Digital Performer 6

Discussion in 'Digital Audio' started by junior, Jun 21, 2008.

  1. junior macrumors 6502a

    junior

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2003
    #1
    So, it's out (for pre-order!). The new features look fantastic and it seems to be easier to use than it's ever been before.
    Although I predominantly use PTHD, I've been using Logic8 as of late for VIs and outboard synths before exporting to PT for edit and mix.
    Reading about DP6 though has really made me think about going back to the motu world for the first time in about 4 years.
    The integration with Final Cut looks wonderful, though useless for me because most of my clients still use AVID. But it will definitely be worth it for some.
    Plugin compatibility is great as usual, with AU, MAS, and TDM all working.


    What's everyone's take on this new, very much improved DAW?

    Linky
     
  2. Duff-Man macrumors 68030

    Duff-Man

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    Dec 26, 2002
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    #2
    Duff-Man says....I am still on v4.6 but will probably upgrade this time - looking pretty attractive. I've considered crossgrading to Logic too though...just have not made a decision yet...oh yeah!
     
  3. 3rdpath macrumors 68000

    3rdpath

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    Location:
    2nd star on the right and straight till morning
    #3
    i'll certainly be upgrading from dp5. after dp6 gets a few updates. i never buy any software ending with ".0".

    the features look fantastic...saw a nice demo at the namm show.
     
  4. Elektroakoustik macrumors member

    Elektroakoustik

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2008
    #4
    My upgrade is currently on order. I'm going to install it separately from DP5 (so I can still do projects if DP6 has any issues) but I'm super excited about it. The new user interface looks awesome. As do the new Final Cut compatibility, the new proverb and leveler, and all the other new enhancements! I'll post a quick first thoughts once I get my copy!
     
  5. junior thread starter macrumors 6502a

    junior

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    Mar 25, 2003
    #5
    Looking forward to it!
     
  6. midiac macrumors newbie

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    Jul 1, 2008
    Location:
    Near Los Angeles
    #6
    Heck Yeah!!!

    I'd been checking their site EVERY DAY for the past couple months! I made my pre-order the 1st day, then realized it was a PRE-order! :mad: Does anybody have any information on when this will be shipping??? :confused:

    Key Features I'm personally looking forward to:
    - No more freezing of VIs to include in bounces
    - Plug-ins manager
    - Proverb
    - Comping
    - New UI
    - XML support

    DP has always been my choice for music, ProTools for post audio. Anyone who haven't switched from Avid to FCP are foolish. Get with the NEW standard people. Get with the times! DP never installs over previous versions, so you are always safe if you need to go back and use earlier version for whatever reason if you absolutely need to. I've always been an early adopter, and never regretted it.
    :apple:Rules!
     
  7. Duff-Man macrumors 68030

    Duff-Man

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    #7

    Duff-Man says...I think it actually starts shipping in another 2 or 3 weeks from now, at least that is the answer someone got from MotU over at Unicornation (a site I would highly recommend you join if you are not already a member)....oh yeah!
     
  8. junior thread starter macrumors 6502a

    junior

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2003
    #8

    Well, no. It's all about the $$$.
    A film production company making a TV ad, having imported everything from the Telecine process:

    a) Fires up the session in FCP in their office and completes the offline.
    b) Rents out a good editing suite with an Avid system.

    Which do you think they can charge more to their clients for?
    Hell, we can also talk about the company renting the editing suite out. How much could they realistically charge the production company if the same room only consisted of FCP, a product that can be bought by most amateurs.


    It's also one of the reasons music studios without a big console will often choose a PTHD rig over other DAWs. More costs for equipment will give you a much better backbone for your hourly charge.

    Perhaps they SHOULD be using FCP, but I doubt that will be the case any time soon.
    Same with Inferno/Flame/Smoke vs Shake.
     
  9. midiac macrumors newbie

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    Near Los Angeles
    #9
    Good points, now I feel foolish. :D
    FCP + DP combo does rock regardless :)
     
  10. dLight macrumors member

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    Mar 11, 2008
    #10
    Since I stopped using Digidesign's (Avid's) Pro Tools HD systems and went totally native, my rates have not gone down. On the contrary, I've gotten work I didn't get before because my projects are now compatible with my clients' rigs (clients normally never have TDM systems or Avid hardware). I got $20,000 for the last album I mixed, and wouldn't have gotten 1$ more if I had different hardware.

    According to this link, "Apple took 49% of the US professional editing marketing with Avid trailing on just 22%" in 2007 - and the same change we've seen in the pro video market is already about to happen in the pro audio market.

    Not that numbers from the stock market tells the whole story, but they sometimes give a very relevant hint about the direction of things:

    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=AAPL&t=5y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=avid
     
  11. junior thread starter macrumors 6502a

    junior

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2003
    #11
    When you say you went totally native, what software are you now using, and what equipment did you use?
    You must be one of the hottest engineers out there to get $20,000 for a mixing job. Hell, my music production fees in the ad business hardly reaches that amount these days.
     
  12. dLight macrumors member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2008
    #12
    Mixing often includes an amount of editing, especially if people with not enough experience already have tried to work an the song before you receive it, but this job involved a higher amount if editing than what's considered 'normal'.

    I used Logic Pro with a few additional plugins - but it wasn't only mixing, the job probably included as much editing as mixing, since I needed to make an album out of material that was recorded in various studios/on location - sometimes with terrific sounding material, other times recorded with mediocre equipment, too few takes, and also not-very-successful attempts at cutting/pasting various existing takes into a convincing result.

    The album had 14 songs, which means circa $1500 per song. You don't need to be one of the hottest engineers to take $750 for editing a song and $750 for mixing it...

    If these people would have been as good at recording and editing as they are at playing (read: if the material was ready to mix when I received it), I could have done the job for half the price.

    The whole job was done on a Mac Book Pro.
     
  13. midiac macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2008
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    Near Los Angeles
    #13
    Thanks for backing me dLight. That's what I'm talking about. Love that link! Times are changing in a big way. SO MANY decently large studios are closing up shop because they can't compete with the pricing from the "new guys".

    What I'm talking about is the story I heard recently of a house advertising and having their AVID systems out front, but when the client leaves, they go in the back and get the job done on FCP.

    I recently mixed an entire feature on a PT LE system with very satisfied clients. They didn't care what I was using, as long as I got the job done, they are happy!

    Heck, I'm posting this reply on an iPhone and amazed at what I can do with this little thing. In a week and a half, THAT whole world is going to change. Soon were probably going to be able to mix a feature from an iPhone-like tablet device, and when you go over to a client's house and mix/edit/produce from their own sofa, I doubt they will be saying, where is your HD or Avid rig???? They'll be enjoying their footrub while sipping on their Martini from their living room. How much is THAT worth? Who will have that availability? Who will be able to DO IT WELL? There is only so much you can do with the tools without the talent.
     
  14. junior thread starter macrumors 6502a

    junior

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2003
    #14

    That's good on you, and this isn't sarcasm, I do mean it, you must be one hell of a talent.
    I'm yet to meet one top engineer that gets away with doing a final mix on a laptop (I guess partly because no studio with proper acoustic environment and outboard gear uses a laptop as it's primary computer), and frankly, as a producer, I'd be very worried about putting my reputation on the line by employing someone to mix (not compose or arrange) in the comfort of his living room/bed room. But that's me, I'm **** scared of the clients (companies/directors) feeling any reservations toward the final product.
    But it's nice to hear that you've made a success of yourself by going a different route to what's been considered the 'standard' way for decades. Hell, I often sit in my studio regretting the ridiculous amount of loan I had to get to build the damn thing. I've still got another 10 years of payments left.

    BTW, I the AVID issue was me just repeating what quite a lot of people in the biz have told me when asking the very thing about Final Cut. They say there's pretty much nothing Final Cut can't do that Avid can do. It's just a way of squeezing as much money out of the clients as they can. And that they're also simply used to working with the system, so they save a bit of time (ie money for themselves) by going that route.
     
  15. dLight macrumors member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2008
    #15
    Wait... look again: $750 for mixing, $750 for the editing. Some of this material was quite complex, and the instrumentation wasn't only different from song to song, but some songs were also consisting of material from several studios. $100/hour isn't considered expensive for a studio here - some studios (including one of the studios that was used for recording this album) take more than twice as much. Based on this rate, you could say that I charge $100 per hour for a mix that takes 7.5 hours.

    Anyway, I know of several ex-Pro Tools users that have gone native, and when it comes to mixing, you can use any buffer you like. You can mix an entire album using the 1024 buffer, meaning that on the 2.4 gHz Core2Duo MacBook Pro, I had more than enough power to do the job I needed to do. On my current Mac Pro I can work with 150 24-bit stereo tracks (playing all the time) with 6-700 plugins in the song and it won't use more than 60-70% of my available power - and if I open a normal song (like eg. the songs from the project I mixed) the CPU meter will show CPU activity in the 10-20% range, so looking at the bare facts, I don't need a Mac Pro or a Pro Tools HD system to do this kind of work. My client knew this - he has a TDM system but does all his work on his MacBook Pro himself, and he was rather thrilled than worried by the fact than one can mix an album on a MacBook Pro. The record label was very happy with the mix, and didn't even ask what kind of hardware I was using.

    I do have a 'proper' studio, with several large rooms, good preamps and monitors, two racks of outboard hardware that I hardly use, and a lot of time and money has been put into proper acoustic treatment of the control room.

    I currently have four Macs, and the record label guys really don't give a rats ass about which of them I use or if the work I do need extra DSP hardware, or if I rely on native DSP power or separate DSP cards. I'm not in any way against using external hardware, but most people nowadays seem to understand that whether I would have used an external digital reverb or an internal plugin, I use 'software + hardware' anyway.

    The computers isn't in the control room, and if I wanted to, I could have pretended I was doing this mix on a large, bulky computer - but why would I do that? Both my client and I know that one can get more DSP power natively than we could in our Pro Tools TDM systems, so - since a plugin running on a TDM chip doesn't sound better than a plugin running on a 'native' DSP chip anyway - why not enjoy the development instead of pretending that we need something we don't?

    There is so much optimization happening under the hood from Apple these days - a lot if improvements regarding DSP use and stability can be seen between 10.5.2 and 10.5.4, and between Logic 8 and Logic 8.02, which means that it's possible to get an enormous amount of DSP power out of these setups.

    I remember similar comments when I first started to use PT hardware around Pro Tools 1.0... 'What do you think people will say when they realize that you don't have a tape recorder?' When I later sold starter to connect my outboard to the Pro Tools hardware instead and mixed 'in the box', and later sold my mixer - the same thing. Today (or: 2-3 years ago), a similar process (and a similar set of comments) is happening because native systems have become so powerful - and this won't stop - but the comments will, just like they did about not using tape and not using mixers.


    Several people I know that are considered having 'one hell of a talent' - to use your term - have been following the same route for a while. I know people who own several Pro Tools HD systems who do all they work in Logic natively - either on a laptop (when a laptop is enough) or on a Mac Pro. I'd like to see myself as revolutionary, a pioneer or 'a hell of a talent' - but to do what I did (in terms of DSP power) you just need to have enough of it - which my laptop had for that project.


    A computer, a digital effect and a DSP card are basically just calculator. It doesn't matter how big it is or what you paid for it, what matters is what you can do with it in real time. The real time requirements for mixing aren't as challenging as real time requirements for recording. What a calculator basically does is to receive some ones and zeros, rearrange them, replaces some ones with zeroes and zeros with ones, and send then to some output. The difference between a digital reverb/DAW/software based synth and a $20 Casio calculator is mainly the amount of real time processing power and the algorithms (plus choice of outputs). Number crunching is number crunching whatever way you look at it, and regarding that job I mentioned, it should have actually have been costing a little more, knowing how much work it is.

    In a very few years know from now I could probably do that kind of work on an iPhone. The day I can connect an external monitor and a wireless keyboard to an iPhone, I'll buy one. The day an iPhone can run a full blown version of OS X, you can use it to make mixes sounding just as good as if they would have been mixed on a high end digital mixer or Pro Tools HD7, or the most powerful Mac Pro. It's all a combination of ears and number crunching (and some experience), and while I see no particular reason to insist on mixing on an iPhone or a laptop, I see no reason not to use a laptop when it offers everything I need for that job - as long as I can have a large monitor attached to it.

    Some clients only call back the contacts that they feel are not trying to squeeze as much money out of them as they can... and if they do, who will keep making money in the future? ;)


    If it's correct that Apple took 49% of the US pro editing market with Avid "trailing on just 22%" in 2007, there will soon be more people that are used to work with FCP than with Avid. Since almost every pro studio I'm aware of have both Pro Tools and some native DAW installed, we could see 'native' taking over the pro audio market as well within a few years. Most people probably want to buy better converters, preamps and microphones than keep spending money on updating their PCI cards anyway.
     
  16. midiac macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2008
    Location:
    Near Los Angeles
    #16
    One last comment from me. . . how long did it take Digi to come out with a working version for Leopard compared to the other companies??? Please!!!
    :cool: No excuse! Like I said before, get with the times! Gotta keep up people, or you're gonna be left behind.
     

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