Digital Morality & the Family Pack

[jim.]

I think the original poster brings up an interesting question of morality. We all have or views on the law and are experiences with software. But what about the question of how easy it is to steal in this digital world. Most people would never go into a store and steal physical items, yet many people have no problem stealing digital versions or copyrighted works. I think this is really interesting. I know so many teenagers that have hard drives filed with stolen music and if you were to sneak into there room and steal their computer they would be screaming about how they were riped off with no sense of the hypocracy. People seem to place a higher value on physical items over intellectual property. Maybe it's a question of getting caught. Maybe the the only thing that keeps most people from stealing is the fear of being caught. People feel they would be caught stealing from a store but never in the digital realm.

Yes it is fascinating. I think in addition to the reasons you give is that the law hasn't quite figured out how to deal with digital IP yet either. Instead of addressing the issue head on, legislation is currently getting pushed through to throw up walls around the issue. I'm still trying to make sense out of why this is the case.

CanadaRAM corrected me that it isn't a fair use issue as it is so prone to be characterized. The only other loophole I see is that it is hard to put value on something intangible as digital products. One would think that the law would be able to handle abstract thought

Jim

 

[mac-er]

Why is it that at least once a month there is a similar thread to this one? "Should I steal this?" "Is this Legal?"

Pardon me, but who the hell cares? If you install software on your Mac you do not own, keep it to yourself. If you have opinions about people that install software they do not own keep it to yourself!

If you are a regular forum contributor, you know what the answer is going to be here: I've said it before and I will say it again: many MacRumors members are younger, inexperienced and generally unaware hyper-boy scouts. What is surprising is that at their age you think they would encourage "anti-establishment" practices such as sharing software: but they don't. I believe it may be caused by the fact many of them have never gotten laid or have no life outside their high school computer labs and their home Mac set-ups. Or the fact that Mummy and Daddy but their damn gear and software. Wait a few years you young dorks. When you have to decide between paying the electric bill or buying iLife, then you will understand. They are the most annoying, preachy, bitchy goody-goods I've ever read posts from. And during the summer, when they're out of school–forget it, their post counts sky-rocket. I joined MacRumors and read often-but I must say that I do not participate as much as I would like because of the teenage sietz-im-liebe around here at times.

Do I "steal" software? None of your damn business. Do you? I don't give a damn.

I love Apple's products and I will keep purchasing them as long as they are the best value for the money. I think we all do a good job of this: last time I checked Steve and the shareholders are doing just fine.

Someone has a guilty conscience.

 

[Balin64]

mac -er:

How simplistic.

We come to this site because we love Macs and Apple products.

Very clever you are...

making a US military anaolgy. Let us drop it altogether.

I just ordered a new 15 alBook.

See? It all works out. Apple may be losing some sales but they ultimately have the hook in our mouths.

A choice, mind you.

Cheers.

 

[tveric]

Someone has a guilty conscience.

Please. I agree with the guy that you accuse of having a "guilty conscience", and here's the truth - I could not be FURTHER from having a guilty conscience. And here's why.

Let's say there are 500,000 people with 2 or more Macs in their homes. And let's say 200,000 of them choose to buy the Family Pack of Panther/Tiger/iLife, whatever, and 300,000 don't.

Now I'm looking at the situation and saying, hmmmm, Apple (and a lot of users here, of course) say it's stealing if I don't buy the family pack for my G5 and my laptop (if I had those 2 things, hypothetically). The 200,000 people doing so are certainly contributing more money to Apple and their shareholders, and following the law. However, the 300,000 that aren't doing that are never going to get caught, and they save money, and Apple sure isn't going to go out of business if they continue to do so.

Now, if EVERYONE stole ALL their Apple software, of course Apple would go out of business, and quickly, too. But the simple reality is, that's not what's happening.

So speaking hypothetically, if I were in that situation, I would have to say to myself, since there's no consequence to either decision, do I join the 200,000 that are paying extra, or do I join the 300,000 that are getting away paying less?

Completely hypothetically, I would probably say, why would I join the suckers?

 

[Duff-Man]

Completely hypothetically, I would probably say, why would I join the suckers?

Duff-Man says....As one that *does* follow license agreements and buys the family packs for my software, I somewhat resent being characterized as a "sucker" just because I follow the rules. It is those that do not follow the agreements that potentially could spoil it for us "suckers." My bottom line is - the agreements are written for a reason and they do not write them while sitting around slugging back a few beers - I have said it before and again I have to repeat - Apple knows piracy and agreement violations happen...but they have limits as to how much of this they will tolerate...if it gets too far out of hand you can bet we will see activation codes and serial numbers etc etc.....and I certainly do not want that. So quit your lame excuses...pay for what you use, abide by the agreements, it is not that difficult and Applke has been very generous in their Family Pack arrangement....oh yeah!

 

[Bear]

...
Completely hypothetically, I would probably say, why would I join the suckers?

Your hypothetical answer is either you pay now for the proper licensing for the software you use or the prices will increase as well as license keys and stuff being used.

And truthfully the price for the family packs are only a reasonable increment over the single license pack.

And remember some other software (some Adobe applications for instance) have a license that allows you to use it on a desktop and a laptop used primarily by the same person. So read your licenses so you know what is legal, you may be pleasantly surprised on some software.

 

[devman]

However, the 300,000 that aren't doing that are never going to get caught, and they save money, and Apple sure isn't going to go out of business if they continue to do so.

So speaking hypothetically, if I were in that situation, I would have to say to myself, since there's no consequence to either decision, do I join the 200,000 that are paying extra, or do I join the 300,000 that are getting away paying less?

Completely hypothetically, I would probably say, why would I join the suckers?

But there are consequences. It's way too simplistic to rationalise this as "if Apple won't go out of business" then it doesn't matter.

They make less money than if you did the right thing - in fact it's not even just the right thing it's also the legal thing. Less money means less money (yeah, read it again) and that means less of all the things they can do with money (like innovate and improve and grow).

It seems you mean consequences as in no legal consequences to you as you don't get caught. Ok, that's a potential lack of direct consequences. There are certainly indirect consequences to you by depriving your preferred supplier of revenue.

I choose to support my preferred supplier. It's very important to me that Apple survive (yeah and even grow!) because they are the best game in town (and it's not even a close contest IMHO).

I buy discrete licenses for my PB and my PM because I use them for my business. I buy the family pack for my wife and 2 kids machines. I buy four .mac subscriptions.

I do not see my considered choice to act the way I do as being a sucker. I do see someone that does the wrong thing and thinks there are no (indirect) consequences as being a sucker.

 

[iindigo]

But there are consequences. It's way too simplistic to rationalise this as "if Apple won't go out of business" then it doesn't matter.

They make less money than if you did the right thing - in fact it's not even just the right thing it's also the legal thing. Less money means less money (yeah, read it again) and that means less of all the things they can do with money (like innovate and improve and grow).

It seems you mean consequences as in no legal consequences to you as you don't get caught. Ok, that's a potential lack of direct consequences. There are certainly indirect consequences to you by depriving your preferred supplier of revenue.

I choose to support my preferred supplier. It's very important to me that Apple survive (yeah and even grow!) because they are the best game in town (and it's not even a close contest IMHO).

I buy discrete licenses for my PB and my PM because I use them for my business. I buy the family pack for my wife and 2 kids machines. I buy four .mac subscriptions.

I do not see my considered choice to act the way I do as being a sucker. I do see someone that does the wrong thing and thinks there are no (indirect) consequences as being a sucker.

Yeah, that might be easy for you to say, but I'm a teenager and only make a freakin' $500 per month. I have to spend every dime and nickel pretty carefully in order to get it to strectch. As I said earlier, I have other things I need to spend that extra $20 on.

 

[Bear]

Yeah, that might be easy for you to say, but I'm a teenager and only make a freakin' $500 per month. I have to spend every dime and nickel pretty carefully in order to get it to strectch. As I said earlier, I have other things I need to spend that extra $20 on.

Well two choices... the first is to suffer without something. The second (less ethical, but better than nothing) is to start doing the right thing once you start making more money.

And remember that's not $20 a month. That probably works out to less than $2 a month when you consider it over a year

 

[tveric]

Duff-Man says....As one that *does* follow license agreements and buys the family packs for my software, I somewhat resent being characterized as a "sucker" just because I follow the rules. It is those that do not follow the agreements that potentially could spoil it for us "suckers." My bottom line is - the agreements are written for a reason and they do not write them while sitting around slugging back a few beers - I have said it before and again I have to repeat - Apple knows piracy and agreement violations happen...but they have limits as to how much of this they will tolerate...if it gets too far out of hand you can bet we will see activation codes and serial numbers etc etc.....and I certainly do not want that. So quit your lame excuses...pay for what you use, abide by the agreements, it is not that difficult and Applke has been very generous in their Family Pack arrangement....oh yeah!

It's really hard to take an argument seriously when it comes from an adult that takes on the persona of a character from an animated TV show. And especially one that seems to relish taking on said persona OH so much.

 

[Balin64]

Well two choices... the first is to suffer without something. The second (less ethical, but better than nothing) is to start doing the right thing once you start making more money.

You are so correct. I am a fair person and treat others (companies included) as such. I never said I condone piracy, I may or may not do it myself: but I will certaintly will not impose my computing ethics on others. We live in a Capitalistic society: we know what happens if we stop spending... the house of cards comes tumbling down.

Pay for software: people work hard to produce it.

Have an idea that can only be implemented on software you cannot afford? Borrow it until you can. And when you can afford it, PAY FOR IT.

It's that simple. Let's move on...

 

[kettle]

I joined MacRumors and read often-but I must say that I do not participate as much as I would like because of the teenage sietz-im-liebe around here at times.

Do I "steal" software? None of your damn business. Do you? I don't give a damn.

Well said.
Real life isn't summer camp with the Junior Spies

 

[Rod Rod]

Pay for software: people work hard to produce it.

Have an idea that can only be implemented on software you cannot afford? Borrow it until you can. And when you can afford it, PAY FOR IT.

. . . and when you're making money using the tools, you're left with no excuse to keep freeloading.

 

[Eastend]

Usually I do buy all of my software, but I also have copied and it's no confession I can assure everyone. There is no guilt, you will have to remember that the people who make these toys are all mostly in the top 700 Rich club of the world. Steve Jobs number 190 something, Gates number 1, even Dell is 18 or so. These guys can trade in their private jets better than I can trade in my car. So please get off the guilt thing. I would never steal anything from any of them, but if I were in a postion with no funds and needed a software set, well, probably I'd copy one, do you think that might hurt Jobs payment on his jet? (If one of their jets blew up with no one hurt of course, it would be easier for them to replace their jet than for me to replace a flat tire on my car, make it about a dozen jets equals my flat tire.)

Brian

 

[Rod Rod]

Usually I do buy all of my software, but I also have copied and it's no confession I can assure everyone. There is no guilt, you will have to remember that the people who make these toys are all mostly in the top 700 Rich club of the world. Steve Jobs number 190 something, Gates number 1, even Dell is 18 or so. These guys can trade in their private jets better than I can trade in my car. So please get off the guilt thing. I would never steal anything from any of them, but if I were in a postion with no funds and needed a software set, well, probably I'd copy one, do you think that might hurt Jobs payment on his jet? (If one of their jets blew up with no one hurt of course, it would be easier for them to replace their jet than for me to replace a flat tire on my car, make it about a dozen jets equals my flat tire.)

Brian

Apparently you're under the impression that these big companies are operated solely by their top executives.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of ordinary people working in marketing, distribution, manufacturing (which is not all outsourced out of country, btw), design, programming and all sorts of other funtions related to getting Apple hardware and software to the customer. A lot of those people aren't far from your financial situation and they depend on their jobs to pay for their flat tires.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

I am not proud to admit this, especially since I love Apple so much, but I never buy the family pack for Apple products despite installing them on multiple machines I own. In fact, when one of my friends bought a family pack for Panther, I thought to myself, "why would he waste money like that?"

It's funny to think about, the new morals of the digital age. I am not a poor college student, and I have the money. I never give Apple software to other people since I want Apple to see the revenue. If asked for Apple software from a buddy, I lecture them and tell them to buy it themselves.

(And with that said, I have no problem giving someone a copy of Office since I hate that company so much and find them grossly unethical and deserving of the type of ethics they exhibit in the marketplace.)

But I know it is wrong, and I know it is illegal. Yet, I just feel that buying one copy is support enough despite the license agreement, and despite how much I enjoy supporting Apple. Hell, to make it worse, I am a shareholder.

So what gives? It's not about the money. iLife family pack is 20 bucks more. Tiger's family pack is $70 more. Not going to break the bank.

And it's not that I download Apple software off of P2P networks. I would never do that. That I consider stealing.

But I have no problem buying Tiger or iLife and installing it on four Macs. And I know I should not. I know this too is stealing.

Finally, to make matters worse, one of the things I love about the Mac is there is no OS or software authentication which is tied to the hardware. As a consumer, I should be rewarding the behavior I value. I should be voting with my wallet.

Anyone else out there behave the same way? And, before anyone replies with a lecture, understand I know it is wrong and illegal, and always pay for the primary copy. Always. It's just that I treat all software as if it is a family pack, despite the license agreement.

Am I alone in this Modern Morality? Am I over-thinking this, or is it time to grow up and act like a responsible Apple supporter and shareholder?

No, while they are paying their workers the least amount they can and moving to China and rewarding its allready overpaid brass with millions more and then wanting you to buy a copy of the OS for every member or computer in your family? Please! i have no problems with throwing my property that i bought onto another machine that i also bought from Apple. GREED! Apples brass are all millionaires and billionaires and Apple has Billions in the bank but i guess its never enough for this lower class of people that run most of these corporations. Greedy greedy greedy.

 

[CanadaRAM]

Personally, I don't buy the family packs, mainly since I hate the way commercial licensing is set up these days... What ever happened to the idea that when you paid money for something, you owned it?

The idea of outright ownership has never existed, at least for software. It's a fantasy.

You never own the intellectual property, you only purchase a right to use it under the restrictions of the license that you agree to.

 

[CanadaRAM]

No, while they are paying their workers the least amount they can and moving to China and rewarding its allready overpaid brass with millions more and then wanting you to buy a copy of the OS for every member or computer in your family? Please! i have no problems with throwing my property that i bought onto another machine that i also bought from Apple. GREED! Apples brass are all millionaires and billionaires and Apple has Billions in the bank but i guess its never enough for this lower class of people that run most of these corporations. Greedy greedy greedy.

Ah, the old "They are too rich / immoral / unethical so it's justifiable to steal from them" argument. There should be an acronym for this to save time and space: how about

IOTSFGRB - "It's OK to steal from greedy rich b@stards"

Problem is, you never know when someone is going to define YOU as a GRB (according to them) and jack your car... But that would be OK by your definition.

 

[Eastend]

Apparently you're under the impression that these big companies are operated solely by their top executives.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of ordinary people working in marketing, distribution, manufacturing (which is not all outsourced out of country, btw), design, programming and all sorts of other funtions related to getting Apple hardware and software to the customer. A lot of those people aren't far from your financial situation and they depend on their jobs to pay for their flat tires.

Hey Rod, their companies can afford to have thousands of employees, and pay stock dividends to executives that are in the millions of dollars. You are only backing up what I already said. Oh, it's not millions of dollars Rod, some of these executives are raking in 100's of millions, I cannot even imagine it. If there employees are poor, it's because the executives are too busy raking in the cash to pay them any salary. Take a look at who owns stock in apple, the top people are all executives are connected with Apple computer. Get real, that is real business, it's called making money. I run a business Rod, that's what I try to do on a much smaller scale. People copy my products all the time Rod, but I am too small to do anything about it. Apple, Microsoft and all large companies have more lawyers than I have employees, they can sue you anytime they want, they will not always win, but they do have the clout. I have never felt sorry for IBM, Microsoft, or any large corporation. It's not to say that I may not admire some of the products they make, but I do not feel sorry for any large conglomerate. Ths has been a prepaid message and I will now climb down from my soap box.
Getting so people are afraid to state their opinion out of fear of being sued for what's inside ones head.

Brian

 

[CanadaRAM]

Apple (and a lot of users here, of course) say it's stealing if I don't buy the family pack for my G5 and my laptop (if I had those 2 things, hypothetically). The 200,000 people doing so are certainly contributing more money to Apple and their shareholders, and following the law. However, the 300,000 that aren't doing that are never going to get caught, and they save money, and Apple sure isn't going to go out of business if they continue to do so.

Now, if EVERYONE stole ALL their Apple software, of course Apple would go out of business, and quickly, too. But the simple reality is, that's not what's happening.

So speaking hypothetically, if I were in that situation, I would have to say to myself, since there's no consequence to either decision, do I join the 200,000 that are paying extra, or do I join the 300,000 that are getting away paying less?

Completely hypothetically, I would probably say, why would I join the suckers?

Oh boy two more good ones. Acronym proposals everyone:

TNCOBC = "There's no chance of being caught" therefore lower the gangplank and prepare for boarding, mateys!

LAFSS, BIAW = "Laws are for stupid sheep, but I'm a Wolf" - there are enough people following the rules - because I am special I am entitled to break them.

The corollary to this one of course, because it depends on a critcal mass of honest but stupid sheep to keep the ship afloat is:

BIAS, YMPMW: "Because I am special, you must pay my way" - I am so{superior / disadvantaged} (take your pick, there are two variants), therefore I am entitled to have the rest of you pay for the finer things in my life.

 

[kingcrowing]

I've read some stuff about people snatching Tiger developer versions and seeding them out to the public... this made apple VERY mad, but apparently some sites in China etc. we able to seed them legaly (illegal to DL, but legal for them to seed) but my point is this, while reading about it i learned that (as many people know) apple makes its money (by a landslide) from hardware, NOT software, they would love it if everyone got family packs and second copies, but they know it dosen't work that way, thats why they build awesome systems that they can charge a decent amount on. Apple dosen't prosecute people who bootleg their software (OS X & iLife esp...) because it's a waste of their time, they know that if someone gets some old system, DLs os X, eventually they'll buy a new system, or get a legit copy, with Msoft it's diff because all they do is software, but they make SO much money from business' (who never bootleg software) that even if every citizen who used a PC bootlegs the OS, they'd still make $$, but then you still have all the OEMs who put it on

 

[mkaake]

Oh boy two more good ones. Acronym proposals everyone:

TNCOBC = "There's no chance of being caught" therefore lower the gangplank and prepare for boarding, mateys!

LAFSS, BIAW = "Laws are for stupid sheep, but I'm a Wolf" - there are enough people following the rules - because I am special I am entitled to break them.

The corollary to this one of course, because it depends on a critcal mass of honest but stupid sheep to keep the ship afloat is:

BIAS, YMPMW: "Because I am special, you must pay my way" - I am so{superior / disadvantaged} (take your pick, there are two variants), therefore I am entitled to have the rest of you pay for the finer things in my life.

LOL. I've never seen MR thoughts summed up so nicely.

Part of me can't believe the arguments that I'm reading here. The other part of me knows that I've met too many people who think that way to not believe it. It usually boils down to...

1. it's the law, but i don't like it, so it doesn't apply.
2. they're rich, i'm costing them like .000034% of their wealth. besides, it's not going to make them go out of business.

Right folks. Those are all ways of rationalizing something that's illegal. you can candy coat is as much as you want, make it sound as noble as you want, make the software developers sound as greedy as you want, make yourself sound as poor as you want, but it all boils down to this: it's illegal.

if you're poor and can't afford it, you *go without*. it's this amazing thing, where you go without something that you can't obtain legally. and when you do eventually save up the money for it, you have this wonderful sense of accomplishment, which I'm prolly gonna get flamed for even mentioning.

by the reasoning of some on this board, you would be okay with stealing imacs from an apple store (of course, in your mind this is different, because it's physical hardware, and it's just different). assuming no-one's life was in danger, there's not too much difference (though I'm sure someone, in an effort to make themselves feel justified for ripping off a software developer, will get all pissy and flame me for saying it) between the two.

people here never cease to amaze me. i still remember the first time i argued about this on these forums... not only did I get a handful of PM's telling me what a *&($*&$# I was, but I came out with this wonderful quote from hector, if memory serves...

I know it's illegal, but I'm going to do it anyway

ahh, what a way to sum it up. those of you who don't pay for software (or don't purchase the appropriate license) know that what you're doing is illegal, but you try to spin it off as harmless.

 

[mkaake]

So speaking hypothetically, if I were in that situation, I would have to say to myself, since there's no consequence to either decision,

wow. see, if I did that, my conscience would kick in, and that would be my consequence. yikes. can't imagine living like that.

oh, and for those of you who don't know what a conscience is,

Main Entry: con·science
Pronunciation: 'kän(t)-sh&n(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin conscientia, from conscient-, consciens, present participle of conscire to be conscious, be conscious of guilt, from com- + scire to know -- more at SCIENCE
1 a : the sense or consciousness of the moral goodness or blameworthiness of one's own conduct, intentions, or character together with a feeling of obligation to do right or be good

 

[lssmit02]

Mix tapes are copying however, P2P is copying, burned CDs are copying, taking the original CD and installing it on more then the number of computers pemitted by the license is copying. Borrowing a library book is not copying.

Just for the record, making mix tapes (or mix CDs for that matter) for home use is not illegal. Under the Audio Home Recording Act, you cannot be held liable for infringement for any copies you make of audio recordings for non-commercial use. Share with your friends to your heart's content.

Here's the language in the Copyright Act.
"No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings." 17 U.S.C. § 1008

 

[Phobophobia]

Duff-Man says....As one that *does* follow license agreements and buys the family packs for my software, I somewhat resent being characterized as a "sucker" just because I follow the rules. It is those that do not follow the agreements that potentially could spoil it for us "suckers." My bottom line is - the agreements are written for a reason and they do not write them while sitting around slugging back a few beers - I have said it before and again I have to repeat - Apple knows piracy and agreement violations happen...but they have limits as to how much of this they will tolerate...if it gets too far out of hand you can bet we will see activation codes and serial numbers etc etc.....and I certainly do not want that. So quit your lame excuses...pay for what you use, abide by the agreements, it is not that difficult and Applke has been very generous in their Family Pack arrangement....oh yeah!

Right on. I have pirated software before, and I am making a conscious effort to get rid of all of the illegal software. It's really not worth the feeling of guilt. Stealing intellectual property IS stealing, and being an Apple shareholder I feel bad about it anyway.