, the entire EUSSR needs to do this.

As for making people "safer"? Total BS. Businesses will just leave the EUSSR, or stop trading.

Communists harm everyone.

 

[blufrog]

That's why I'm surprised it's allowed and Europeans are pushing for it. To me, this seems like blatant sharing of personal data in a way that is not ok. I can't see most of my old neighborhood in Germany on Google Street view because a picture of the outside of your house is considered private data, but then you're over here saying "if an 18 year old tries to sell an app they built to learn Swift for 99 cents in the EU the government requires that they give everyone in the EU their address and phone number."

And then to top it off, it clearly doesn’t actually matter, because your solution is to have the same app sold off the App Store and then not be subject to releasing that data. Which, if this indeed about consumer protections, does nothing.

I can assure you, Europeans are NOT pushing for it.

The EUSSR is a Commie dictatorship. No-one wants it.

 

[blufrog]

As I'm posted earlier, my wife is a sole proprietor (actually has an LLC), but works under both as an Attorney out of our home office. She uses a PO Box as her legal address.

She does criminal cases and obviously doesn't want our home address available, and it's not.

In another piece of EUSSR stupidity, you are not allowed to use a PO Box as a registered business address.

 

[BR3W]

In another piece of EUSSR stupidity, you are not allowed to use a PO Box as a registered business address.

Yep, they're so dumb they probably don't even know that there's no one to receive legal paperwork at a post office box since postal workers can't sign for a business entity's behalf...or wait

 

[cyb3rdud3]

However, a hobbyist selling the app is a trader.

Bingo

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Does the EU make kids who sell lemonade in their neighborhood as a trader? What is different between that and a kid selling an app for 99 cents?

If those kids sold or distributed their lemonade through the shops and had it on the shelves 24x7 to be sold I'm pretty sure the same would apply. Typically, kids do this on a particular day, like a free trade day in the park, or a street party etc. Not an ongoing activity.

 

[AppliedMicro]

From a quick search of their website:

gina.ray@abbyy.com

That‘s not a mailing address that I can serve legal documents to.

As others have said, the EUSSR is a mess of contradictory law.
This started life as a law in Germany. In Germany, even websites need to display address and phone number. Now, the entire EUSSR needs to do this.

So what is contradictory about it?
Seems pretty consistent to me.

The EUSSR is a Commie dictatorship

At least they won‘t be electing a post-factual fascist as president anytime soon.

In another piece of EUSSR stupidity, you are not allowed to use a PO Box as a registered business address.

Neither are you allowed to do that in the UK.
Nor in Switzerland.
Nor in Singapore.
Nor in most U.S. states (you need a registered agent and physical ddress in most states).

What was your point again?

 

[AppliedMicro]

That's why I'm surprised it's allowed and Europeans are pushing for it. To me, this seems like blatant sharing of personal data in a way that is not ok.

Different country/region, different perception and attitude to privacy - and transparency.

As sn example, did you know that individual tax returns are publicly accessible information in some (Nordic) European countries?
Egalitarian societies with generous welfare states. Very safe, low violent crime rates. Among the highest standards of living in the world.

if an 18 year old tries to sell an app they built to learn Swift for 99 cents in the EU the government requires that they give everyone in the EU their address and phone number.

He doesn’t.
He can sell a license to his friends or in the neighbourhood.

If he or she‘s selling using a globally accessible online storefront and online payment processing, yes he may have to provide address.
Then again, what he does is basically no different from Microsoft - just on a smaller scale.

 

[jlc1978]

That‘s not a mailing address that I can serve legal documents to.

You said contact info, not a address to send legal documents.

But if you want a mailing address:

ABBYY headquarters:​

600 Congress Avenue, Suite 15015, Austin, TX 78701, USA
13 offices around the world

 

[BR3W]

You said contact info, not a address to send legal documents.

But if you want a mailing address:

ABBYY headquarters:​

600 Congress Avenue, Suite 15015, Austin, TX 78701, USA
13 offices around the world

The conversation was explicitly about a physical address (emphasis mine):

Every single large company has an easily searchable physical address. There is no need for this law for them. This only impacts small developers. Again - stupidity!

You should tell that to the U.S.
Example?!

👉 https://www.abbyy.com/

I'm certain I could somehow find their address to contact them (just as I could for some forum users on this thread).
But it's certainly not what I would call easily found and transparently displayed.

You responded to that post with this:

From a quick search of their website:

gina.ray@abbyy.com

It seems first.last is the email format so getting others may be straightforward.

 

[surferfb]

If those kids sold or distributed their lemonade through the shops and had it on the shelves 24x7 to be sold I'm pretty sure the same would apply. Typically, kids do this on a particular day, like a free trade day in the park, or a street party etc. Not an ongoing activity.

At the end of the day, this doesn't impact me at all so I’m going to stop posting about it.

I maintain that in my opinion it’s a stupid regulation that literally does nothing for the consumer (except give you the ability to sue a small developer, I guess) while actually harming 99.9% consumers by giving them fewer choices, small developers, Apple/Google, and EU member countries.

But clearly the EU can do no wrong for many of you, so I’ll drop it.

 

[AppliedMicro]

You said contact info, not a address to send legal documents.

Point taken. Although that still seems about the only place. It doesn't have a proper company name though ("Abbyy Global" isn't one). Their "legal" terms mention "ABBYY Development Inc." - but again no address. Can't find proper company name and address in their "About us" either. All a bit dodgy - compared to European software developers or large Japanese hardware companies (e.g. Brother, Ricoh). Let alone financial service providers (that I'm familiar with verifying and cross-referencing).

while actually harming 99.9% consumers by giving them fewer choices

...so does Apple's App Store monopoly (them forcing developers to use their store and payment system).

In spades.

 

[jlc1978]

The conversation was explicitly about a physical address

Not the post I responded to, all it mentioned was contact.

You responded to that post with this:

The post asked for a contact address, and when clarified to mean mailing I provided one, a physical address; it took at least 2 minutes of googling.

It wasn’t straightforward but it is available.