Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Re: 'Digital Video Editing' Magazine Slams Apple and G5

Originally posted by Xnet
I am very disappointed in the fact that Video Editing Magazine picked up and is running with the idea that Apples SPEC scores are false by comparing them to the ones Intel or AMD have posted on the SPEC web site....I feel that a correction should be made as the data analysis is misleading and incorrect.


The shame of it is that we know that EVERYONE cheats on benchmarks, not just Apple alone.

In fact, Mr. White himself manipulated the benchmark testing by cherrypicking what he put up against the G5. Note also that he conveniently ignores the ~25% variance to be found in Benchmarks of the P4 or Xenon chips on the webpage he cited.

Is it not the height of hypocracy to be guilty the same thing that you're publically condemning another party of?


The bottom line here is that if DVE magazine condones Mr. White slamming Apple on a benchmark, then for journalistic integrity and ethics, then they had better slam everyone else for playing the same game. My above question is rhetorical: to single one business out for 'special treatment' is hypocracy, pure and simple.


This article was an opportunity lost - - to discuss how everyone "cooks the books" on benchmarks. Instead, its merely just another diatribe rankling on one specific vendor.




The good news is that Mr. White's article did contain a link to a nice (6 page) interview with Apple Senior Vice President of Hardware Engineering Jon Rubinstein, which, while undated, was obviously done last week (6/23-27). IMO, its worth reading.

Interestingly, it was how Jon was apparently unaware of the AMD Opteron from BOXX Technologies that shipped earlier this month, and because Jon's staff apparently wasn't lickety-split in leaping to answer Mr. White's questions on relative benchmarks as their highest priority in the world that prompted Mr. White to try to discredit Apple in this Editorial.

And in that attempt to discredit, Mr. White defended his attack with the statement:

"When nobody from Apple ever did get back to me, I pressed the company via email for a comment on this discrepancy."

But let's get the story straight: what Mr. White wanted, Apple did not have.

And in order for anyone to provide it was not something that could be done in a few hours, or even a few days. He never had a specific deadline that Apple had promised a response.

And in the end, Mr. White waited LESS THAN A WEEK before going on the attack. And in doing so, this attempted discrediting backfired on Mr. White


Afterall, anyone who's got any familiarity with testing hardware knows what's involved to generate a quality benchmark run on a brand new set of hardware:

1) you go get budget approval
2) you go buy the hardware
3) wait for it to ship
4) wait for it to get through receiving
5) set it up & configure it
6) load and run the benchmarks
7) check the results; (build/test/fix)
8) rerun the benchmarks a few more times
9) run the validated set
10) write up the results
11) run the report through managment
12) run the report through legal
13) revise and issue the press release

Assuming that the BOXX can ship in <24 hours, I'd be floored if this could be done - properly - within a week, and I'd be pleasantly surprized if this could all be done in less than two weeks; YMMV.

So regardless of if Mr. White is technically right or wrong about the performance of the Boxx vs. the G5, IMO, it was grossly ethically wrong for Mr. White to "jump" on this issue because it he's not really provided a reasonable amount of time for the accused respond.

Instead, Mr. White is acting like a pouting brat who didn't get immediate gratification of a month's worth of work turned around in mere days, and not a seasoned, objective professional.


YMMV, but as far as I'm personally concerned, Mr. White has forfeited his Journalistic Integrity, and this reflects poorly on both himself and the website he writes for, digitalvideoediting.com.


Goodbye, Mr. White, and goodbye to digitalvideoediting.com. Since you've proven yourself incapable of journalistic integrity, I'll go elsewhere for my impartial and objective product news for this technology field.



-hh

PS: I took a look at the Boxx website. One you increase the standard 40MB hard drive to the next larger size (120GB), add Firewire, and add a DVD-R/CD-RW "Superdrive" equivalent, you're over $4K ($4,149 for a 242, although you could have gone for a slower 240 at $2,880), which means that the DP 2GHz PowerMac's may be ~33% slower (a claim yet to be validated by objective, independent benchmark tests), the Macintosh is definitely $1K (~27%) cheaper.

But I should also note that the Boxx is available with only Windows 2000 or XP Pro, it still has the 32bit-based 4GB file size issue which limits its real usefulness as a true Engineering Workstation. The implication is that if you need large file sizes, it's off the list for contention no matter how "fast" it may be. Gosh, wonder if DVE's review of the Boxx mentioned that one?
 
Re: Re: 'Digital Video Editing' Magazine Slams Apple and G5

Originally posted by -hh

PS: I took a look at the Boxx website. One you increase the standard 40MB hard drive to the next larger size (120GB), add Firewire, and add a DVD-R/CD-RW "Superdrive" equivalent, you're over $4K ($4,149 for a 242, although you could have gone for a slower 240 at $2,880), which means that the DP 2GHz PowerMac's may be ~33% slower (a claim yet to be validated by objective, independent benchmark tests), the Macintosh is definitely $1K (~27%) cheaper.

Actually, on the DVE site, Mr.White was referring to the 244 processor which (on the boxx website) brings the machine price (with the things you mentioned) to ....
 

Attachments

  • pic.jpg
    pic.jpg
    5.7 KB · Views: 303
"But I should also note that the Boxx is available with only Windows 2000 or XP Pro, it still has the 32bit-based 4GB file size issue which limits its real usefulness as a true Engineering Workstation."

Wrong! There is no 4 Gb file size issue. There was utilizing the FAT32 (File Allocation Table) file system under Windows 95/98/Me but not using NT/2000/XP which uses the NTFS file system.
If you are referring the the maximum amount of addressable RAM then yes, 4 Gb is correct (One sidenote though the new G5 can address up to 8 Gb of RAM...Opteron can address 16 Gb of RAM ). NT by the way was 64 bit long before OSX and was used extensively with the Alpha EV(x) line of processors (which even a year after it's discontinuation was still more powerful than it's latest SPARC/MIPS/HP-PA/IBM/Intel counterparts). Right now the overwhelming majority of 3D workstations and CAD/engineering workstations are PC's.

Also the RISC vs CISC argument is not as clear as it used to be. The AMD processors are more of a RISC/CISC hybrid than an a true CISC processor. The first two pipeline stages basically translate or break down the x86 instructions into macro-ops. On the backend of the procesor where the work gets do the AMD K7 is all RISC. Here's a quote from John "Hanibal" Stokes the comparison of the G4 and K7

It should be clear by now that the K7 is not a CISC processor that has some RISC characteristics. Instead, the K7 is a full-blown post-RISC processor, just like the MPC7400 (Except the K7 runs the legacy x86 ISA in emulation.).

The AMD procesors are a much more different beast than even Intel and this design philosophy has carried over to the K8 (Opteron/Hammer whatever you want to call it). For those truly interested in processor design theory and praxis go here:
http://arstechnica.com/cpu/index.html
You migh realize that it's not G5 vs. Intel/AMD but rather G5 vs. Intel vs. AMD

The real comparisons between AMD 64 bit solutions and the G5 should take place when AMD releases the Athlon 64 in August. This processor is the one AMD is targeting at consumers. Right now the Opteron is an enterprise class processor more akin to IBM's Power4 so it's going to be more expensive...Any takers want to build a Opteron workstation vs. a Power4 workstation?...I bet the Opteron is cheaper... de_la_saracen was right, the Power4 is faster than the Opteron but when comparing price/performance ratios is the Power4 faster enough to justify the added cost?
All those figures everyone has posted here will change when AMD releases their new comsumer processors which are historially faster and more inexpensive than their workstation class counterparts.

When WindowsXP beats OSX in terms of increased user productivity, then maybe I'll have a look at Opertons or Xeons.

The OS, while part of the equation is not the measure of overall productivity...How much video and Audio have you edited with OSX? That's right, not much...that's what FCP and Logic are for. From an integration standpoint, Gates and the Redmond Giant are finally on to something in the audio/video/graphics arena.

just imagine what Apple will churn out NEXT year... Perhaps a dual-processor G5 17" laptop?!?

kiwi_the_iwik
If you read the Charlie White interview with the Apple and IBM reps, they seem to suggest that there is not G5 laptop in the works. Pay attention to their "heatsink" comment. And don't hold your breath for a dual processor notebook from either side PC or Apple. Battery technology just isn't there yet...Being facetious is fine but when dealing with someone like Charlie White, it's best to confine speculation the realistic...

Note also that he conveniently ignores the ~25% variance to be found in Benchmarks of the P4 or Xenon chips on the webpage he cited.

-hh,
If you are referring to the disparity in performance between the P4 and the P4 Xeon, then you should know that they are two different chips. They are based on the same core but the Xeon has a higher pin count and much more L1 and L2 cache.

That's about it for now..I'l be back

James Green
 
No problem. He can say whatever he wants to. Once G5 Power Mac hits the market and real world comparison test come out, he'll have to eat his own words.
 
well, nonkjo -

I didn't have any intention of being facetious in my comments to Mr. White. I DID, however, have EVERY intention to show that Apple are market leaders in innovation and technology.

My comments were purely speculative - much like many of the comments that HE himself reported in his commentary.



So, give it a rest.

:rolleyes:
 
Being facetious is fine but when dealing with someone like Charlie White, it's best to confine speculation the realistic...

Hey Kiwi,
I said this because Charlie White is a pompus a** who would twist what you (or things like it that anyone might say) into ammunition to use against you. It was a friendly piece of advice. Why give the guy bullets to shoot at you?

I don't rest,

James Green
:)
 
Bogged down by numbers?

It irks me when people get bogged down in trying to spec out processors they don't even have. Let's just wait and see if FCP runs tons faster on a G5 (which it will), and then you can race it against a PeeCee running Premiere, an Avid system, or a Boxx (whatever the hell THAT is), and I think the G5 will prove itself in that arena. As for me, I lust after watching my computer render transitions in real time.
 
as a PC user, even I was a bit surprised and doubtful after reading his article. If you look into his reviews, you will notice that it was not the first time he's done a "Mac vs. PC" review.

I think it was the 3rd installment, "part 3" if i recall correctly.

And the funny part about it being a "G5 vs. Intel vs. Amd" is that IBM has a stake in all three of them. Power PC technology for Mac's...helping AMD with manufacturing, etc...

And then oddly enough, IBM is also selling desktops with Intel chips...

Seems like IBM is the master puppeteer in the whole scene.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.