Does a 13" retina MacBook Pro makes sense?

[pgiguere1]

There is nothing wrong with doubt but in the end if the day we have to look at the technical aspect to ascertain feasibility.

I can't rely on doubt as much as I can rely on hardware in short

Well his doubt did come from hardware feasibility.

It's safe to assume that since the screen isn't the only component that draws a lot of power, a shift to IGZO would make it possible to have a smaller battery but probably not enough for it to leave space for a discrete graphics card and its cooling system. Even it if it did you'd have to consider that the discrete graphics card would itself draw more power, requiring more juice and canceling the effect of the shift to an IGZO display. So in the end it would end up with a sub-par battery life which isn't something Apple would like.

You'd also have to consider the price. It would be very close to the 15" rMBP's. If cMBPs were discontinued now there would be a huge price gap between the MBAs and the 15" rMBP that would have to be filled by something. I think there's a market for a computer with a better display/CPU than the MBA but for a price that's below the 15" rMBP's.

And finally, if they were to put IGZO displays in the 13" rMBP, why wouldn't they have put them in the 15" as well? That would have allowed a better battery life. Either they're too hard to produce in large quantities or it's too pricey to do so. The fact that they would be 13" instead of 15" wouldn't change that.

 

[nuckinfutz]

Well his doubt did come from hardware feasibility.

It's safe to assume that since the screen isn't the only component that draws a lot of power, a shift to IGZO would make it possible to have a smaller battery but probably not enough for it to leave space for a discrete graphics card and its cooling system. Even it if it did you'd have to consider that the discrete graphics card would itself draw more power, requiring more juice and canceling the effect of the shift to an IGZO display. So in the end it would end up with a sub-par battery life which isn't something Apple would like.

You'd also have to consider the price. It would be very close to the 15" rMBP's. If cMBPs were discontinued now there would be a huge price gap between the MBAs and the 15" rMBP that would have to be filled by something. I think there's a market for a computer with a better display/CPU than the MBA but for a price that's below the 15" rMBP's.

And finally, if they were to put IGZO displays in the 13" rMBP, why wouldn't they have put them in the 15" as well? That would have allowed a better battery life. Either they're too hard to produce in large quantities or it's too pricey to do so. The fact that they would be 13" instead of 15" wouldn't change that.

The display consumes the lion's share of power. A move to an IGZO backplane is desired for a few reasons.

1. The power consumption is less
2. Complexity of panel construction is lessened
3. The cost increase is marginal compared to a-Si panels

Joel Hruska of Extreme Tech covers it nicely

The exact amount of power savings depends on the types of LCDs and the characteristics of each, but the difference can be significant. Sharp’s public comparison of two 11-inch 1200×800 panels — one built using amorphous silicon, one using IGZO — shows the IZGO panel drawing just 37% as much power as the amorphous silicon panel (factoring in both the panel and backlight).

A 63% reduction in power is a big deal folks. However the obvious question is "can Sharp deliver these in quantity?"

Sharp begins mass production in April

Next many are underestimating how quickly Sharp wants to ramp production.

This is a very rapid transition.

 

[skaertus]

I somehow doubt Apple's going to switch screens by the fall. If they were going to go IGZO, they would've went IGZO.

I agree. I doubt they will switch screens now.

EDIT: And a lot of the power consumption issues for a retina display come from recalculating all the images into the correct resolutions. It's not simple work.

I thought it was done by the software and that it didn't have too much impact on the battery life. Does it mean that the battery runs for more time if the MacBook Pro retina is used in 2880x1800 non-retina resolution? Has anybody has actually tested it?

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Maybe they will make 13" rMBP tad bit thicker than 15"rMBP? Wouldn't this allow quad-core & dGPU?

It doesn't seem like something that Apple would do.

IMO I see Apple keeping MBA the way it is and adding 13" to rMBP line. Considering that they dropped 17", maybe 13-15" will replace 15-17" of prosumer line.

I don't think Apple will do it. If Apple charges more for its laptops, it will lose some customers. A 15" retina laptop is not equal to a 17" non-retina, and a 13" retina is not equal to a 15" non-retina. Apple can't just replace these laptops and expect people to keep buying them. The 13" MacBook Pro is the best-selling Apple laptop for a reason: it's the cheapest one of the Pro line. Charging more for this laptop (even if it adds a retina display) doesn't sound like good business for me.

 

[skaertus]

I doubt they will be similarly priced. The Air is Apple's new entry level machine. That used to be the white Macbook, then later the 13" MBP. I think that the 13" MBP has been held back somewhat because of that. Apple wanted to keep it priced low. It actually started as the 13" Aluminum Macbook. It even has a lower resolution screen than the 13" Air which costs the same.

I think that a redesigned 13" MBP would be more of a high end ultraportable. Quad core CPU possibly, or dual core with a low end dedicated GPU. More of a Vaio Z competitor. I think dual core full voltage on the base model and quad core on the high end model is most likely, just like the Z. It will probably have a base price of $1600-$1800, while the 13" Air starts at $1199.

Might be. But then won't Apple lose customers by keeping the prices of the 13" and 15" Pro models so high? Does it make sense from a business point of view?

Rather than put a retina display in the Air, I think they would rather drop the price even farther. It will probably eventually get a retina display, but I think that's a couple of years away.

I have no doubt that the Air will eventually get a retina display. The Zenbook, Air's biggest competitor, already has an IPS 1920x1080 display. Intel is announcing the Haswell processors as very power-efficient. Maybe we can get a retina Air when Haswell comes out?

 

[brentsg]

Might be. But then won't Apple lose customers by keeping the prices of the 13" and 15" Pro models so high? Does it make sense from a business point of view?

They'll sell them faster than they can produce them for some time, even at a higher price. When supply constraints work themselves out, they can start to trim the price point.

 

[xfs]

IMHO, Apple will drop the 13" MacBook Pro in favor of a beefed-up 13" MacBook Air with a retina display. Before 2009, Apple did not have a 13" MacBook Pro, and it may well drop it in favor of the Air. Any thoughts on this?

It is one of the best selling Macbook Pros, they will never drop it just like that.

 

[clyde2801]

Apple release the first MBA in 2008 as a portent of things to come. It took two years for the technology to catch up and convert the Air from the CEO's laptop to the entry level laptop for everyone.

I think the 15" rMBP serves the same function as the original Air, serving as an example of where Apple wants to take everyone.

I've been reading the true nerds talking about processor, power and graphics advances promised by Haswell and especially Broadwell, which comes in (oddly enough) roughly two years. Possibly Broadwell will have decent enough integrated graphics that will enable it to power a 13" retina screen with no power consumption, performance or heat concerns. And by that time, I would expect the screens to be available in quantity.

I looked over windows laptops with IPS displays, and it's maddening. Sony and Dell seem to have 400 models for sale at the same time...wait, was I wanting the SV450EX or the SE470VX? Frak! Makes me appreciate the simple apple approach.

When the technology catches up, you'll have consumer Airs and prosumer/professional Pros. Retinas on the Pros and hopefully at least better quality or IPS displays on the Airs.

I think the brouhaha over the Retina display will force screen manufacturers to up their game, and that should ultimately benefit everybody...though a windows fanboy would rather cough up blood than admit it.

 

[SDAVE]

I have a feeling Apple will discontinue the 13" MBP soon and either release a 13" rMBP or just keep the Air and make it faster than the 13" MBP.

 

[beamer8912]

It is one of the best selling Macbook Pros, they will never drop it just like that.

I don't think he means drop the 13" form factor entirely, rather drop the 13" MBP form specifically. As it stands, the MBA is selling incredibly well now. There is very little reason to get a 13" MBP over a 13" Air w/ the small exception (but still significant for many) of user-upgradability.

Power, features, resolution, form, price....the air matches or exceeds the MBP on almost these.

I agree with several others on here. I believe we'll see the cMBP disappear and the air will become the typical consumer purchase. The rMBP will become the new Pro's with the cMBP being removed all together.

 

[andrezuppe]

My bet, also according to the banchmarks that appeared some days ago for the next retina mbp 13:

Base model:
2.9 Ghz Dual core i7
4GB RAM
128GB Flash Storage
Intel HD 4000 graphics
BTO option for 8 GB RAM / More flash storage (256GB or 512GB)

Top model:
2.1Ghz Quad Core i7
8GB RAM
256GB Flash Storage
Intel HD 4000 graphics
BTO options for 16GB RAM, 512GB and 768GB Flash Storage

I think they 'll put a low storage flash for "ready to buy" models in order to make a quite good difference from the retina 15" ones...

Note about the graphic card: My hope is that they consider to put a GT650 - 512MB (that is still inferior from the 15" retina because it has 1GB) using the space gained from removing Superdrive, but I really doubt it, if mountain lion will solve the scrolling problem with HD4000.


I have no minimal idea about prices, because I live in Italy, and here they are high and crazy!! :-(

Bye

Andrea

 

[skaertus]

Well, this is for the people who are still skeptical about a retina resolution in MacBook Airs:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/31/samsung-Series 9-WQHD-Ultrabook-matte-display/

Samsung has managed to put a 2560x1440 display into a Series 9 ultrabook. Yes, it is a 13-inch laptop thin and light as the MacBook Air, and it has a resolution which qualifies for retina, as it matches the pixel density of the Retina MacBook Pro. The Samsung model is just a prototype for now, but it shows that it is possible to cram a retina resolution into a laptop similar to a MacBook Air. And that kind of laptop will soon be ready for mass production.

 

[Stetrain]

Well, this is for the people who are still skeptical about a retina resolution in MacBook Airs:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/31/samsung-Series 9-WQHD-Ultrabook-matte-display/

Samsung has managed to put a 2560x1440 display into a Series 9 ultrabook. Yes, it is a 13-inch laptop thin and light as the MacBook Air, and it has a resolution which qualifies for retina, as it matches the pixel density of the Retina MacBook Pro. The Samsung model is just a prototype for now, but it shows that it is possible to cram a retina resolution into a laptop similar to a MacBook Air. And that kind of laptop will soon be ready for mass production.

Producing a one-off prototype doesn't mean much. You could easily do that with a display that has a successful yield rate of 1%. That's the same reason you see the TV makers showing off huge OLED and 4K displays every year that never make it to market.

The real proof that the displays are feasible is the 15" Retina MBP. 220dpi 15" LCDs shipping in real quantity in real products is a big step forward. Achieving the same dpi at a 13" size should definitely be possible.

Analysts have pointed to the expected higher demand of the 13" over the 15" as one of the reasons they are taking longer to ramp up production.

 

[yanksrock100]

Well, this is for the people who are still skeptical about a retina resolution in MacBook Airs:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/31/samsung-Series 9-WQHD-Ultrabook-matte-display/

Samsung has managed to put a 2560x1440 display into a Series 9 ultrabook. Yes, it is a 13-inch laptop thin and light as the MacBook Air, and it has a resolution which qualifies for retina, as it matches the pixel density of the Retina MacBook Pro. The Samsung model is just a prototype for now, but it shows that it is possible to cram a retina resolution into a laptop similar to a MacBook Air. And that kind of laptop will soon be ready for mass production.

I saw this too, but I think it would just make more sense for Apple to give the 13 inch Macbook pro the Retina treatment. Remember, Phil's speech was about what makes a "Next Gen Macbook Pro". It may be possible for the Air, but I personally believe it will be a year or 2. The 13 inch Pro is next in line, and the Airs will eventually follow.

 

[skaertus]

Producing a one-off prototype doesn't mean much. You could easily do that with a display that has a successful yield rate of 1%. That's the same reason you see the TV makers showing off huge OLED and 4K displays every year that never make it to market.

Well, at least Samsung showed off something. I don't think why it's so hard to believe that the MacBook Air may get a retina display in the next months (especially after the release of Haswell).

Analysts have pointed to the expected higher demand of the 13" over the 15" as one of the reasons they are taking longer to ramp up production.

That's probably true. Still, the demand for iPads is even higher, and Apple released a retina version of it before any of the Macs.

 

[Tankmaze]

...though a windows fanboy would rather cough up blood than admit it.

Ha. I am really surprised that it took this long for a high dpi monitor to be available (the RMBP). I'm thinking that other PC manufacturers can push this technology if they want to, and only Apple currently that is pushing it.

 

[skaertus]

Ha. I am really surprised that it took this long for a high dpi monitor to be available (the RMBP). I'm thinking that other PC manufacturers can push this technology if they want to, and only Apple currently that is pushing it.

Me too. I remember that in 1993 I bought a desktop PC, and it came with a 386 DX processor running at 33 MHz, 4 MB RAM, a 120 MB HD and a 1024x768 screen. It's surprising that almost twenty years later I can buy a laptop with a CPU with two cores and hyperthreading (and a billion other enhancements) and with a clock which is almost 100x higher, with 1,000x more RAM, with an SSD with 1,000x the size of the HD, and, still, a resolution of only 1366x768, which is the 16:9 version of the 1024x768 resolution I had on my 19-year old desktop PC.