diglloyd's 2.93GHz 'Nehalem' Mac Pro Review!

[rylin]

It feels like that you are the pesky troll defending your machines to death while your not actually 100% certain of your claims.

One fact is clear, the nehalem machines are faster than the ones that they are replacing.

I'm definitely not 100% certain, as we don't have the specifics on everything.
On the other hand, I'm talking from years of experience with different platforms, and I back up my arguments with reason, sources and examples where possible.

If I rephrase what you said to "Nehalem is faster when it comes to memory throughput and on a clock by clock basis", it'll be the only true thing you've said in this thread.

 

[nanofrog]

WHAT more do you previous gen 08 owners want from me!! Good lord. (notice how only the previous gen mac pro owners attacking me).

I don't own an '08 MP, as I returned it after about a week. 😱

I was trying to not only answer you're question, but explain WHY.

 

[jjahshik32]

I'm definitely not 100% certain, as we don't have the specifics on everything.
On the other hand, I'm talking from years of experience with different platforms, and I back up my arguments with reason, sources and examples where possible.

If I rephrase what you said to "Nehalem is faster when it comes to memory throughput and on a clock by clock basis", it'll be the only true thing you've said in this thread.

What more can you say about it? Nehalem OVERALL is faster than the previous gen that its replacing.

WHY is it so hard to believe that!! Good God i'm getting a migraine.

I don't own an '08 MP, as I returned it after about a week. 😱

I was trying to not only answer you're question, but explain WHY.

Doesnt it bother you that there are people saying the 08 models will perform on equal and it wouldnt matter compared to the Nehalems??

It sure as hell bothers me when we know for a fact they are faster. Thats my whole point. They argue to the death that oh well the 08 models will utilize this and that benefits too. I know it will!! But so will the Nehalem models as well and thus be faster than the 08 models.

Couldnt you understand my frustration?? I didnt think it would turn out to be like a 3 page of arguments. I just made my little opinion and stated a fact judging by the benchmarks thus far and I thought it would be left at that.

 

[rylin]

Doesnt it bother you that there are people saying the 08 models will perform on equal and it wouldnt matter compared to the Nehalems??

It sure as hell bothers me when we know for a fact they are faster. Thats my whole point. They argue to the death that oh well the 08 models will utilize this and that benefits too. I know it will!! But so will the Nehalem models as well and thus be faster than the 08 models.

Couldnt you understand my frustration?? I didnt think it would turn out to be like a 3 page of arguments. I just made my little opinion and stated a fact judging by the benchmarks thus far and I thought it would be left at that.

Eh, the past couple of pages you've argued that SL will make the 09 MP run 36463654% faster (note for the sarcasm impaired: that number is just an approximation).
We all know that clock for clock, Nehalem is faster.
We know the memory throughput is higher.

Nobody's argued that.

 

[jjahshik32]

Eh, the past couple of pages you've argued that SL will make the 09 MP run 36463654% faster (note for the sarcasm impaired: that number is just an approximation).
We all know that clock for clock, Nehalem is faster.
We know the memory throughput is higher.

Nobody's argued that.

WHEN DID I PUT UP 3287598342753% besides the apple's claim of up to 40% less latency!!!! 😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡

 

[rylin]

WHEN DID I PUT UP 3287598342753% besides the apple's claim of up to 40% less latency!!!! 😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡

You've been saying the MP 09 will benefit immensely from SL, much more so than MP 08.

Here's another good hint for you:
If you're the only one arguing a certain thing, odds are you're wrong.

 

[nicolasmasset]

Guys, this argument is pointless. You just misunderstood each other. Can anyone say: Back on topic!

I'm still on the fence, but I think I'm going for a 09, especially regarding powerconsumption. All of us here who can afford a mp are living in luxury and we're going to by a mp anyways, so we might as well get the most energy efficient one and help the planet out.

 

[nanofrog]

Doesnt it bother you that there are people saying the 08 models will perform on equal and it wouldnt matter compared to the Nehalems??

It sure as hell bothers me when we know for a fact they are faster. Thats my whole point. They argue to the death that oh well the 08 models will utilize this and that benefits too. I know it will!! But so will the Nehalem models as well and thus be faster than the 08 models.

Couldnt you understand my frustration?? I didnt think it would turn out to be like a 3 page of arguments. I just made my little opinion and stated a fact judging by the benchmarks thus far and I thought it would be left at that.

From you're posts, I thought you were talking about SL causing the performance differences, not the hardware.

As to the '08 MP vs '09 MP, I do think the Nehalem archetecture will outperform the Penryn, but perhaps not by a very large margin. As already seen, the margin varies, depending on the test.

But the differences, in general, would match up (approximately) what the benchmarks are producing under Leopard.

Not so much on the frustration, as I didn't actually realize you were talking about the architecture between the systems. The use of SL made it appear you were meaning it, not the Nehalem parts. 😉

SL = massive 😕 😕 //😛
Had you left it out, I probably would have picked up on what you meant. 😀

It happens. 😛

 

[VirtualRain]

What more can you say about it? Nehalem OVERALL is faster than the previous gen that its replacing.

WHY is it so hard to believe that!! Good God i'm getting a migraine.



Doesnt it bother you that there are people saying the 08 models will perform on equal and it wouldnt matter compared to the Nehalems??

It sure as hell bothers me when we know for a fact they are faster. Thats my whole point. They argue to the death that oh well the 08 models will utilize this and that benefits too. I know it will!! But so will the Nehalem models as well and thus be faster than the 08 models.

Couldnt you understand my frustration?? I didnt think it would turn out to be like a 3 page of arguments. I just made my little opinion and stated a fact judging by the benchmarks thus far and I thought it would be left at that.

I think if you read back to your post #67, you will understand where this all started. I think you are on-board with the rest of us now, but it hasn't been easy. 😛

BTW, I don't have an 08 MP and could care less about the differences between the old and new... I've merely been trying to correct some misunderstandings as have other's who you feel have been argumentative.

Peace! 🙂

 

[jjahshik32]

Guys, this argument is pointless. You just misunderstood each other. Can anyone say: Back on topic!

I'm still on the fence, but I think I'm going for a 09, especially regarding powerconsumption. All of us here who can afford a mp are living in luxury and we're going to by a mp anyways, so we might as well get the most energy efficient one and help the planet out.

Its alright I'm done arguing those who keeps defending their 08 models to death. I guess whatever makes them feel secure.

Anyway, I'm seriously thinking about the 2.26GHz model but the only thing I dont like about this model is that in its official spec sheet it supports only up to 1066mhz RAM but the 2.66GHz and the 2.93GHz models support up to 1333mhz.

Also I noticed the qpi speeds are faster on the 2.66GHz and the 2.93GHz as to the 2.26GHz.

 

[Lucibelle]

Wow! What a read. 😱

If I may, just to add a possibly simpler perspective to the past two pages... This has nothing to do with how computers work, what 'x' model is supposed to have that 'y' model doesn't... this is purely from a historical view.

In my own 13 years of Mac experiences, I must say that I have seen several instances of "substantial" hardware and/or software releases, both on the Mac and Windows side. Not one of them revolutionized the world overnight, nor have I yet to see a release that made the previous one instantly obsolete. It's done in baby steps, as those who do upgrade each year can tell you. Only those who wait a few years notice the really big improvements. As a side note, I have heard that PowerPC Macs are going to be left behind from SL's release. If anyone knows more about this...

'09 MP owners are going to become guinea pigs, and I'm saying this with an '09 MP scheduled to arrive today. I'm very excited and very impressed about what I've seen, but we've already seen some existing software suffer on the new MPs, and more bugs will appear when SL is released and/or when new software is developed to run on it. Right now, the '08 MPs are incredibly fast and incredibly STABLE. Most developer bugs on this machine have been thoroughly squashed. So, in that respect, our '08 MP owners currently have an advantage. The ProTools users who are having issues on their '09s aren't bragging about how fast their new machines are, at least not yet.


However, if I may, while I think it is safe to say that SL will perform very well on '09 MPs, I would like to dispel one myth about SL being overly-focused on Nehalem models. SL is supposed to allow for up to 16TB of RAM, is it not? If that is the case, then why do the Nehalem Macs max out at 32Gs? 😛

Now let us all go back to enjoying our Macs, whichever models they may be. 🙂 (having typed this on my hubby's wonderful G4 Mac Mini)

 

[Ploki]

"To accommodate the enormous amounts of memory being added to advanced hardware, Snow Leopard extends the 64-bit technology in Mac OS X to support breakthrough amounts of RAM — up to a theoretical 16TB, or 500 times more than what is possible today. More RAM makes applications run faster, because more of their data can be kept in the very fast physical RAM instead of on the much slower hard disk."

lol, guess what, 08 mac pros ALSO HAVE RAM! 😀
and 09 base models can only have 8 GB. ;D
so, what does that mean to snow leopards theoretical 16TB?
that any 08 will still have 32GB and 09's 8gb or 32 gb.
applies to both generations the same, More ram, faster applications? no?

you know, the improvement from 1066mhz FSB to 1600mhz FSB also had an impact and didnt need any special software to do so! it has nothing to do with leopard../snow leopard/windows/linux

That is BS. Faster memory has everything to do with relations to an OS. Its retarded to think otherwise. Faster 1033MHZ RAM + QPI, 2x hyperthreading in each cores, able to disable unused cores and triggering turbo boost and no more slow ass FSB has everything to do with faster memory throughput.

Jesus, so this is what it feels like fighting with someone whos trying to defend their own hardware to DEATH.

no, this feels like fighting someone who has some common sense (you against 5 of us?) and you are like don chiote.. 🙂

faster memory is faster regardless of the OS, it has nothing to do with the OS directly, it makes it run faster. but that again has nothing to do with Snow Leopard in particular.
QPI is just a hardware BUS like FSB was and its infact the same thing done differently and it will become futile eventually like FSB did.

Oh boy.. nevermind!! Yea the 08 model will be exactly the same speed as the current models!! There are you guys happy now, end of discussion.

not it wont be, nobody ever claimed that.
but if you take a look at the apples benchmarks, 2,4x memory throughput is already utilized 100% in ANY os, including leopard. its a hardware property not software property.

What more can you say about it? Nehalem OVERALL is faster than the previous gen that its replacing.

WHY is it so hard to believe that!! Good God i'm getting a migraine.

nobody ever said it was not faster..
here is why people complain:
base models:
06>08 = 100% faster, 0% price increase
08>09 = 25% faster, 10-15% price increase for octo
08>09 = 30% slower(quad?), 15% price decrease compared to OCTO.
and now with discounts:
08 is 2500$ and 09 is 3200$ for base octo, being 700$ difference for what, 10-15% of performance increase..
----------this is the frustrations and debates whether its better to get a 08 octo and just swap when nehalem evolves into something (16core, not 16 "virtual" core)

these are facts:
QPI has nothing to do with OS, never has, its just an interface to communicate between hardware and IS and has ALWAYS been working without ANY OS and is totally 100% HARDWARE!
Thus, installing ANY os wont make the hardware bus FASTER or SLOWER, with the exception of OVERCLOCKING IT IN FIRMWARE. everything else is THE SAME.
yes, it is, 2.4X faster than 08 generation, but Snow Leopard will NOT change that ratio in any way, so waiting for SL to "benefit" that is stupid.

Hyperthreading means ONE 2.26/2.66/2.93 core can take 2 threads instead of one. that in a very crippled explanation means one 2.26 core handling two threads, thus distributing power. its not 2.26x16 cores. so raw power is the same, and performance gain is somewhat weak, 15-20%, still, no OS can change that because you cannot suck more power than its available...

1033 RAM is a ram speed increase. it happens every single generation. it went form 06 667mhz to 08 800mhz. and now to 1033 mhz and 1333 mhz.

Snow leopard in conclusion will make EVERY SYSTEM FASTER...

it will not boost Nehalems into sky and leave 08 gens behind.
08 gens are also multithreaded..raw power still means something regardless of the architecture 🙂

i am not saying 08 is faster, its not, its slower, for ****s sake THANK GOD its slower it would be stupid for apple to release a slower computer for a higher price... all debates here were regarding price/performance=value

 

[rylin]

here is why people complain:
base models:
06>08 = 100% faster, 0% price increase
08>09 = 25% faster, 10-15% price increase for octo
08>09 = 30% slower(quad?), 15% price decrease compared to OCTO.
and now with discounts:
08 is 2500$ and 09 is 3200$ for base octo, being 700$ difference for what, 10-15% of performance increase..

Indeed, it's really a discussion of "bang for the buck" -- and SL can't change this drastically.
What's worse is for those of us in other markets than the US.
08 -> 09 was effectively a $1100 difference, and there's no way it's worth it.

Looking at what the market is like today, I can get a octo 2.8 with decent amounts of RAM and a storage system pushing a few hundred MB per second for less than the cost of the base 09 octo.. or I could get two refurb octo 2.8s for the same cost as a octo 09.

Fast local IO is the single biggest performance boost you can get, so a octo 2.8 pushing 300-500MB/sec would crush the 09 MP.. for less money.

People saying the 09 will get a drastically different performance profile thanks to SL are simply un- or mis-educated as to what components do what, and they need to be corrected before they go spouting their gibberish to someone else who then goes out expecting a world of change.

Either way, I'm willing to let this rest for now, but I will correct silly statements where I see them.. I'm sure that's obvious by now 😉

 

[rylin]

Its alright I'm done arguing those who keeps defending their 08 models to death. I guess whatever makes them feel secure.

Anyway, I'm seriously thinking about the 2.26GHz model but the only thing I dont like about this model is that in its official spec sheet it supports only up to 1066mhz RAM but the 2.66GHz and the 2.93GHz models support up to 1333mhz.

Also I noticed the qpi speeds are faster on the 2.66GHz and the 2.93GHz as to the 2.26GHz.

Here you go again, attacking people.
I'm not calling you a uneducated miscreant whose arguments have no basis in reality.. but I could.

You keep saying we defend our hardware to death, and that supposedly we're insecure bastards?
When all we've done is point out flaws in your arguments?
Seriously?

If you want to discuss things, do so without these silly little outbursts and you'd be taken more seriously.
As it is, all we've seen is misinformation and outbursts.

The point I will defend is that in terms of bang-for-the-buck, the 08 MP trounces the 09 -- do you want to start arguing economics now? 🙄

 

[rylin]

In my own 13 years of Mac experiences, I must say that I have seen several instances of "substantial" hardware and/or software releases, both on the Mac and Windows side. Not one of them revolutionized the world overnight, nor have I yet to see a release that made the previous one instantly obsolete. It's done in baby steps, as those who do upgrade each year can tell you. Only those who wait a few years notice the really big improvements.

Ah, the wonderfully refreshing voice of reason 🙂

 

[Tesselator]

The results are in folks...

The Review
http://macperformanceguide.com/Reviews-MacProNehalem.html

Conclusions
http://macperformanceguide.com/Reviews-MacProNehalem-Conclusions.html

A cracking review from the excellent Lloyd L Chambers that's undoubtedly going to make some new 2009 mac pro owners a little queasy.

Definitely biased and unprofessional. Were you paid for the work? By Apple?

The funniest line was:

"Upgrade your Mac Pro — for free

You can upgrade your slower MP09 for free by finding a faster one somewhere...in just a few deft moments " ​

LOL!!!

Sure, just step outside and find a new processor and maybe same RAM laying around on the lawn, next to the doggy poop and insert it. Hehehehehhee....

 

[rylin]

Definitely biased and unprofessional. Were you paid for the work? By Apple?

The funniest line was:

"Upgrade your Mac Pro — for free

You can upgrade your slower MP09 for free by finding a faster one somewhere...in just a few deft moments " ​

LOL!!!

Sure, just step outside and find a new processor and maybe same RAM laying around on the lawn, next to the doggy poop and insert it. Hehehehehhee....

On the lawn?
Think "at work" 😉

Get whoever to purchase a 2.93 octo.
Bring your 2.26 CPU tray with you from home.

60 seconds, tops 😉

Maybe it's time to buy stock in kensington 😛

 

[Tesselator]

On the lawn?
Think "at work" 😉

Get whoever to purchase a 2.93 octo.
Bring your 2.26 CPU tray with you from home.

60 seconds, tops 😉

Maybe it's time to buy stock in kensington 😛

Hahaha... Or just have Apple parachute it in from their private jet. Ring up ole' Steve and give him your drop coordinates. 😀

Bahahahaaaa...

 

[Tesselator]

Oh and hey...


Quit picking on Nanofrog!

Not only does he have an awesome screen name he knows what he's talking about. But mostly I say this just cuz his screen name rocks! 🙂

 

[jjahshik32]

Wow! What a read. 😱

If I may, just to add a possibly simpler perspective to the past two pages... This has nothing to do with how computers work, what 'x' model is supposed to have that 'y' model doesn't... this is purely from a historical view.

In my own 13 years of Mac experiences, I must say that I have seen several instances of "substantial" hardware and/or software releases, both on the Mac and Windows side. Not one of them revolutionized the world overnight, nor have I yet to see a release that made the previous one instantly obsolete. It's done in baby steps, as those who do upgrade each year can tell you. Only those who wait a few years notice the really big improvements. As a side note, I have heard that PowerPC Macs are going to be left behind from SL's release. If anyone knows more about this...

'09 MP owners are going to become guinea pigs, and I'm saying this with an '09 MP scheduled to arrive today. I'm very excited and very impressed about what I've seen, but we've already seen some existing software suffer on the new MPs, and more bugs will appear when SL is released and/or when new software is developed to run on it. Right now, the '08 MPs are incredibly fast and incredibly STABLE. Most developer bugs on this machine have been thoroughly squashed. So, in that respect, our '08 MP owners currently have an advantage. The ProTools users who are having issues on their '09s aren't bragging about how fast their new machines are, at least not yet.


However, if I may, while I think it is safe to say that SL will perform very well on '09 MPs, I would like to dispel one myth about SL being overly-focused on Nehalem models. SL is supposed to allow for up to 16TB of RAM, is it not? If that is the case, then why do the Nehalem Macs max out at 32Gs? 😛

Now let us all go back to enjoying our Macs, whichever models they may be. 🙂 (having typed this on my hubby's wonderful G4 Mac Mini)

Well one thing I can tell you is that the reason the nehalem mac pro can only to up to 32gb is because currently there are only 4gb dimms available.

Just wait until the 8gb dimms are out.

 

[Ploki]

Well one thing I can tell you is that the reason the nehalem mac pro can only to up to 32gb is because currently there are only 4gb dimms available.

Just wait until the 8gb dimms are out.

lol. 😀 and why would 08 mac pro support any less with 8gb sticks?
do you know WHEN will they actually make affordable 8gb sticks? do you know how much 4gb ram sticks cost?
what is your explanation why is quadcore then limited to 8gb, if there are 4 slots and 4gb sticks ARE available. 4x4=16GB

you dont know much about computers, do you? youve been overruled by reason many many times in this thread...

 

[jjahshik32]

lol, guess what, 08 mac pros ALSO HAVE RAM! 😀
and 09 base models can only have 8 GB. ;D
so, what does that mean to snow leopards theoretical 16TB?
that any 08 will still have 32GB and 09's 8gb or 32 gb.
applies to both generations the same, More ram, faster applications? no?

you know, the improvement from 1066mhz FSB to 1600mhz FSB also had an impact and didnt need any special software to do so! it has nothing to do with leopard../snow leopard/windows/linux


no, this feels like fighting someone who has some common sense (you against 5 of us?) and you are like don chiote.. 🙂

faster memory is faster regardless of the OS, it has nothing to do with the OS directly, it makes it run faster. but that again has nothing to do with Snow Leopard in particular.
QPI is just a hardware BUS like FSB was and its infact the same thing done differently and it will become futile eventually like FSB did.



not it wont be, nobody ever claimed that.
but if you take a look at the apples benchmarks, 2,4x memory throughput is already utilized 100% in ANY os, including leopard. its a hardware property not software property.


nobody ever said it was not faster..
here is why people complain:
base models:
06>08 = 100% faster, 0% price increase
08>09 = 25% faster, 10-15% price increase for octo
08>09 = 30% slower(quad?), 15% price decrease compared to OCTO.
and now with discounts:
08 is 2500$ and 09 is 3200$ for base octo, being 700$ difference for what, 10-15% of performance increase..
----------this is the frustrations and debates whether its better to get a 08 octo and just swap when nehalem evolves into something (16core, not 16 "virtual" core)

these are facts:
QPI has nothing to do with OS, never has, its just an interface to communicate between hardware and IS and has ALWAYS been working without ANY OS and is totally 100% HARDWARE!
Thus, installing ANY os wont make the hardware bus FASTER or SLOWER, with the exception of OVERCLOCKING IT IN FIRMWARE. everything else is THE SAME.
yes, it is, 2.4X faster than 08 generation, but Snow Leopard will NOT change that ratio in any way, so waiting for SL to "benefit" that is stupid.

Hyperthreading means ONE 2.26/2.66/2.93 core can take 2 threads instead of one. that in a very crippled explanation means one 2.26 core handling two threads, thus distributing power. its not 2.26x16 cores. so raw power is the same, and performance gain is somewhat weak, 15-20%, still, no OS can change that because you cannot suck more power than its available...

1033 RAM is a ram speed increase. it happens every single generation. it went form 06 667mhz to 08 800mhz. and now to 1033 mhz and 1333 mhz.

Snow leopard in conclusion will make EVERY SYSTEM FASTER...

it will not boost Nehalems into sky and leave 08 gens behind.
08 gens are also multithreaded..raw power still means something regardless of the architecture 🙂

i am not saying 08 is faster, its not, its slower, for ****s sake THANK GOD its slower it would be stupid for apple to release a slower computer for a higher price... all debates here were regarding price/performance=value

It seems that most of the stuff you said is false.

QPI is the same as FSB?? Oh please, why do you think they changed its architecture because QPI is much faster than FSB. Just read about how these two things work.

 

[Ploki]

It seems that most of the stuff you said is false.

QPI is the same as FSB?? Oh please, why do you think they changed its architecture because QPI is much faster than FSB. Just read about how these two things work.

i never stated QPI is the same as FSB. please show me where i said such stupidity? let me help you, i didnt. i said its LIKE fsb, as in, they carry the same function.

it happens that most i said was correct. else, correct me, just "quote" and correct me, i insist, im always willing to learn, but i really dont take critics that are not backed up by explanations well...

08 vs 09 is ALL about bang for the buck! 06 vs 08 wasnt, because performance increase completely justified the not for a cent increased price, actually, it didnt justify it, it was too cheap considering the performance bump.

Well one thing I can tell you is that the reason the nehalem mac pro can only to up to 32gb is because currently there are only 4gb dimms available.

Just wait until the 8gb dimms are out.

here is where you said that nehalem mac pro can only go up to 32 due to ram stick size limitations, however, if you meant something else (which you didnt) you would write "...the reason the OCTOCORE mac pro can only to up to 32gb is..."

by the way, the fact that people (that are not me) and that have proven their knowledge of computers have taken a stand against your misinformity speaks for itself

 

[jjahshik32]

i never stated QPI is the same as FSB. please show me where i said such stupidity? let me help you, i didnt. i said its LIKE fsb, as in, they carry the same function.

it happens that most i said was correct. else, correct me, just "quote" and correct me, i insist, im always willing to learn, but i really dont take critics that are not backed up by explanations well...

08 vs 09 is ALL about bang for the buck! 06 vs 08 wasnt, because performance increase completely justified the not for a cent increased price, actually, it didnt justify it, it was too cheap considering the performance bump.


this is intentionally forming statements in a misleading way:

here is where you said that nehalem mac pro can only go up to 32 due to ram stick size limitations, however, if you meant something else (which you didnt) you would write "...the reason the OCTOCORE mac pro can only to up to 32gb is..."

by the way, the fact that people (that are not me) and that have proven their knowledge of computers have taken a stand against your misinformity speaks for itself

Oh please. Continue to defend your hardware, I dont blame ya since the new precious is out and especially when you spent $2799 for your old precious probably a few months ago when it can be had for $1899 (business) $2499 (no business) now at the local apple store.

You can say it was well worth it to you and good for you but everything that spews out of your mouth is the reason to make yourself feel better when you sleep at night. I am done responding to this really dumb argument, in which it shouldnt be an argument to begin with because you know why? Nehalem>>Penryn 08 models

I'm not talking about prices or anything else for that matter. All I'm saying is these new Nehalems are simply faster that is all. You can throw prices at me, you can say it still similar in specs or higher clocks (ahem turbo boost) or whatever. In the end its just, Nehalem>>Penryn 08 models.

I cant believe people cant take it that their once fastest workstations are slow compared to the new.

Last thing I will say is we'll see where you are when SL actually ships.

And here we go another response by you defend AWAY~

 

[Horst]

Seems to my young jjahshik32 did a better job ridiculing the latest Mac Pros than any review ever could . 😉