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Maybe I am missing something however what do you need powerful dGPU for when have silicon handling a lot of the tasks.

T2 silicon handles video encode, image processing for FaceTime.
tasks that traditionally done on a GPU.
afterburner card bring similar h264/h265 tasks for pro res handling rendering, another traditional CPU/GPU task.
if wanted ray tracing then again specialist silicon.

if being done in specialist silicon then the GPU don’t need as much grunt as in traditional cpu/GPU machine.

your GPU can be left for the actual Screen Display and specialist silicon handling the heavy lift.

not saying that everyone will find this useful however Apple have always said that Set out to do certain things, either it suits you or not. For instance anyone relying on CUDA been stuck at the mp5,1. However 7 years later Apple still seem to be doing ok.

for those people that still need traditional GPU power then eGPU will suffice. Mac Gaming does not seem something Apple interested in. If you can make it work for you, I just use a Windows rig instead.
 
Mac Gaming does not seem something Apple interested in. If you can make it work for you, I just use a Windows rig instead.

Apple is definitely interested in gaming. Rumours abound of an Apple Console which I used to think was far fetched but its actually the one missing part of the Apple consumer ecosystem. Its also an excuse for Apple customers to let rivals in because if you can't play games on your Mac/iPhone/iPad/Apple Console, you have a reason to get an Xbox or a Playstation. Once you have one of those, it does a few things like streaming video and music and since its already hooked up to the TV and probably the stereo, you might as well sign up to whatever non-Apple services they use these days.

Apple Silicon will definitely improve gaming on Mac even if its only because they run iOS games, but I suspect it will tempt a few more devs to make games with scalable graphics settings. Call of Duty Mobile looks great on an iPhone 11 but it runs just fine on a 6S.Expect a future version to look as good on Mac as it does on the full console versions but still scale down to run on enough iDevices to be available to a gargantuan market.
Apple has released Windows dev tools to help port games to Apple Silicon. They are definitely interested in gaming.
 
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Apple is definitely interested in gaming. Rumours abound of an Apple Console which I used to think was far fetched but its actually the one missing part of the Apple consumer ecosystem. Its also an excuse for Apple customers to let rivals in because if you can't play games on your Mac/iPhone/iPad/Apple Console, you have a reason to get an Xbox or a Playstation. Once you have one of those, it does a few things like streaming video and music and since its already hooked up to the TV and probably the stereo, you might as well sign up to whatever non-Apple services they use these days.

Apple Silicon will definitely improve gaming on Mac even if its only because they run iOS games, but I suspect it will tempt a few more devs to make games with scalable graphics settings. Call of Duty Mobile looks great on an iPhone 11 but it runs just fine on a 6S.Expect a future version to look as good on Mac as it does on the full console versions but still scale down to run on enough iDevices to be available to a gargantuan market.
Apple has released Windows dev tools to help port games to Apple Silicon. They are definitely interested in gaming.

I think Apple arcade is as far as Apple is interested in gaming. Would be foolish for Apple to try and get into the console wars with Xbox/Playstation/Nintendo.
 
I think Apple arcade is as far as Apple is interested in gaming. Would be foolish for Apple to try and get into the console wars with Xbox/Playstation/Nintendo.

Why is it foolish? It's another service revenue generator for them and services is already generating more revenue to them than Macs and close to including iPad combined (22% services, 12% Macs and 11% iPads as of last quarter).

It is unlikely given their history but it is not foolish. Microsoft is trying to combine Xbox and PC together as a single universal platform and using Game Pass to try to generate more revenue, even tho it is not making them much profit just yet.

Apple already has the largest gaming market for casual gamers with iOS and mobile gaming is increasing every year in terms of total gaming market. Fortnite on iOS made Epic billions of dollars and will continue to do so.

They don't have to do much with the console, they can just include A12Z in the Apple TV and they already have a solid competitor against Xbox S, PS4 base, and Switch. All of which is 1080p gaming, which A12Z should be capable of (A12Z can do Fortnite at 120fps at higher resolution (iPad Pro) but with a bit lower graphics quality settings).

They can release a higher end Apple TV Pro with A14X if they want to tackle 4K gaming. Game companies would love to ship a game that works on all platforms that Apple has; 1.5b user install for iOS, 100m Macs and however many users that have Apple TV.
 
Why is it foolish? It's another service revenue generator for them and services is already generating more revenue to them than Macs and close to including iPad combined (22% services, 12% Macs and 11% iPads as of last quarter).

It is unlikely given their history but it is not foolish. Microsoft is trying to combine Xbox and PC together as a single universal platform and using Game Pass to try to generate more revenue, even tho it is not making them much profit just yet.

Apple already has the largest gaming market for casual gamers with iOS and mobile gaming is increasing every year in terms of total gaming market. Fortnite on iOS made Epic billions of dollars and will continue to do so.

They don't have to do much with the console, they can just include A12Z in the Apple TV and they already have a solid competitor against Xbox S, PS4 base, and Switch. All of which is 1080p gaming, which A12Z should be capable of (A12Z can do Fortnite at 120fps at higher resolution (iPad Pro) but with a bit lower graphics quality settings).

They can release a higher end Apple TV Pro with A14X if they want to tackle 4K gaming. Game companies would love to ship a game that works on all platforms that Apple has; 1.5b user install for iOS, 100m Macs and however many users that have Apple TV.


I don't disagree with what you say but I'm talking about a dedicated gaming console that can run modern games such as Battlefield 5, halo, zelda etc. I don't see it ever happening.

For mobile games, yeah the market is huge for those types of games, which is why I think Apple create Apple Arcade to cater to the millions of casual gamers that just want a quick game session.
 
I think Apple arcade is as far as Apple is interested in gaming. Would be foolish for Apple to try and get into the console wars with Xbox/Playstation/Nintendo.

I've literally just explained why its not foolish but in fact essential. They don't have to beat Xbox or PS5 at top end gaming (Yet), they just need something compelling enough to replace some of the casual console gamers and get Apple services into the living room ahead of Sony and MS. Its likely any console will develop from the AppleTV.
There are game streamers but Apple is going to want its cut of those micro transactions in the long run. And games devs are increasingly going to want access to those billion (bigger spending than Android) users.

Don't forget, now Apple makes its own Silicon on an annual refresh cycle, they actually have a massive advantage over Xbox and Playstation. Those only get updates every few years. Apple can catch up to them fast. If they want to. Throw in their rumoured work with AR and VR (Which if anyone is going to get right its Apple) and they could do perfectly well in that space. Consoles have three major components to them:

Hardware -> Apple can win here;
Marketing Budget -> Apple can win here;
Games (Developers) -> Get the first two right and this one should take care of itself.
 
I don't disagree with what you say but I'm talking about a dedicated gaming console that can run modern games such as Battlefield 5, halo, zelda etc. I don't see it ever happening.

For mobile games, yeah the market is huge for those types of games, which is why I think Apple create Apple Arcade to cater to the millions of casual gamers that just want a quick game session.

Halo would be interesting, seeing as how Microsoft stole it out from under Apple before it was even published...

Zelda...? I seriously doubt you will every see any first-tier Nintendo games on anything but Nintendo hardware...
 
Halo would be interesting, seeing as how Microsoft stole it out from under Apple before it was even published...

Zelda...? I seriously doubt you will every see any first-tier Nintendo games on anything but Nintendo hardware...

As far as I know those two are both still exclusives owned by MS and Nintendo respectively, so no, its doubtful you'll see either of them on any Apple platform any time soon.
 
As far as I know those two are both still exclusives owned by MS and Nintendo respectively, so no, its doubtful you'll see either of them on any Apple platform any time soon.

Precisely, they are exclusive to MS and Nintendo respectively. Apple would need to create some exclusive titles to attract people to an Apple console.

I came across this article - not certain if it’s technically correct or if everyone has seen this already


Would be interesting to see these Apple GPUs come to light. It would make sense given that they are wanting to make their own CPUs that they would make their own GPUs and not use AMD.
 
I came across this article - not certain if it’s technically correct or if everyone has seen this already


Nothing particularly technical to evaluate there or not. It is basically "same stuff , different day". This spanning of this thread and lots of other hand waving in several other threads on this website all boil down to gross generalizations from a single slide that Apple put up at WWDC.

Grounding back into reality. The transition development Mac ( which is the only one the general developer "public" can get to from June to much later in the Fall) only has a integrated GPU. It is an Mac Mini case so there is no add-in-card GPU possible at all. There is no Thunderbolt port so a eGPU isn't possible either. The slide fits exactly fits the situation that developers were going to be in for many, many months.

WWDC is primarily about what is not what Apple is going to be doing 2-4 years from now. The "is" might be a beta version at WWDC but it is something developers can go, try out, and "do" on. That is what the slide was covering. Not some secret magic-8 ball fortune teller session. That slide is far more about the extinction of Intel iGPUs than anything about the dGPUs.


Next WWDC when Apple has shipped something that has a dGPU or a couple of systems that can possible use an eGPU then Apple can change the slide.

If Apple's first systems are MacBook , MacBook Pro 13" , and/or Mac Mini replacements then it wouldn't be surprising if there are no dGPU drivers written just for them. Those systems don't have any dGPUs. Haven't had any historically either. if there are no embedded dGPUs to piggyback off of ( e.g., MBP 16" like system doesn't come until much later into 2021 and iMac using a dGPU doesn't come until much later also. ) Just because Apple releases something with a Thunderbolt port on it doesn't mean they are going to "Big Bang" every possible driver layered on top of Thunderbolt over in one quick migration.

macOS 11 changing up the kernel driver model more likely means there going to be lots of choppy driver migrations over to the new system. ( some will move fast , others won't , others folks will just walk away from , buggy ones , etc. )

In terms of bulk of GPUs sold in Macs in the pre-Apple Silicon era the bulk of them are integrated ones. The bulk of Mac sales are in the "lower half" of the laptop line up. It makes tremendous sense for Apple to work on that one first. And to have developers put the most effort into that area first also. After that is "working" then they can move on to the next step. Screw up that foundation of sales and they don't have much of anything that is healthy.
 
...
Would be interesting to see these Apple GPUs come to light. It would make sense given that they are wanting to make their own CPUs that they would make their own GPUs and not use AMD.

Apple has already been in the GPU business for years.

The set of workloads that an integrated GPU can cover has been growing larger. There isn't any substantive sign that Apple wants to make a "does everything for everybody" GPU anymore than they want to make a "does everything for everybody" CPU. They are probably only out to do a subset.

About half of the Mac line up has no discrete GPU ( Macbook Air , MacBook Pro 13 , Mac Mini , [ Macbook if bring back] ) 3-4 systems.
About half of the Mac line up does ( MBP 16" , iMac , Mac Pro , [ iMac Pro if count seperate ) 3-4

If Apple can drop the MBP 16" out of the second group with a future SoC then probably shovel it from one list to another. [ Tehcnicaly the non-retina, "Educational" iMac is sitting in the iGPU group already. If it stays after conversion that too ]

Unlike the Intel workstation chips ( Xeon E5 or now W ) in the iMac Pro and Mac Pro there is very good chance that Apple's top end SoC will still have a iGPU ( not a 'world beater' but something good enough to run an unmodified iPhone app reasonably well. )

Apple probably is going to make the Apple GPU ubiquitous. Present in every Mac so that every Mac runs many/most iOS apps. They don't need to make the "biggest" Apple GPU to do that. They just need to make it present by default. Pretty likely the Apple GPU will aways be there no matter what with a future Mac. So it is an option that developers "have to" work on.


dGPUs aren't dead. they just aren't the primary focus effort by Apple Macs. The higher end Mac will probably still have them, but they also probably are not coming any time soon .
 
If Apple's first systems are MacBook , MacBook Pro 13" , and/or Mac Mini replacements then it wouldn't be surprising if there are no dGPU drivers written just for them. Those systems don't have any dGPUs. Haven't had any historically either.

Actually Mac Minis have had discrete GPUs in the past. Its been almost a decade though.
 
I came across this article - not certain if it’s technically correct or if everyone has seen this already

Good read. Though not thrilled with the confusion caused by their constant references of the "A12Z." I also talked to a computer engineer recently who was very skeptical that Apple could make its own dGPU from scratch. I would've liked it if the article delved into more of what makes scaling up GPUs difficult.

Of course, the way around this is "an integrated part with a combined HBM2 stack to feed both CPU and memory." Some challenges still remain with that approach too, but they would not have to figure out things like copying display data to the APU memory so the dGPU can be turned off at any time.
 
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Apple has already been in the GPU business for years.

The set of workloads that an integrated GPU can cover has been growing larger. There isn't any substantive sign that Apple wants to make a "does everything for everybody" GPU anymore than they want to make a "does everything for everybody" CPU. They are probably only out to do a subset.

About half of the Mac line up has no discrete GPU ( Macbook Air , MacBook Pro 13 , Mac Mini , [ Macbook if bring back] ) 3-4 systems.
About half of the Mac line up does ( MBP 16" , iMac , Mac Pro , [ iMac Pro if count seperate ) 3-4

If Apple can drop the MBP 16" out of the second group with a future SoC then probably shovel it from one list to another. [ Tehcnicaly the non-retina, "Educational" iMac is sitting in the iGPU group already. If it stays after conversion that too ]

Unlike the Intel workstation chips ( Xeon E5 or now W ) in the iMac Pro and Mac Pro there is very good chance that Apple's top end SoC will still have a iGPU ( not a 'world beater' but something good enough to run an unmodified iPhone app reasonably well. )

Apple probably is going to make the Apple GPU ubiquitous. Present in every Mac so that every Mac runs many/most iOS apps. They don't need to make the "biggest" Apple GPU to do that. They just need to make it present by default. Pretty likely the Apple GPU will aways be there no matter what with a future Mac. So it is an option that developers "have to" work on.


dGPUs aren't dead. they just aren't the primary focus effort by Apple Macs. The higher end Mac will probably still have them, but they also probably are not coming any time soon .
The difference will be, that now, you can plug egpu in any tb3 socket in any mac.
In the future, if there are tb3-non-gpu sockets and tb3-yes-gpu sockets, it will be a mess.

BTW, has anybody counted how many different dgpu's are in the current mac lineup?
If 1/4 of macs sold now have dgpu, it will show how small number of each gpu model is needed.
Maybe Apple could designt just one gpu model and using it in all cases? Marking bad cores off for weaker need and clocking them also accordingly?
 
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I came across this article - not certain if it’s technically correct or if everyone has seen this already


That article could have been just a minor post on these forums. It doesn't say anything new or interesting. The Mac Pro speculation thread has a lot of interesting information it, especially in regards to newer hardware designs and how Apple could use an architecture not unlike to what AMD has been promoting for the last couple of years.

In regards to their laptop GPUs — a SoC will offer more then enough power to outperform anything currently available in that space. When it comes to thermally constrained designs, Apple is king. Given the same 50W limit they have been working with for decades, they will be able to build a faster GPU than anyone else. This is something that the article you quote misrepresents. Apple is not "planning" to build their own GPUs. They have been building them for years. They have the technology, they "just" need to produce a design with more GPU cores. Their 2 year old GPU offers equivalent performance to an Nvidia Maxwell GPU that consumes 5-6 times more power.

Actually Mac Minis have had discrete GPUs in the past. Its been almost a decade though.

That was during PowerPC times, which lacked iGPUs. Move to Intel made those obsolete.
 
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We need to remember that Apple Silicon means something that is pretty new in the laptop/desktop world - a System on a Chip. So the GPU is no longer a separete part using a bus (like PCIe) but rather it is a block inside the SOC. If they put enough cores with anough per core power in that GPU block, then coupled with enough system memory they won't need a dGPU or eGPU.
 
Don’t they already make their own gpus.....all the MPX module gpu’s for Mac Pro seem to be bespoke.

It's a joint venture with AMD, so it's not their own silicon inside.

We need to remember that Apple Silicon means something that is pretty new in the laptop/desktop world - a System on a Chip. So the GPU is no longer a separete part using a bus (like PCIe) but rather it is a block inside the SOC. If they put enough cores with anough per core power in that GPU block, then coupled with enough system memory they won't need a dGPU or eGPU.

This isn't anything new. Intel CPU's have have integrated graphics for years. The SoC is more about all of the other features like coprocessors, hardware execrators, neural engine, machine learning, security enclave, audio processors, etc.
 
We need to remember that Apple Silicon means something that is pretty new in the laptop/desktop world - a System on a Chip. So the GPU is no longer a separete part using a bus (like PCIe) but rather it is a block inside the SOC. If they put enough cores with anough per core power in that GPU block, then coupled with enough system memory they won't need a dGPU or eGPU.

This isn't anything new. Intel CPU's have have integrated graphics for years. The SoC is more about all of the other features like coprocessors, hardware execrators, neural engine, machine learning, security enclave, audio processors, etc.
 
The difference will be that now, you can plug egpu in any tb3 socket in any mac.
In the future, if there are tb3-non-gpu sockets and tb3-yes-gpu sockets, it will be a mess.

There isn't going to be those. The TBv3+ ( probably 4 or better) will have PCI-e.
Whether an external GPU works on not has nothing to do with Thunderbolt. It only has to do with a driver being available for macOS.

There is a decent chance that Apple may push 3rd party GPUs into a System Extension ( the new driver/extension) format. The GPU is going to have to work in a IOMMU virtual addressing context, but it probably will be a matter of writing the software/firmware as oppose to some hardware level thing.

What is gong to keep eGPU significantly in the game is Apple using discrete GPUs in some Mac systems. The larger problem will occurs if Apple isn't helping to sponsor any other GPU driver development. If they invest zero in that there is a big financial in getting the drivers written ( what 3rd party GPU is going to want to solely bankroll that if the "keeper of the kernel" is 100% disinterested in helping them. ).

There is a more than decent chance Apple isn't so hyped up on eGPUs more so than their own complete systems . Enabling eGPUs probably will be on the "do in our copious spare time" priority list up until Apple is about to ship a system with a discrete GPU in it. Then that "free" (already paid for) driver work will dribble out to the eGPU ecosystem. Cards on Apple's supported list all have either a direct ( or strong chip implementation ) link to a Mac system. eGPU never were decoupled from Mac system GPU configurations at all. That won't be "new" with Apple Silicon, that is how it has always been. Probably how it is going to be in the future also.







The eGPU is just as specialized exteranal PCI-e connector enclosure. Apple going extreme myopic on hardware implementations isn't just going to be a GPU only problem. If the Apple goes 100% disinterested in discrete USB controllers. The vast majority of 3rd party discrete Ethernet controllers. etc. then TB docks will start loosing robustness and functionality too.


BTW, has anybody counted how many different dgpu's are in the current mac lineup?
If 1/4 of macs sold now have dgpu, it will show how small number of each gpu model is needed.

There are two dimensions. One is time and other is systems. There being a track record on previous dGPU usages brings in cards. That contributing factor may substantively hiccup with Apple Silicon. The intel systems will keep what they have but also hiccup going forward is the Apple Silicon systems don't bring in much new ( the Mac Pro corner case may keep things alive until it is converted. )

On the other dimension it really isn't the case that Apple is trying to cover the GPU offering families of the 3rd party implementations just for completeness sake. If some Mac needed one, then it gets added. So really what is at issue is how many Mac will "need one" in the Apple Silicon era.

At present the current Apple systems are using AMD 5300 ( at different clocks) , 5500 (different clocks ) , 5700 (different clocks) , "Vega64" (gen 1 ) , and data center Vega ( Vega 20 ) . Vega64 is somewhat an artifact of a mostly comatose model ( iMac Pro 2017 ...creeping up on 3 years old ). So there is about 4 levels now.

5300 level is probably at some risk. ( the iMac 2020 5300 doing as well as the older 580X on some tasks shows that it is in the competitive toss up stage though. Even if Apple 'catches' 5300 with an iGPU in 1-2 years that AMD class will likely be in a higher performance zone. )



Maybe Apple could designt just one gpu model and using it in all cases? Marking bad cores off for weaker need and clocking them also accordingly?

That doesn't work economically. The "bad core" defects are not going to generate enough volume to fulfill something that sells at much higher volume than the "bigger core count" model. You'd have to fill low core orders with dies with perfectly good cores in a very large substantial ratio to the dead ones.
You can fill a relatively low volume product with leftovers but that isn't how to do high volume products. Making the die to fit is much better. Far better wafer utilization ( get more dies out of a single wafer). [ doing a bigger die means get fewer dies off the wafer. Which means need to do higher wafer throughput to get t the same number of units to sell. That costs more. ]

More likely Apple wants Apple GPU ubiquity ( appears in all Macs ) more so than trying to take on the upper 25-35% percentile performance level discrete GPU market. The WWDC chart is more a reflection of that likely inevitable situations where it is always. ( So therefore developers should optimize all apps to it being there; no distractions or procrastination on 'would-a could-a should-a' future excuses . )

There may be 3 players in that high end space by 2022. Apple has a big enough battle to win at the iGPU level. Intel Gen12 is looking more than decent. AMD isn't failing there either. By early 2022 both will probably have integrated to something better. So will have Nvidia in low power dGPU space for laptops. If AMD and Intel fail at competitive dGPU that strongly support Metal then Apple may be squeezed into stepping into that role. But that isn't happening so far, and Apple probably doesn't want to add that to the pile. ( that does absolutely nothing for iOS , iPadOS , and every other xxOS variant they have out there. whereas all of those (and likely every Mac ) have iGPU. )
 
We need to remember that Apple Silicon means something that is pretty new in the laptop/desktop world - a System on a Chip.

Eh?

So the GPU is no longer a separete part using a bus (like PCIe) but rather it is a block inside the SOC.

That has been the Intel baseline design for the mainstream Core processors for more than several years.

For example, 2010 Sandy Bridge.


( no means the first of these but a decade back as opposed to this recent radical innovation by Apple).


If they put enough cores with anough per core power in that GPU block, then coupled with enough system memory they won't need a dGPU or eGPU.

More cores means more space ( bigger die). At some point grow the die so big that is becomes an economic ( cost ) and volume production issue ( can you make enough; scaling factors ).

Apple is using leading edge fab process to put 'more' into a smaller space, but they aren't doing "big dies". They are largely just closely following the process shrink line available.
 
We need to remember that Apple Silicon means something that is pretty new in the laptop/desktop world - a System on a Chip.

Laptops have been using system on a chip designs for almost a decade now... got an Intel or AMD laptop? Congratulation, you own a system on a chip.
 
I don't disagree with what you say but I'm talking about a dedicated gaming console that can run modern games such as Battlefield 5, halo, zelda etc. I don't see it ever happening.
Agreed Apple will never do a Pippin 2. However having an Apple TV like device that in an Apple TV but can also play top notch games? That could happen. The latest A series chips rival the Textra X1 very well. So Apple can easily do top notch gaming that way. Of cause they'd be just the platform holder and not ever develop any games of their own (just like Sony and MS don't develop any games of their own). Though I don't see Apple buying up any gaming studios anytime soon either.

This could be the future of the Apple TV. Though honestly I think it's better to keep it as a lower cost streaming box as it is today.
 
Saying an integrated GPU and a SoC are the same thing is not really correct. A CPU that has an iGPU has those two items on the CPU die, and they access system memory via a bus (like PCIe). A SOC also includes a lot of other co-processor blocks. And yes this is one of the first times we have seen a full fledged SoC on a laptop and/or desktop.
 
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