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Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
So how are people to know whether or not they are black, and therefore prone to sickle-cell anemia?

The concept of race is not only valid, it is very useful. For instance: If you are caucasian and want dreadlocks, the best method is "backcombing". If you are black and want dreadlocks, the best method is the "twist" method. If one is caucasian and attempts the "twist" method, he will not get dreadlocks. So it is pretty clear from these two applications, at the very least, that the concept of race is useful. I know it may be "politically correct" to argue it doesn't exist, but the last time political correctness interfered with science, Galileo was forced to recant.

Phil,

it has nothing to do with PC and everything to do with science and the abuse of science by those who wish to push theories with "race" at its core.

The science of population genetics looks at population groups and gives us many insights about the frequency of different traits in these groups. This is a very important field of study and it looks at the kinds of questions you raise. There is a huge difference between this and racial explanations of traits. For instance, let us look again at the sickle-cell trait you raised. About one in every 400 African Americans has this disease, but it is a trait not common to all who would fall under the racial category of "black." This is a trait that comes from those who have ancestors from central Africa. It does not have the same frequency among other African or Australian aboriginal population groups, but all of these folks are lumped together to form this category of "black." The categories of "race" are defined by skin color, but we could just as well pick any other physical characteristic to make new categories. Why not the blue eyed race, or the race of people who can curl their tongues. We could even try your hair texture method as a defining characteristic of "race," but with the many folks with "kinky" hair I think we will have a hard time separating folks out and still maintain the skin color lines. It all makes no sense from a scientific point of view. Phil, if you want some information on this issue, read Montagu's book. You are much more likely to believe him than me.

It is useful to remember that Galileo was forced to recant his scientific views in the face of the power of the political masters of his time. In this case it is those that would overthrow science and reason that wish to impose the ideas of "race." Let us hope they never again become our political masters.
 
Originally posted by Sayhey
It is useful to remember that Galileo was forced to recant his scientific views in the face of the power of the political masters of his time. In this case it is those that would overthrow science and reason that wish to impose the ideas of "race." Let us hope they never again become our political masters.

It seems more a political consideration than a scientific one to abolish race to me.
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
It seems more a political consideration than a scientific one to abolish race to me.

It would be foolish to deny that the idea that science should determine the existence or lack thereof of "race" does not have a political perspective. I think it is a pretty darn good one though.
 
In my opinion, regardless of if certain races are, on average, more apt to excel at certain things, or not, it does not matter; the fact that the individual can fall anywhere in the spectrum regardless of race makes this so.
 
Originally posted by johnnowak
In my opinion, regardless of if certain races are, on average, more apt to excel at certain things, or not, it does not matter; the fact that the individual can fall anywhere in the spectrum regardless of race makes this so.

Amen! And you can tell that to Yao Ming!
 
Originally posted by johnnowak
In my opinion, regardless of if certain races are, on average, more apt to excel at certain things, or not, it does not matter; the fact that the individual can fall anywhere in the spectrum regardless of race makes this so.

Just what abilities do you think are tied to "race"? johnnowak, if you are interested in learning how IQ has been misused by folks to perpetuate the idea of racial inequality then I have another book to recommend. It is called The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould. Though it predates The Bell Curve it provides a devastating analyses of the misuse of intelligence tests. Along with Montagu's book that I listed earlier, I think it would give you a better background in this subject.
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
It seems more a political consideration than a scientific one to abolish race to me.

The idea of race as a social construct goes a lot deeper than I think you understand.

For example, a hundred and sixty years ago in the United States and in Britain, the Irish were not considered "white." Yet, today, Irish-Americans are pillars of "white" America.

A slow social process took place that "promoted" Irish Americans to the status of "white." Eastern and southern Europeans were similarly viewed as "not white" and have slowly gained that status.

In his book "The Wages of Whiteness," David Roediger argues that the continual extension of "whiteness" to groups that had not previously been considered so was part of a policy to divide the working classes of the United States along racial lines so they would not percieve common interests.

Rodeger makes a very compelling argument. I urge you to read it.
 
I understand the power of race as a social construct. In Jamaica, where nearly everyone is of dark skin and African ancestry, my father once encountered a dark-skinned man who swore at him rather incoherently. Another dark-skinned individual responded, "Oh, that's just pidgin English, only the blacks speak that."

However, I will also say that race as a scientific distinction probably does exist. To be consistent, I would say that, for instance, Arabs are in the "Caucasian" category, while Native Americans are in the "Asian" category--surely not the usual social distinctions, but definitely valid in a purely scientific context.
 
Where did this info come from, "The Bell Curve Theory" book? I'd like to see a link too, and unbiased link.
Originally posted by johnnowak
For sure. There have been studies done that show Africans, on average, have lower IQs than Europeans. That's just how it goes. That's not to say someone from Africa can't be a genius of course.
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
However, I will also say that race as a scientific distinction probably does exist. To be consistent, I would say that, for instance, Arabs are in the "Caucasian" category, while Native Americans are in the "Asian" category--surely not the usual social distinctions, but definitely valid in a purely scientific context.

Phil,

you are a student at WSU, right? Why don't you go find a Anthropology Professor and ask them about Montegu's book? Or ask them about the "science" behind the concept of "race"? You seem to be an intelligent guy, so a little education on the subject never hurt anyone.
 
Sayhey, your comments on race are very well said (but I'll try to muddle things anyway). Studies of differences between races have shown that there are more differences between members of what we consider a race than between different races. These are differences in the genome sequence.

PoM, you mentioned how race can be useful to know how to dreadlock hair. And that is exactly right, because hair is part of how we socially define a race. But the utility of the race construct should be limited to the things by which we define it.

What the genome sequencing project is telling us is that there are far greater differences between two people living in a similar climate (Africa) aand looking visually the same. They share melanization of the skin, but neuropeptide releases may be different, enzyme kinetics skewed, etc, and these probably affect the mind and body in far greater ways than melanization.
 
I have read extensively on this subject and I agree completely with Sayhey. The term "race" is a misnomer and ideally should not be used to describe the differences between certain groups of human beings.

While I was studying in Japan I noticed that binge drinking appeared to be very popular among Japanese students as well as many working professionals. I would say that it is probably at least as common as in the US.
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Unfortunately, WSU is very highly ranked in the category of "Professors make themselves scarce".

I am not making this up. This is an actual ranking.

LOL, I've never heard of such a ranking! I believe you Phil, but that is an entirely new one to me. Anyway, I've tried to make some suggestions for those who want to know more on the subject.

Dros and yamabushi, you both seem to know a bit about this, perhaps you can persuade some folks that I can't?
 
Originally posted by jonapete2001
I dont get it. what is wrong with binge drinking? I do it every friday and saturday

You are in Green Bay and you only binge drink twice a week? You must be considered quite the oddity. :)
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
By definition, one cannot binge drink all the time.

Of course, you realize in this context binge drinking has a actual definition (or at least, a few):

"Henry Wechsler and his Harvard colleagues published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, in which they reported the results of a national survey on college student drinking. For men, "binge drinking" is defined as having 5 or more drinks in a row on a single occasion within the past two weeks, and for women as having 4 or more drinks in a row."

Others use a definition of just drinking to the exclusion of normal activities. Others say for an extended period of time.

So, it would be easy to "binge drink" 7 days a week with the 5 drink definition or the exclusion definition. The extended period would be hard to do more than a few times a week if the extended period lasted more than a day.

I know, I know... you were being funny. I just had to get all technical.
 
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