Did I do something wrong or miss something with my samsung evo 970pro??

aslowdodge

macrumors member
Original poster
Nov 12, 2012
90
9
Did I do something wrong or miss something?
On my mac 4.1 updated to 5.1 with High sierra.
I installed Angelbird Wings PX1 with samsung evo 970pro in slot 2.
I used super duper to create a bootable clone onto it from my SSd mounted in the sata bay spot.
It feels the same. Boot times on both the old SSD and the Evo are runing in the 72 second time range.
I opened a video that was 2.7 gb and save it with a new name. Both drives take about 51 seconds to make the copy and write it to the desktop.
I'm not sure this has anything to do with it, but isnt slot 1 and 2 supposed to both be x16?
I got this

Screen Shot 2019-01-01 at 9.35.12 PM.png
Screen Shot 2019-01-01 at 9.35.21 PM.png


What am I doing wrong?
Even though I specified the startup to be on the new EVO and it shows this, I feel like I'm running on the Old SSD

Screen Shot 2019-01-01 at 9.50.59 PM.png
 

crjackson2134

macrumors 601
Mar 6, 2013
4,502
1,628
Charlotte, NC
Just a couple of tips for you...

There is no such thing as an EVO 970Pro. It’s either an EVO or a Pro, but not both. Two different types of NAND. One is TLC the other is MLC.

The SSD mounted in the HDD bay will normally boot faster because the SATA BUSS is built in, and it’s the default interface on the cMP to boot from. The NVME is on the PCIe BUSS and requires some time for the system to scan that BUSS and initiate/negotiate connection parameters.

You won’t see much if any improvement on light usage and file copy. NVME will show itself to be much faster when you benchmark it, but you won’t notice it probably if you are doing only menial tasks as mentioned.

If you were using VM’s and doing multiple file operations simultaneously, then you should be able to appreciate the difference.
 

gatd

macrumors regular
Jun 2, 2008
123
13
I had the same thing samsung 970 evo and highpoint card got read writes of 3200 but in real world usage booting loading apps etc was only a fraction faster than the built in sata II ssd so sent back and bought more ssds
 

aslowdodge

macrumors member
Original poster
Nov 12, 2012
90
9
Hmmm. I guess maybe the money I spent on the 970 Pro and angelbird wings was probably not well spent for what I do, photoshop, lightroom, painter.
What are VMs?
Well I hope the change to the rx580 8gb is substantial over the gt120 and the change from the 2.26 processor to the 3.46 makes a difference.
Is there a test to see how fast the 970 Pro is running that I can download?
 

bsbeamer

macrumors 68020
Sep 19, 2012
2,402
1,116
Have a PX1 with EVO 970 on 10.13.6 and have noticed faster application launch for those with lots of plugins, like Adobe After Effects, Premiere Pro, and audio applications. Will note that macOS spotlight seems to slow down the read/write for the drive during first 3-4 hours while drive is re-indexed. Even happens when starting from a straight clone.

If you're already on an SSD with a PCIe SATA adapter, it's not a tremendous speed upgrade to NVMe for the majority of day to day.

If you're on HDD or SSD direct via one of 4 SATA bays, any SSD via PCIe is a speed increase and at this point would recommend NVMe over SATA since it's fully compatible with the 140.0.0.0.0 firmware.
 

flowrider

macrumors 603
Nov 23, 2012
5,545
1,967
Did I do something wrong or miss something?
On my mac 4.1 updated to 5.1 with High sierra.
I installed Angelbird Wings PX1 with samsung evo 970pro in slot 2.
Can you run the speed test app AJA Systems Test from here:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/aja-system-test-lite/id1092006274?mt=12

Available in the Mac App Store.

AFAIK, the Angelbird does not have Bifurcation, so it will never give the performance of a card with a switch, see this thread:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/blade-ssds-nvme-ahci.2146725/

And as I remember, a non-switched card will run at a slower speed in slot 2 than in slot 3 or 4. I have an Angelbird with an AHCI SSD in slot 4 and an I/O Crest with two 970 Pros in slot 2.

Please run the test and report back.

If you're on HDD or SSD direct via one of 4 SATA bays, any SSD via PCIe is a speed increase and at this point would recommend NVMe over SATA since it's fully compatible with the 140.0.0.0.0 firmware.
The OP is running an MVMe SSD.

Lou
 
Last edited:

h9826790

macrumors G5
Apr 3, 2014
12,799
5,620
Hong Kong
Your NVMe is now cap at ~750MB/s. So, it's far from what it can do (or what you expect).

Slot 2 is a PCIE 2.0 x4 slot. However, the NVMe itself is a PCIe 3.0 x4 device.

When you combine them together. The max possible final connection is PCIe 2.0 x4 (applicable for Angelbird Wings PX1). Therefore, it will be limited to ~1500MB/s.

And there is a bug in the old cMP firmware (0089.B00 or before). If you install the NVMe in slot 2, it will actually fail to negotiate at PCIe 2.0 (again, applicable to Angelbird Wings PX1), but further downgrade to PCIe 1.0, that's why your system info shows 2.5GT/s x4. Which makes the NVMe can only deliver up to ~750MB/s.

If you want 1500MB/s, you can either install the NVMe in slot 3, or update the firmware to 138.0.0.0.0 or newer.

In any case, it shouldn't provide significant improvement over your SATA SSD for booting / apps loading. And you video loading / saving test seems was bottlenecked by CPU performance. 51s is ridiculous slow to load a 2.7GB video and save it again. Even a SATA II connected SSD (max at 250MB/s), it only need 11s to load, another 11s to save. If anything significant more than 22s, which means you are bottlenecked by something else, but not storage speed. In this case, give the system an even faster storage of course won't help anything.

Anyway, if you want to know why your NVMe won't makes the system much faster, you may use Xbench and check its 4k random read speed.
MX500.png


For booting and apps loading, this is usually the main factor to define system responsiveness, but not the sequential speed.
 

flowrider

macrumors 603
Nov 23, 2012
5,545
1,967
Your NVMe is now cap at ~750MB/s. So, it's far from what it can do (or what you expect).

Slot 2 is a PCIE 2.0 x4 slot. However, the NVMe itself is a PCIe 3.0 x4 device.
Actually Slot 2 is a PCIe 2.0 X16 slot, but yes, as I recall, there is a bug in the firmware that holds the speed back when using the DT-120 or an Angelbird.

Lou
 
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aslowdodge

macrumors member
Original poster
Nov 12, 2012
90
9
okay here's something. I think I'm running the OS off of the 970PRO, but when I downloaded the app
AJA System Test Lite it installed on the older toshiba ssd in sata bay 1 hard drive, the original drive I was booting from before installing Pro 970
So the question is am I really running on the pro 970?

Also I thought my transfer speed would max out at 1500 mbs with the new setup while the old sata ssd was maxing out at about 250mbs because of the sata connection.
 

aslowdodge

macrumors member
Original poster
Nov 12, 2012
90
9
Ok I ran the aja system light test and got this

Toshiba sata ssd 1.png



I noticed the target was the old ssd but I ran it anyway.

Next I tried to switch to the 970pro and it wouldn't let me. I got this

switch target, won't allow.png


I did select the 970 pro as the startup disk, but it seems to default to the old startup.

Screen Shot 2019-01-02 at 2.39.39 PM.png



I got suspicious and pulled out the old ssd so it could only boot from the 970pro as the only choice and got the folder icon with the flashing ? mark

So for some reason it won't boot from the 970pro
 

bsbeamer

macrumors 68020
Sep 19, 2012
2,402
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You're on the 140.0.0.0.0 firmware?
If so, remove the "Hard drive SSD macOS, 10.13.6" from the system and try again.
 

expede

macrumors regular
Jan 15, 2018
198
52
Sweden
As bsbeamer said: If you still on Firmware 138.0.0.0.0 you need to alter the firmware with NVMe support. Just update to F 140.0.0.0.0 and it will fix itself.

/Per
 

leon771

macrumors regular
Sep 17, 2011
203
51
Australia
I'm going to hazard a guess that your machine is not running the latest firmware of 140.0.0.0

I had a 4,1 (8 x 2.26ghz) that I flashed to 5,1.
Biggest speed difference was switching from rotational hdd to sataII SSD.
Next biggest difference was replacing the 2.26GHz CPUs with 2.93GHz CPUs.

Change from GT120 to ATI4870 to RX580 not such big jumps either for the work I do.
I have a 970 evo in this machine as well, and as others have said, not any perceptible difference compared to SATAII SSD.
Where the NVME drive has come into its own is when I am querying a 160GB database for matches (for scientists here I am have the NCBI nucleotide database stored locally on the 970 and perform my blast searches that way).
 

bsbeamer

macrumors 68020
Sep 19, 2012
2,402
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10.13.6 will not natively support NVMe booting without the 140.0.0.0.0 firmware. You need to download the latest Mojave full installer in order to obtain the 140.0.0.0.0 firmware. Once installed, this should solve all your issues. You do NOT need to update to Mojave in order to install the 140.0.0.0.0 firmware, just have a Metal-capable GPU installed.
 
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skizzo

macrumors regular
Apr 11, 2018
229
59
10.13.6 will not natively support NVMe booting without the 140.0.0.0.0 firmware. You need to download the latest Mojave full installer in order to obtain the 140.0.0.0.0 firmware. Once installed, this should solve all your issues. You do NOT need to update to Mojave in order to install the 140.0.0.0.0 firmware, just have a Metal-capable GPU installed.
OP is going to need to install or purchase a Metal capable GPU. Looking at the 1st post they have two GT120's installed, therefore, the Mojave installer will detect the non metal GPU and not run.
 

aslowdodge

macrumors member
Original poster
Nov 12, 2012
90
9
So how do I just install the 140.0.0.0.0 firmware if I don't want to install Mojave yet. How do I see what firmware I have currently?
I do have a Sapphire Nitro+ Radeon 580rx sitting in the box next to me that I was going to work with one I got this and the two xx5590s installed ( praticing on delidding a few cheapos now and waiting for thermal paste to be delivered)

One thing is that the Sapphire and angelbird are really tight. When I put the Sapphire in slot 1 the angelbird in slot 2, the two mounting nuts on the anglebird push on the plastic housing of the sapphire. Would I lose anything moving the angelbird to slot 3 or 4?
 

bsbeamer

macrumors 68020
Sep 19, 2012
2,402
1,116
See this thread for install help with RX580 and using all slots:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mp5-1-sapphire-pulse-rx580-8gb-spacer-wedge-for-pcie-slot-2.2134562/

See this thread for 140.0.0.0.0 install:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mp5-1-bootrom-thread-140-0-0-0-0.2132317/

Basically put your RX580 in machine, download FULL INSTALLER for Mojave, run installer and you'll be prompted for firmware update. Run the update, restart machine (let it do it's thing), and then do not continue Mojave install on re-boot. You'll need to be on MP51.0089.B00 before installing 138.0.0.0.0 or 140.0.0.0.0 firmware.

About This Mac > System Report > Hardware Overview > Boot ROM Version for current firmware.
 

skizzo

macrumors regular
Apr 11, 2018
229
59
@aslowdodge

The GPU you have is wider than the bottom most double wide PCIe slot. The Nitro+ variant of the RX580 is going to block anything being installed in slot 2. The link provided by bsbeamer is actually for the non Nitro+ variant (Sapphire Pulse RX580) so I am not sure if the Nitro+ variants will gain anything from the advice in that thread. Its physically larger in height in comparison to the standard Pulse RX580
 

aslowdodge

macrumors member
Original poster
Nov 12, 2012
90
9
See this thread for install help with RX580 and using all slots:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mp5-1-sapphire-pulse-rx580-8gb-spacer-wedge-for-pcie-slot-2.2134562/

See this thread for 140.0.0.0.0 install:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mp5-1-bootrom-thread-140-0-0-0-0.2132317/

Basically put your RX580 in machine, download FULL INSTALLER for Mojave, run installer and you'll be prompted for firmware update. Run the update, restart machine (let it do it's thing), and then do not continue Mojave install on re-boot. You'll need to be on MP51.0089.B00 before installing 138.0.0.0.0 or 140.0.0.0.0 firmware.

About This Mac > System Report > Hardware Overview > Boot ROM Version for current firmware.

Okay I was able to return my Saphire Nitro+. Thanks for the link as it was 2.2 slots high and I am going to order the Pulse which id 2 slots high, but now I see what appears to be identical Pulses, but different prices. I have the Mac Pro 4.1 so which one?

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202278&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Video+Cards+-+AMD/ATI-_-N82E16814202278&gclid=Cj0KCQiA37HhBRC8ARIsAPWoO0wdlbfDae_y08pkxLE4F6KvFT5bFMzqvbWGTBTmLetlszGSVEmGPl0aAn4REALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
for $244 or

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=1FT-000B-000D4&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Video+Cards+-+AMD/ATI-_-1FT-000B-000D4&gclid=Cj0KCQiA37HhBRC8ARIsAPWoO0w36ikVzo9Scr6bK9hbHi8PviLPYKYG-VxHKyLULLudHvDTCSwgEj4aAr9-EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
for $209
 

h9826790

macrumors G5
Apr 3, 2014
12,799
5,620
Hong Kong
Ok I ran the aja system light test and got this

View attachment 813673


I noticed the target was the old ssd but I ran it anyway.

Next I tried to switch to the 970pro and it wouldn't let me. I got this

View attachment 813674

I did select the 970 pro as the startup disk, but it seems to default to the old startup.

View attachment 813675


I got suspicious and pulled out the old ssd so it could only boot from the 970pro as the only choice and got the folder icon with the flashing ? mark

So for some reason it won't boot from the 970pro
Looks like you didn't enable TRIM, which lowered the write performance a lot.

No matter SATA or NVMe, you better enable TRIM whenever possible.