Do the newer M3 MBAs still have the same eye strain issues?

[budfoot]

I have a M1 16inch MBP. I don’t need that power. I tried last year to replace it with a 15” M2 MBA. The eye strain/refresh issue gave me headaches and I had to revert.

Have they changed the display at all? Or is it still an issue?

 

[Bigwaff]

Have they changed the display at all?

No.

Or is it still an issue?

Only you can say.

 

[thelookingglass]

Mine is fine, but I never had problems with the MBA lineup. The mini LED MBPs on the other hand gave me problems.

 

[High IQ Person]

I can assure you that the M3 MacBook Air still has eyestrain issues. Lots of people have this issue due to dithering sensitivity.

Apple sources low quality crap displays from China, Taiwan and Japan rather than the vastly superior Samsung/LG displays. To compensate for low quality crap displays, Apple uses dithering to achieve a higher-scale RGB profile using an 8-bit monitor. You don't notice these issues with the iPhones, because they actually use high quality Korean displays and not crappy china and Japan ones.

 

[smalllanguangemodel]

It depends on the user.
I had issues with the M1 mba, but none with the M2 and M3 mba.

 

[za9ra22]

I have a M1 16inch MBP. I don’t need that power. I tried last year to replace it with a 15” M2 MBA. The eye strain/refresh issue gave me headaches and I had to revert.

Have they changed the display at all? Or is it still an issue?

As @Bigwaff said, the screens are the same, driven the same way, so if you had an issue with a 15-inch M2, you likely would with a 15-inch M3.

Personally, I don't have any issues whatsoever with mine, set at about 40% brightness and default resolution. I suspect that would be the same for most users, but it would appear not all. Since you were able to try an M2 last year, can you repeat that with an M3 and see how it goes? That would seem the most sensible approach rather than anything else.

It doesn't have anything to do with 'low quality panels' from China and Japan... it's about an individual's sensitivity to certain display characteristics. There have been a steady stream of complaints of eye strain issues with just about every display, including the most popular and expensive ones, since computing began.

The other question is.... in what way is the 16-inch MBP too powerful?

 

[krspkbl]

It's a personal thing. Some peoples eyes are more sensitive. I always see people complain about OLED screens but I don't understand it because they look fine to me. No flickering or any noticeable issues.

The M3 Air took me a couple days to adjust to 60Hz as I'm used to working on a 144Hz monitor but other than that it's been great.

Is the M1 MBP a 120Hz display? It might be the Variable Refresh Rate that is bothering you? My G-sync monitor can sometimes flicker brightness (I think it's the brightness) when a program is making the refresh rate adjust. I have to cap the FPS in the Nvidia control panel to 59fps and select fixed refresh rate. It only seems to happen in programs such as photo or video editors. I don't notice it in games when fps bounces up and down. If it's the VRR then you won't have that problem with the Air as it's fixed to 60Hz. Edit: I read your comment wrong

 

[Wig321]

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[High IQ Person]

I hate my M1 16” MBP. It destroys my eyes, I didn’t realise for a while it was the cause of my eye strain.

Now testing a 15” M3 Air (with StillColor to disable dithering).

In my experience, StillColor does not work on the XDR mini-led displays which the Pro’s have.

GitHub - aiaf/Stillcolor: Disable temporal dithering on your Mac with this lightweight menu bar app. Designed for Apple silicon Macs.

Disable temporal dithering on your Mac with this lightweight menu bar app. Designed for Apple silicon Macs. - aiaf/Stillcolor

github.com

According to one of the members on ledstrain, Stillcolor does work on the pro models, but there’s a slight visual bug with the grey color. I need to read about it in more detail.

That said, the cheap Garbo China miniLEDs in the Pro models use a garbage PWM implementation that can cause eye strain.

I recommend you try still color on the Air.

 

[Technerd108]

According to one of the members on ledstrain, Stillcolor does work on the pro models, but there’s a slight visual bug with the grey color. I need to read about it in more detail.

That said, the cheap Garbo China miniLEDs in the Pro models use a garbage PWM implementation that can cause eye strain.

I recommend you try still color on the Air.

While it is true Apple sources most of the components in Macs from China that does not mean they are garbage. Your comments feel Sino phobic and really aren't needed. Most of the most expensive high tech equipment is made in China. China can make the very best of anything as they have now a strong, mature, manufacturing base as well as tons of scientist and engineers. Most Windows laptops are assembled if not completely made in China. Quality depends on price. If you pay enough anything made from China will be as good or better than anything else.

That all being said the BOE panels that Apple is using are obviously cheaper and of a lower quality than manufacturer's like LG and Samsung BUT Apple is investing in BOE and helping them with their designs and tech so they can get better panels, cheaper but it takes time for BOE to reach parity with LG and Samsung and they are not there yet.

Personally I have moved away from Apple products due to where they manufacture and their close ties with the CCP. I feel like Tim Cook is all in on China despite the fact the Chinese are direct competitors to Apple and want to replace Apple with Huawei as soon as they can. Most Windows OEM's may use multiple factories including Chinese ones and source components from all over the world. They are not as invested in China or as vulnerable as Apple. If you don't want a computer at least made in part in China you don't have a lot of choices. You can get a Samsung GalaxyBook made in Vietnam but how much better is Vietnam over China when they are both Communist countries?

That all being said, as others have stated the display tech has changed with M series processors and how they display as well as 8 bit and dithering on the IPS screens. So PWM has not changed at all in M3 series laptops. Unfortunately for those who are sensitive Apple doesn't seem to care?

Other companies like Asus use software to help with flicker on their Oled screens and many other's do to. PWM has changed on Samsung phones as well.

If you were sensitive to any MacBook screen on M2 or higher than nothing has yet changed on the screens so you would likely still be sensitive.

 

[High IQ Person]

While it is true Apple sources most of the components in Macs from China that does not mean they are garbage. Your comments feel Sino phobic and really aren't needed. Most of the most expensive high tech equipment is made in China. China can make the very best of anything as they have now a strong, mature, manufacturing base as well as tons of scientist and engineers. Most Windows laptops are assembled if not completely made in China. Quality depends on price. If you pay enough anything made from China will be as good or better than anything else.

That all being said the BOE panels that Apple is using are obviously cheaper and of a lower quality than manufacturer's like LG and Samsung BUT Apple is investing in BOE and helping them with their designs and tech so they can get better panels, cheaper but it takes time for BOE to reach parity with LG and Samsung and they are not there yet.

Personally I have moved away from Apple products due to where they manufacture and their close ties with the CCP. I feel like Tim Cook is all in on China despite the fact the Chinese are direct competitors to Apple and want to replace Apple with Huawei as soon as they can. Most Windows OEM's may use multiple factories including Chinese ones and source components from all over the world. They are not as invested in China or as vulnerable as Apple. If you don't want a computer at least made in part in China you don't have a lot of choices. You can get a Samsung GalaxyBook made in Vietnam but how much better is Vietnam over China when they are both Communist countries?

That all being said, as others have stated the display tech has changed with M series processors and how they display as well as 8 bit and dithering on the IPS screens. So PWM has not changed at all in M3 series laptops. Unfortunately for those who are sensitive Apple doesn't seem to care?

Other companies like Asus use software to help with flicker on their Oled screens and many other's do to. PWM has changed on Samsung phones as well.

If you were sensitive to any MacBook screen on M2 or higher than nothing has yet changed on the screens so you would likely still be sensitive.

Sourcing assembly services and simple manufactured components from China is okay, but they completely fall behind competing countries in more sophisticated high-end components such as displays, memory, logic fab, etc.

The only complex tech they lead in is LFP batteries, and that was due to flagrant IP infringement. While the rest of the world was waiting for the LFP patents to expire, China ignored them and manufactured + sold them domestically for 2 decades, giving them a large lead over other countries.

There is no reason for Apple to go with China for any complex components such as the display except to cut costs. This issue could’ve been 99% mitigated if they went with OLED like some Windows manufacurers did.

As for BOE, the only reason why they’re still competitive somewhat in OLED is because of blatant tech theft. Says a lot about Apple that they still work with them.

I agree with you that Apple’s pandering to China is spineless, unethical and sickening. All that moral superiority and virtue signaling only applies to inconsequential issues like gender identity. However, that arrogant self-righteous attitude goes right out the window when it comes to sales.

 

[gregmac19]

If you don't want a computer at least made in part in China you don't have a lot of choices. You can get a Samsung GalaxyBook made in Vietnam but how much better is Vietnam over China when they are both Communist countries?

I think I understand the sentiment, but I think that Vietnam is much less a threat to the free world than China.

 

[bzgnyc2]

While it is true Apple sources most of the components in Macs from China that does not mean they are garbage. Your comments feel Sino phobic and really aren't needed. Most of the most expensive high tech equipment is made in China. China can make the very best of anything as they have now a strong, mature, manufacturing base as well as tons of scientist and engineers. Most Windows laptops are assembled if not completely made in China. Quality depends on price. If you pay enough anything made from China will be as good or better than anything else.

That all being said the BOE panels that Apple is using are obviously cheaper and of a lower quality than manufacturer's like LG and Samsung BUT Apple is investing in BOE and helping them with their designs and tech so they can get better panels, cheaper but it takes time for BOE to reach parity with LG and Samsung and they are not there yet.

Personally I have moved away from Apple products due to where they manufacture and their close ties with the CCP. I feel like Tim Cook is all in on China despite the fact the Chinese are direct competitors to Apple and want to replace Apple with Huawei as soon as they can. Most Windows OEM's may use multiple factories including Chinese ones and source components from all over the world. They are not as invested in China or as vulnerable as Apple. If you don't want a computer at least made in part in China you don't have a lot of choices. You can get a Samsung GalaxyBook made in Vietnam but how much better is Vietnam over China when they are both Communist countries?

That all being said, as others have stated the display tech has changed with M series processors and how they display as well as 8 bit and dithering on the IPS screens. So PWM has not changed at all in M3 series laptops. Unfortunately for those who are sensitive Apple doesn't seem to care?

Other companies like Asus use software to help with flicker on their Oled screens and many other's do to. PWM has changed on Samsung phones as well.

If you were sensitive to any MacBook screen on M2 or higher than nothing has yet changed on the screens so you would likely still be sensitive.

Thanks for sharing this context and background. Quick question -- have you looked at the Framework laptops? I understand they are made in Taiwan.

I also notice from your signature that you went with Samsung and HP for your laptops. Are these made in Korea or Taiwan?

 

[DisplaysShouldntBeTVs]

According to one of the members on ledstrain, Stillcolor does work on the pro models

It does not work on mini-LED Pro models. The colors on a gradient test image stay around "fake 10bit" even after disabling dithering on mini-LED Macs — which is different from the more significant change in colors (and visible reduction to 8bit) that happens on the more "normal" LCD MacBooks like the Airs and Touch Bar Pros.

It is suspected that the display TCON (timing controller) itself on mini-LED MBPs is performing its own additional FRC dithering to support additional calibration for "reference modes" (which mini-LED Mac laptops uniquely use instead of a menu of normal color profiles)

This is also not because the mini-LED display is "true 10bit", as it was recently discovered in the Stillcolor thread on the other forum that files for TCON configuration per each laptop are present in software update packages. The mini-LED Macs are listed as "8bit" in these files, just like the Airs.

This implies that mini-LED Macs still do not have true 10bit panels, and another component of the system is still applying FRC dithering in a way that is not as easy to disable from the OS compared to other Apple Silicon Macs.

However, Stillcolor does work on LCD M1/M2 MBP models (specifically the ones with Touch Bar, NOT the notch ones) — in fact the app actually has most effective and noticeable result on the Touch Bar models to me even compared to the Airs!

(Just be sure to disable the Touch Bar strip itself, because the Touch Bar is a flickering OLED display.)

 

[High IQ Person]

I’m

It does not work on mini-LED Pro models. The colors on a gradient test image stay around "fake 10bit" even after disabling dithering on mini-LED Macs — which is different from the more significant change in colors that happens on LCD Macs.

It is suspected that the display TCON (timing controller) itself on mini-LED MBPs is performing its own additional FRC dithering to support additional calibration for "reference modes" (which mini-LED Mac laptops uniquely use instead of a menu of normal color profiles)

This is also not because the mini-LED display is "true 10bit", as it was recently discovered in the Stillcolor thread on the other forum that files for TCON configuration per each laptop are present in software update packages. The mini-LED Macs are listed as "8bit" in these files, just like the Airs.

This implies that mini-LED Macs still do not have true 10bit panels, and another component of the system is still applying FRC dithering in a way that is not as easy to disable from the OS compared to other Apple Silicon Macs.

However, Stillcolor does work on LCD M1/M2 Pro models (specifically the ones with Touch Bar) — in fact the app actually has most effective and noticeable result on the Touch Bar models to me even compared to the Airs!

(Just be sure to disable the Touch Bar strip itself, because the Touch Bar is a flickering OLED display.)

that’s unfortunate. Seems the dithering issue can only be solved if Apple stops being cheap and goes with an authentic 10-bit display. Hopefully it comes with the OLED Mac’s.