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Do MBP's really out last comparable Win PC's?
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I bought a rMBP top model 6 months ago and still run windows on it and it is so strong and sturdy and fast it is still hard to beat in terms of size and power.
To highlight this I just ordered a windows only lap top W650 custom built meta box Cleve with 3.7ghz has well and 16GB ran 1TB ssd and 1TB hdd for the same money. It has slightly better graphics but is thicker and has crap battery life compared to the mac.
I'd be happy with either but the mac has osx and can do everything the w650 can but looks twice as good doing it.
To highlight this I just ordered a windows only lap top W650 custom built meta box Cleve with 3.7ghz has well and 16GB ran 1TB ssd and 1TB hdd for the same money. It has slightly better graphics but is thicker and has crap battery life compared to the mac.
I'd be happy with either but the mac has osx and can do everything the w650 can but looks twice as good doing it.
Why that? Historically, Windows is updated much less frequently so a Mac will become obsolete sooner than a PC. Of course, this is changing now, where Windows is trying to copy much of OS X concepts. Windows itself is quite a slick and fast OS (its memory performance is on pair with OS X, sometimes faster, it has faster networking subsystems etc.)
I work retail PC support and I would not invest in a Windows 8 laptop.
The Windows 8 era has seen consumers beta testing buggy OEM gimmicks at retail prices, then getting stuck with the mistakes as the next model year rolls out.
The 2 in 1 marketing scheme is laughable at best, everything is made of plastic and the OS totters on the brink when loaded with ramshackle OEM drivers.
Then, to sweeten the deal Microsoft pushes out 8.1, effectively breaking a hilarious amount of OEM drivers, causing problems for an already confused and generally technologically challenged customer base.
What do we have to show for this torturous evolution? A touch screen? The Surface RT?
I put down 999 on a Macbook Air and I haven't looked back.
The Windows 8 era has seen consumers beta testing buggy OEM gimmicks at retail prices, then getting stuck with the mistakes as the next model year rolls out.
The 2 in 1 marketing scheme is laughable at best, everything is made of plastic and the OS totters on the brink when loaded with ramshackle OEM drivers.
Then, to sweeten the deal Microsoft pushes out 8.1, effectively breaking a hilarious amount of OEM drivers, causing problems for an already confused and generally technologically challenged customer base.
What do we have to show for this torturous evolution? A touch screen? The Surface RT?
I put down 999 on a Macbook Air and I haven't looked back.
No. You get what you pay for. Apple doesn't make cheap laptops, and yes the $299 special at BBY will not last, but you could buy 6 for the price on one MBP. I have a high end Sony i7 going into its sixths year. Only bought cheap before the Sony and yes they all quit around the 3 years point. One thing to consider is do you want the same laptop at the 6 year point or NEW technology.
Based on experience from engineering colleagues and family, I would say no, a Macbook is not better built than a comparably priced Windows PC (Thinkpads, higher end Sony VIAOs). Especially in terms of durability under harsher conditions, the Thinkpads (at least from 2007-2008) are much better built than the Macbooks and fully repairable.
I have sat on my Thinkpad (without a case), I have fallen on my Thinkpad when I slipped on the ice, waved the machine about whilst holding it one-handed by the far corner of the LCD screen and never had any problems with it, in fact even the battery was at 85% health after 3 years, as IBM/Lenovo know how to do the charge algorithm correctly (like Apple).
My professional opinion is that the reliability of even higher-quality laptops is partly luck after 3 years anyway: lead free solders and usage patterns whereby they go through many heat-up/cool-down cycles and frequent small mechanical shocks means that they are going to have a limited lifetime.
Apple uses the same components and same manufacturing lines as other laptop makers. When it comes to the design of the laptop for reliability - there are plenty of examples (early Macbook Air overheating, Mac cube, nVidia issues, cracking palm-rests) that show how inherent design faults effect reliability after a few years.
Having said that, I'm sure that most Apple laptops are fine after 3-5 years, just like many Windows laptops.
Of course many people buy Windows laptops at 30-50% of the price of a Macbook - these lower tier consumer laptops are not designed to the same standards, less thought is placed in the structural design, board flexing, thermal design. I believe this is why anecdotally there are so many more failed Windows machines.
Thanks for the insight guys, and as I expected, while the MBP is well built, others like Lenovo are comparable in quality. The shame is a lot of folks talk about poor Win PC quality, but the fact is a low/mid range Win PC is not a fair comparison to the MBP.
I guess we have to face the fact is all the lighter type consumer laptops are becoming more integrated and less user upgradeable, and it appears the business grade laptops like the Thinkpads and Lattitudes, etc., will remain somewhat user upgradeable/repairable for the near future.
I looked at the Lenovo's, and they appear to be well made, but I could not find one with the fit, feel, and battery life of the rMBP; however, some are somewhat close
I guess, the overall OSX experience and Apple Eco System are major considerations.
I guess we have to face the fact is all the lighter type consumer laptops are becoming more integrated and less user upgradeable, and it appears the business grade laptops like the Thinkpads and Lattitudes, etc., will remain somewhat user upgradeable/repairable for the near future.
I looked at the Lenovo's, and they appear to be well made, but I could not find one with the fit, feel, and battery life of the rMBP; however, some are somewhat close
I guess, the overall OSX experience and Apple Eco System are major considerations.
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All of my family are enjoying iMacs, Mac Minis, cMBPs for a long time, because I service/upgrade them for everyone. Memory, HDD/SSDs. Without me servicing them, they would look at the price they paid for the base model(way more than the windows equiv), and their next purchase that they would have had to make years ago, would have been a PC instead.
So yes, you can find light users - browsers, email, facebook, etc... that can still use old hardware. Heck, people are still using old XP machines. But that does not describe everyone. And anyone who would tell someone to get a base 13"rMBP to last 5-6 years, is really handing out bad advice.
And not you have the opposite end of the spectrum. Someone who is maxing out their system before hand. Prior to the rMBPs, you didn't have to plan 5 years out into the future, other than for the CPU. Now you do. Now you not only pay the Apple Tax, but the Apple upgrade margin gouging price as well. You and I look at it from opposite ends of the spectrum, I would rather a thicker machine where I can upgrade RAM and HDD/SSD.
The os and the customer service are big factors here. Windows just has a lot of issues and the age of the os really shows inspite of the fancy win 8 skin overtop. Underneath windows is still windows with its messy registry and file system. I'm sure a lot of windows oems are catching up to apple in terms of customer service but its just safe to go with apple because they are reliable and have a name to maintain.
If you dont mind windows. Then Lenovo, Asus, Samsung are all great choices given the same price point. For most of us there though, it's just hard to go back to windows. I'd rather dabble in Ubuntu than go back to windows. I only use windows to help out my relatives.
+1. Good project. Maybe I'll try to get osx on my eeepc.
It was a bit expensive for a netbook, but the op wanted to know about longevity. I'm telling him you don't have to spend $2500 for longevity.
I guess my point is, if you take care of a machine, almost any machine at any price point from any big manufacturer will be okay.
Sorry didn't see your post. Ya, they are really great. They are changing my logic board for me for free right now. I doubt Asus would do the same back in 2008. That's what justify the premium price for, the service. That's really the major difference and advantage apple has over the competitors in this regard.
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True, but with a PC, you can generally open the case and swap out a component that fails without having to ship it anywhere. Something that is increasingly less possible with Macs.
I don't know about that. As I understand it, the New Dell XPS 15 (9530) does not have a user replaceable battery. While the RAM is upgradeable on the Dell XPS-15 (L521X), you have to basically tear the computer almost all the way down to add RAM, a task not fit for the average user.
Actually it has nothing to do with this..
They have pretty much the same resale value model to model. You only have one apple macbook like you only have one a acer s7. Now if your comparing the every windows computer to only apple then yea better resale value.
Junk brought from day one is still junk.
Anyone who is would tell someone to get ANY machine to last 5-6 years is handing out bad advice. The reasonable change cycle for computers is 2-3 years - just as their warranty implies. You seem to be talking about 'power-users', people who use the computers for heavy duty work (and not just casual stuff) - those will always benefit from the hardware innovation and SHOULD get a new machine after 3 years most. In contrast, casual users will be more then fine even with 4GB RAM after 4 years. Sure, they might see some swapping after a few years, but it will not render their machine virtually unusable like the old HDD-based machines.
This is not correct, because the default configurations of the current lineup (base 13" with its 4GB RAM possible being an exception) have very reasonable specs which are already pushing the performance capabilities of the machine - unlike few years ago. You will NEVER be able to upgrade your cMBP with faster SSD or RAM, because it is technically impossible. Yes, you can put 16Gb on your cMBP at any time, while you are stuck with what was initially installed in the rMBP - but how many people will actually have their needs shift so dramatically that they would NEED this much RAM? This is by no means a common scenario. Overall, reduction of weight and increase of battery performance benefits ALL users (if it does not benefit you - why are you using a laptop in the first place), upgradeable RAM benefits only few ones.
Even more, I am more then sure than in a few years all laptops will feature non-replaceanble components. Not because of some evil corporation conspiracy, but simply because it just makes more sense with current technological progress. Computers are becoming ridiculously fast and components ridiculously cheap and reliable - its simpler and cheaper just to throw in a reasonable amount of RAM and seal the whole thing then deal with expansion boards. And the user benefits from reduced weight, dimensions and increased reliability (yes, soldered-on RAM is more reliable then DIMMs, because they do not have to deal with standards and can instead fine-tune the power delivery and circuitry to exactly match the specs of the installed modules, thus potentially reducing the stress on the module itself).
Again, you glossed over the part where I said I have extended the life of iMacs, a mac mini, and a cMBP for family members. Without these upgrades, the "non-power" users would have had to replace their systems by now. My family is on a 5-6 year upgrade cycle because I service/upgrade their computers. NOW, I have to tell them to pay A LOT more upfront to get the longevity they are used to in their machines, or go back to the rapid replacement rate of windows machines. Having me service their machines, to make them last longer is no longer an option. That stinks - IMHO, because apple is seeking ever thinner machines at the expense of the customer. The path matches your desire(hope you don't need more than 256Gigs of storage), but not all.
Apple's path matches your desire, but don't try to convince me that I should be happy when the path does not fit mine, nor the large number of family members who have enjoyed the Mac environment, due to the upgradability. Apple and I had a good thing going, but Apple doesn't seem to want to retain my family members anymore as customers, thanks to their money grab. Oh well, at least I'll be off the hook for family customer support. The last recommendation was for a family member to get a 13" cMBP, looks like that will be my last family member machine to support after another year or two.
Apple's path matches your desire, but don't try to convince me that I should be happy when the path does not fit mine, nor the large number of family members who have enjoyed the Mac environment, due to the upgradability. Apple and I had a good thing going, but Apple doesn't seem to want to retain my family members anymore as customers, thanks to their money grab. Oh well, at least I'll be off the hook for family customer support. The last recommendation was for a family member to get a 13" cMBP, looks like that will be my last family member machine to support after another year or two.
They insisted that I »might« have caused it myself in some magical way. Of course, you can ask Apple I wonder so aswell.
No, Macs don't necessarily last longer. What most here do is compare a very expensive MBP against a $300 PC you buy at Walmart. Make it a fair comparison and you'll see them lasting about the same amount of time.
Plus, it's not like Macs never fail. There are plenty of people who have had their MBP logic boards die on them.
That's ridiculous. Any Mac with an Intel processor, even the ones from 2006, are more than good enough for someone who just needs a computer for email, web browsing and basic word processing (which covers most computer users). Many of those computers are still in perfectly working order. Thinking that you have to replace your computer every 2-3 years is just foolish. Maybe in the 80s and 90s it was like that but not today... even with windows computers.
When I buy a computer, I expect it to last me at least 5 years. I laugh when I read posts on this board about people asking if they should upgrade their 2010 MBPs when they don't really do anything that taxes the machine at all. Throw an SSD in it and it'll feel better than new. The only reason I'm not still using my late 2006 MB for work is because 3GB RAM (max for my model) wasn't enough because I need to run virtual machines.
Plus, it's not like Macs never fail. There are plenty of people who have had their MBP logic boards die on them.
That's ridiculous. Any Mac with an Intel processor, even the ones from 2006, are more than good enough for someone who just needs a computer for email, web browsing and basic word processing (which covers most computer users). Many of those computers are still in perfectly working order. Thinking that you have to replace your computer every 2-3 years is just foolish. Maybe in the 80s and 90s it was like that but not today... even with windows computers.
When I buy a computer, I expect it to last me at least 5 years. I laugh when I read posts on this board about people asking if they should upgrade their 2010 MBPs when they don't really do anything that taxes the machine at all. Throw an SSD in it and it'll feel better than new. The only reason I'm not still using my late 2006 MB for work is because 3GB RAM (max for my model) wasn't enough because I need to run virtual machines.
Given that Crucial performed a survey a few years ago and found that more than twice as many people fear tinkering with their computers than touching a spider, I think you have to recognize that trading off upgradeability for improvements in size and weight was a reasonable decision for Apple to make.
Same here, being myself a long term Windows user I realized Windows was not a well designed system and began to use Linux, that was back in 2004, the first time I installed Linux on my PC, I could say "this definitely is a real operating system!", since then I fell in love with UNIX-like systems including MacOSX.
The downside of buying a Mac is that once you get used to it you cannot go back to a Windows machine, one year ago (after being using my iMac since 2010) I bought a Windows laptop and couldn't get use to Windows 8 and the cheap plastic Windows laptops are made of, not to mention the inaccurate trackpad, I returned it and ended up buying a rMBP
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And again, my entire family would fall under that classification. But yet they do have their machines tinkered with, by me.
Apple made the decisions because you have a thinner nutter in Ive(no upgradeable RAM in the 21" iMac?!?!?!?!?), and Apple also saw the stadiums full of cash they make in jipping people $100 each doubling of storage in the iPad. Combine those two together, and you have a perfect recipe to bilk customer for more mad cash by forcing you to pay up front for non-upgradeable Macs.
There is a tipping point. I know that some of my family is going to hit it on the next upgrade cycle.
This move by apple doesn't really effect you. Fine. But it does effect others. Trying to poo-poo it away doesn't solve any problem. It just reinforces apple's $$$ move, as people like you gladly hand over more, to get less.
Count, I think you misunderstood me. I am saying that the technology moved far enough so that upgrades are not that important anymore to be 'future-proof'. If your family is on 6 years upgrade cycle, then the last time they got an iMac was the first Core 2 Duo iMac in 2007. It had 1GB RAM. By 2010, 4GB RAM was pretty much a necessary amount, and - funnily enough - it was also the usually recommended RAM amount in 2012 as well. Because there is no reason to assume that there will be a dramatic jump in RAM requirements in the near future, the 8GB should be good to go for the next 6 years. Yes, by the end of the 6th year, you will see swapping (see my next point). CPU does not matter, because even the Airs low-voltage unit will be more then enough to work with browser/mail/office etc. for the next 6 or more years. Same fro graphics. Now, storage. Yes, current models have less storage. However, its faster then anything else you can get for the computer. It is faster then the SATA3 interface. You will be physically unable to upgrade your laptop/desktop for something better. And since its so fast, a minimal amount of swap in a few years won't matter either. So - get your family a base 21" iMac with a 256GB SSD and plug in a 2TB USB3 drive for photos etc. I ensure you that in 2019 that computer will be MORE usable then the fully upgraded 2007 iMac in 2013. Basically, what I am saying is that the situation has changed from few years ago. Computers are getting powerful faster then the software demands it.
I am just saying that computers can break down. I would not rely on any computer to last 4 years, nor do I see a need for that. I but a new one every two years - it costs me less then your 5 year strategy - after selling the old one, I have effectively paid around $200-250. And needless to say, after 5 years I have a faster and more flexible machine (+warranty) then your 5 year old model.
NP. Some of them are on year 4 of a planned 6 year upgrade cycle. One is lucky to have a 2008 cMBP C2D that can take 8 gigs of RAM. So they will easily make 6 years. I just upgraded a C2D mini with SSD and 4gigs of RAM for the non-demanding in-laws. They thought I gave them a new computer with all their old stuff in it.
I used to be able to take pride in recommending Macs to the family and bringing them all along as technology affordably allowed. Sadly, that is not longer the case. The price of Macs in general are pushing it for most, now add on the futureproofing upgrades at outrageous markups that one is forced to buy upfront, and all my work has gone for naught.
Enjoy the money you make off me Mr. Cook, because you are losing the rest of my family because of this shift.