thedude110 said:
some pretty accurate imitation...
McCafferty: Finally, four major department stores and 170 specialty shops later, ....
Viswanathan: Five department stores, and 170 specialty shops later, ....
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Did writer steal or not? You choose!
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some pretty accurate imitation...
McCafferty: Finally, four major department stores and 170 specialty shops later, ....
Viswanathan: Five department stores, and 170 specialty shops later, ....
madoka said:
When I was an undergrad, several professors told me about a program they used (can't remember the name offhand) that could compare an essay against a wide selection of previously submitted and published works, and would [near] instantly point out any instances of copying.
Don't panic said:
Perhaps you missed my post earlier in the thread in which I said Viswanathan "Stole it. Consciously."?
Yet when we're dealing with a 17 year old who's learning how to write (and how to string together a novel), yeah, that's imitation.
She saw something she liked, she pretended to be it. In this act of imitation, she stole it.
Welcome to the writing process.
CorvusCamenarum said:
www.turnitin.com
My former employer used it -- the software determines every document is x percentage plagiarized. No paper from our admittedly undereducated 18 year olds every came back under 25%!
This is ultimately the problem with intellectual property isn't it? You can't "own" a vague concept, as thousands of people are likely to have had the same one.
On the other hand, it's incredibly frustrating when someone blatantly copies your work without even acknowledging it. The line between the two is very grey and fuzzy.
Then it's important to acknowledge the role predecessors have had in our work, even if we didn't specifically copy them. How many fantasy novelists would there be today, if it weren't for writers like Tolkein. How many programmers would there be, if our predecessors hadn't starting messing around with transistors and vacuum tubes.
That's why I've always like the quote:
"A hundred times every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life depends on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that I must exert myself in order to give in the measure as I have received and am still receiving" - whooleytoo*
(* only kidding - Albert Einstein)
On the other hand, it's incredibly frustrating when someone blatantly copies your work without even acknowledging it. The line between the two is very grey and fuzzy.
Then it's important to acknowledge the role predecessors have had in our work, even if we didn't specifically copy them. How many fantasy novelists would there be today, if it weren't for writers like Tolkein. How many programmers would there be, if our predecessors hadn't starting messing around with transistors and vacuum tubes.
That's why I've always like the quote:
"A hundred times every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life depends on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that I must exert myself in order to give in the measure as I have received and am still receiving" - whooleytoo*
(* only kidding - Albert Einstein)
I write computer programs for a living, and one of our guiding principles is to reuse code whenever possible. That includes all code written by others that is public domain or that we already own. And some we buy. If we reinvent the wheel, we're wasting company resources (namely us programmers).
Quite a contrast to the world of publishing.
Quite a contrast to the world of publishing.
JFreak said:
I'm sure I don't understand this remark. Are you saying that appropriation is form of creativity?
IJ Reilly said:
I don't know if our Finnish friend would agree, but I would say absolutely.
Thus collage, right?
The drama isn't over... now they found another author she took from: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060502/ap_en_ot/young_author
I don't see a contrast. I think that authors are encouraged (by friends, family, teachers, publishers, money, etc) to emulate the styles of other greats while developing their own twist.Doctor Q said:
I don't think I would have been bothered if she had used something from the public domain and made it modern/whatever she would have done. I would have gotten a kick if she had reprinted her own, older, works and had gotten press praising "fresh ideas."
I assume you are not encouraged to take private code and call it your own. I think if I were to cut and paste the Windows code and change a few variable names and call it Shutters or CoolTime OS, I would be just as harangued as she has been. Even worse in her case, is that she had the gall to copy less well known writers and claim it as her own. Speaking of which, I have a new program from sale. It is called Sailing Flicker. It lets you use your BT phone to control your computer. Pay no attention to the code behind the curtain...
princealfie said:The drama isn't over... now they found another author she took from: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060502/ap_en_ot/young_author
If this is true, I take back a lot of what I have said.
Would someone please find Dan Brown guilty of plagiarizing himself? All of his books use the exact same plot twists. After the first three, I refuse to read The Da Vinci Code for fear of being bored.
I remember an "Unplugged" kind of show with Billy Joel a while back. Someone in the audience asked if he ever found himself plagiarizing. His reply was, "All the time." He went on to tell about playing a "new" song for the band and was a little surprised when they said, "You idiot. That's [I don't remember what song it was]."
I remember an "Unplugged" kind of show with Billy Joel a while back. Someone in the audience asked if he ever found himself plagiarizing. His reply was, "All the time." He went on to tell about playing a "new" song for the band and was a little surprised when they said, "You idiot. That's [I don't remember what song it was]."
nbs2 said:I don't see a contrast. I think that authors are encouraged (by friends, family, teachers, publishers, money, etc) to emulate the styles of other greats while developing their own twist.
I don't think I would have been bothered if she had used something from the public domain and made it modern/whatever she would have done. I would have gotten a kick if she had reprinted her own, older, works and had gotten press praising "fresh ideas."
I assume you are not encouraged to take private code and call it your own. I think if I were to cut and paste the Windows code and change a few variable names and call it Shutters or CoolTime OS, I would be just as harangued as she has been. Even worse in her case, is that she had the gall to copy less well known writers and claim it as her own. Speaking of which, I have a new program from sale. It is called Sailing Flicker. It lets you use your BT phone to control your computer. Pay no attention to the code behind the curtain...
Just FYI... variable names in code are insignificant. In fact, programs that decompile code don't use the same variable names the coder used (unless the coder uses the same naming conventions) because the original variable names are just that insignificant. In any case, just changing them would definitely be a blatant plagerism of intellectual property--more so than what this writer did, I think.
That's the problem - I think that this is what the writer did. Although I guess some of the filler in the might be a little different, but as a whole I don't see a difference between just changing variable names and what happened here. I think what I'm saying, and others as well, is that they are not distinct issues. The facts of the situation don't change based on what she decides to confess or not.50 points if you can spot the plagiarismfloriflee said:Just FYI... variable names in code are insignificant. In fact, programs that decompile code don't use the same variable names the coder used (unless the coder uses the same naming conventions) because the original variable names are just that insignificant. In any case, just changing them would definitely be a blatant plagerism of intellectual property--more so than what this writer did, I think.
nbs2 said:
Here's my problem with this line of reasoning: Its difficult to say whether this woman intentionally plagarized the passages. She is an inexperienced author and a first-time novelist. She is still very young and still working on developing her own voice and rhythm. She is probably also very well read.) It probably did not occur to her that she was plagerizing someone elses work. I know I have read tens of thousands of books in my short lifetime and when I write and I have to conciously work to ensure that its my voice being heard. As an inexperienced writer, she probably has not been explicitly taught that. Remember, she wrote this before going to college. Before that it was just HS. The examples given of other, much more experienced authors that have been caught and held up as reasons whey she should be vilified is somewhat flawed because these are authors who should know when its their voice in the writing vs. someone elses. I admit there are a lot of probablies in this reasoning and she may have intentionally pulled whole passages from Anne's books. But I really think that she deserves the benefit of the doubt.
Again for those still thinking of defending her saying that it was unintentional or she possibly couldn't be STUPID enough to try something like this:
Fact #1:
Prior to this discovery, she was asked in a recent interview with The Star-Ledger in Newark, N.J. about books that might have influenced her novel. Nothing I read gave me the inspiration, she responded.
Fact #2:
When The (Harvard) Crimson reached Viswanathan on her cell phone Saturday night (again, before the controversy started) and informed her of the similarities between Opal Mehta and Sloppy Firsts, the sophomore said, No comment. I have no idea what you are talking about.
Fact #3:
So now she confesses that she "unintentionally" copied from others.
So how is it that she could have near perfect memory to recite from these other books, yet couldn't recall them at all before she was caught.
If she had confessed, it would have caused a scandal, but at least she told the truth. Now, I think Harvard should go ahead and expel her not just for the plagiarism, but for the continuing fraudulant coverup. As a Harvard Dean put it, "We expect Harvard students to conduct themselves with integrity and honesty at all times.
Fact #1:
Prior to this discovery, she was asked in a recent interview with The Star-Ledger in Newark, N.J. about books that might have influenced her novel. Nothing I read gave me the inspiration, she responded.
Fact #2:
When The (Harvard) Crimson reached Viswanathan on her cell phone Saturday night (again, before the controversy started) and informed her of the similarities between Opal Mehta and Sloppy Firsts, the sophomore said, No comment. I have no idea what you are talking about.
Fact #3:
So now she confesses that she "unintentionally" copied from others.
So how is it that she could have near perfect memory to recite from these other books, yet couldn't recall them at all before she was caught.
If she had confessed, it would have caused a scandal, but at least she told the truth. Now, I think Harvard should go ahead and expel her not just for the plagiarism, but for the continuing fraudulant coverup. As a Harvard Dean put it, "We expect Harvard students to conduct themselves with integrity and honesty at all times.
asphalt-proof said:
My problem with this line of reasoning is that she already admitted that Megan McCafferty is one of her favorite authors, so the similarities between her book and the Megan McCafferty books can hardly be called coincidental.
Let's not forget, we're talking about genre fiction here. The publisher was looking for the next big name in chick-lit, which is like one step up from romance novels. I think they looked a little to hard and scrutinized far too little. The publisher deserves much of the blame for this mess.
IJ Reilly said:
I definately agree with you last statement: As noted, this is genre lit and so the publisher SHOULD have been able to easily compare or least recognize the similarities, especially after 40+ passages. Methinks that the publisher may be more culpable than letting on. THey did give her a half million dollars advance. THey were banking on a big hit based upon past sales of Meg's work and others like it. Whatif they realized the steals but went ahead anyway. (after all, they are $500,000 in the hole without it reaching an outlet yet).
THe reason I give her (the writer... please don't make me writer her name with my carpal tunnel.) such leeway is that this being genre lit, so much is stolen (borrowed) anyway with the genre. Think westerns genre and it would be hard to tell the voice of one author from Louis Lamour. Plots are very similar, sometimes names, and even phrasing.
I have a hard time believing that the publisher would willfully ignore her level of cheating. I think that they are culpable because they were negligent in checking her work, but she bears the ultimate burden for what she has done. When you screw up, your boss gets in trouble, but you get the axe.asphalt-proof said:
And, while I think that plots may be similar at an overarching level (rich girl falls in love with poor boy, rich betrothed boy and both families keep them apart, girl is saved by poor boy while rich boy would let her drown, they live happily ever after - I just made that up in five minutes, but I'm sure someone has used it) and there are only so many names (but virtually infinite combinations), I have a hard time believing that "phrasing is too limited." that is like saying everything that can be invented, has been invented. If she doesn't feel comfortable writing her own works, she needs to tell her boss. If she has no ideas, she needs to tell her boss. If she can't handle her job, she needs to tell her boss. There is never an excuse to copy, it is especially bad if it is someone in your profession. If this had been an academic paper, what would have happened?
We need to get Viswanathan on the Oprah show to sort out all these issues. As we all know, that's the only way to get at the real truth with authors.