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Does Snow Leopard support the *critical* SSD "TRIM" command?
- Thread starter winterspan
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So much for "Macs support the cutting edge features" claim. I purchased a Mac because it's supposed to support the latest technologies. Well, my SSD isn't supported, but Microsoft looks to support it just fine with Windows 7. I guess I need to try bootcamp to get support for it. LAME!!!!
Die-hard Mac lover here....... but gotta say Apple is really droppin the ball on this one here.....
SSD's are gonna be coming mainstream in 1-2 years, especially laptops of Apple's price point (high-end). iPod touch has them. iPhone does. iPad too. Why cant Apple engineer a solution to OS X natively supporting TRIM ?!??!
SSD's are gonna be coming mainstream in 1-2 years, especially laptops of Apple's price point (high-end). iPod touch has them. iPhone does. iPad too. Why cant Apple engineer a solution to OS X natively supporting TRIM ?!??!
TRIM is something that won't be needed in the future anyway. As SSD start to "clean" themselves without software, TRIM like features will be OS independent.
That may indeed be true. But where does that leave those of us who have today's current Generation SSD's ?? Before their get even more advanced and can 'self-clean' ?? I hope not screwed..... :\
I myself have an Intel G2 SSD, so hopefully a firemware update mite give it this functionality....
Occasionally use Disk Utility to "restore" your main drive to a backup drive, erase your main drive with zero out all data as an option, then "restore" the backup back to the main drive.
Your drive will be faster than any "trimmed" drive over time this way.
It's the same boat as a mechanical drive that slows over time due to fragging. Defrag could make it better, but restore/wipe/restore would make it much faster.
Snow Leopard doesn't support TRIM because Apple doesn't sell any computers with SSDs that support TRIM.
Let me fix that for you:
Apple doesn't sell any computers with SSDs that support TRIM, because Snow Leopard doesn't support TRIM.
So, a little about my experience with a Crucial CT256M225...
The latest firmware does have garbage collection and AFAICT, it works pretty fine. I'm not really worried about TRIM. 1916 seems to have pretty decent performance. Overall, the speed is awesome and pretty consistent.
I have noticed that very large file transfers (I had a 49+GB vm disk image in a single file) do seem to choke down after a while. I eventually converted that to 2GB split files in the hopes that the next time I need to restore that it'll perform better. I'm not entirely convinced that there isn't some issues in the OS affecting very large file transfers.
I'm more likely to look at drives that are not Indilinx based in the future. It took Crucial forever to get the 1916 fixes out. And at least some of that I lay at the feet of Indilinx.
Anyone considering SSD needs to research carefully and understand the pros, cons and reviews of the various manufacturers. It can be a great upgrade, and it can be very disappointing if the shine wears off.
Anyone moving to Windows based solely on the lack of TRIM support in OS X is out of their mind. I can understand if that's one of many factors.
Agreed. Moving to windows just for SSD support non-sense. I may start doing the full zero-all-data erase then restore option to keep things in virgin condition. Time consuming, but are we sure this is effective??
Also, i read somewhere that some of Crucials SSD's were actually Intel SSD inside, with Intel controller. I guess some are still Indilinx based... ?
They are mostly, from what I can tell, Indilinx, based. The new one, the RC300, I think it the model, has very good reviews and seems to offer the best performance. Mind you, I'm only looking at 256GB+ drives.
The GC works just fine, don't bother zeroing it out, you're just spending a lot of time for little reward. In day to day use, since 1916, it's faster than batsh*t on a greased rail.
Well 10.6.3 is Officially out yesterday.... and unless i'm as blind as a bat I can confirm there are no changes related to SSD's/TRIM
So whats the general consensus about keeping our SSD's in tip-top condition? Format and re-image them once or twice a year?
So whats the general consensus about keeping our SSD's in tip-top condition? Format and re-image them once or twice a year?
Well my advice would be to partition your drive such that you have at least an additional 10-20% extra free space dedicated for garbage collection. Also make sure you don't skimp out when buying your SSD. Get a high-end intel/ocz drive or similar that already has decent garbage collection support. Other than that I suppose it might be a good idea to re-image your drive every now and then but it completely depends on your workload (Lots of small random writes = BAD
). For most people who stick to the above I imagine it would be unnecessary though.Adam
OK, I'm confused.....
Everyone keeps saying to combat fragmentation of our expensive SSD's, do a Carbon Copy/Super Duper clone of your SSD, then erase/reformat it, then restore it from the backup copy once or twice per year to get back that Virgin SSD performance.
This is all good and fine, and easy to do for me, as I already keep my original Apple/Hitachi 160 GB HD in an external USB enclosure and clone it to my internal Intel 160 GB G2 SSD once per week as my backup solution. Many of you are implying that you simply erase/reformat the SSD, then restore it from the backup. This too is actually easy (but time consuming), since I can easily boot my MacBook Pro from the USB External HD and reformat the internal SSD and then do the Carbon Copy Clone restore.
HOWEVER, AFAIK, when use Disk Utility to erase/reformat a disk, you just reformat the file system (initialize a new HFS+ file system, deleting the old file catalog, etc). The underlying physical hardware is still blissfully unaware of any such reformat action, isn't it?!? Disk Utility is unaware that in-fact an SSD is being reformatted and should therefore take additional steps to instruct the SSD to physically clean itself (mark all clusters/blocks as free)!!
To prove this, consider ProSoft Eng Data Rescue software... This is a tool used to "un-erase" HD's and recover files. When you 'accidentally' delete that important file, Data Rescue manually scans the disk, sector by sector, block by block, and tries to 'reconstitute' the contents of the file. I have successfully used this product before to recover files from a corrupted HFS+ file systems and on an accidentally deleted HFS+ volume. However, it goes on further to say:
MEANING: even doing an erase/reformat of our SSD's are in fact NOT clearing the data itself (mark all clusters/blocks as free)!!! After all, we can simply run a tool like Data Rescue on our SSD's, and wouldn't it dig and mine our SSD's sector by sector, block by block and recover tons of stuff ?? Ideally it SHOULDN'T, because we want our SSD's to be truly 'reset' in a virgin blank/empty state!! I have done it myself, and can attest that reformatting a HFS+ file system does NOT erase the data on the disk --- so why would it suddenly do it for an SSD ??? Further more, erasing our SSD's with 111111's is no solution either, because that actually fills it up to the brim with data (11111111111111's), not mark the sectors/blocks as free. The only thing overwriting 1111111111111's to our SSD accomplishes is making it impossible to recover data from using traditional tools.
Please correct me if i'm wrong, but
Apple, you really need to get SSD TRIM support in here..........
Everyone keeps saying to combat fragmentation of our expensive SSD's, do a Carbon Copy/Super Duper clone of your SSD, then erase/reformat it, then restore it from the backup copy once or twice per year to get back that Virgin SSD performance.
This is all good and fine, and easy to do for me, as I already keep my original Apple/Hitachi 160 GB HD in an external USB enclosure and clone it to my internal Intel 160 GB G2 SSD once per week as my backup solution. Many of you are implying that you simply erase/reformat the SSD, then restore it from the backup. This too is actually easy (but time consuming), since I can easily boot my MacBook Pro from the USB External HD and reformat the internal SSD and then do the Carbon Copy Clone restore.
HOWEVER, AFAIK, when use Disk Utility to erase/reformat a disk, you just reformat the file system (initialize a new HFS+ file system, deleting the old file catalog, etc). The underlying physical hardware is still blissfully unaware of any such reformat action, isn't it?!? Disk Utility is unaware that in-fact an SSD is being reformatted and should therefore take additional steps to instruct the SSD to physically clean itself (mark all clusters/blocks as free)!!
To prove this, consider ProSoft Eng Data Rescue software... This is a tool used to "un-erase" HD's and recover files. When you 'accidentally' delete that important file, Data Rescue manually scans the disk, sector by sector, block by block, and tries to 'reconstitute' the contents of the file. I have successfully used this product before to recover files from a corrupted HFS+ file systems and on an accidentally deleted HFS+ volume. However, it goes on further to say:
MEANING: even doing an erase/reformat of our SSD's are in fact NOT clearing the data itself (mark all clusters/blocks as free)!!! After all, we can simply run a tool like Data Rescue on our SSD's, and wouldn't it dig and mine our SSD's sector by sector, block by block and recover tons of stuff ?? Ideally it SHOULDN'T, because we want our SSD's to be truly 'reset' in a virgin blank/empty state!! I have done it myself, and can attest that reformatting a HFS+ file system does NOT erase the data on the disk --- so why would it suddenly do it for an SSD ??? Further more, erasing our SSD's with 111111's is no solution either, because that actually fills it up to the brim with data (11111111111111's), not mark the sectors/blocks as free. The only thing overwriting 1111111111111's to our SSD accomplishes is making it impossible to recover data from using traditional tools.
Please correct me if i'm wrong, but
Apple, you really need to get SSD TRIM support in here..........
Hi, this website Secure Erase Intel SSD might help someone looking to restore their ssd to original state.
Hopefully if you do it, you will have an easier time than I did getting it to work. As it took a few floppy drives, and a few floppy disks before I was able to strike a combination that worked...and thankfully I was doing it at my buddy's computer shop so I extras of items I no longer keep around.
In the end it did work. And once I found a combination of floppy drive, floppy disk, and computer that recognized a floppy drive (a couple computers didn't recognize the usb floppy drive, and another computer didn't recognize the internal floppy drive) I had no problem resetting all three ssd drives to factory settings.
So once you get a setup that works, which shouldn't be nearly as difficult as I found it to be, you should be able to superdupe, reset, and restore the superdupe in an hour or less depending on how much information you're restoring.
Dave
Hopefully if you do it, you will have an easier time than I did getting it to work. As it took a few floppy drives, and a few floppy disks before I was able to strike a combination that worked...and thankfully I was doing it at my buddy's computer shop so I extras of items I no longer keep around.
In the end it did work. And once I found a combination of floppy drive, floppy disk, and computer that recognized a floppy drive (a couple computers didn't recognize the usb floppy drive, and another computer didn't recognize the internal floppy drive) I had no problem resetting all three ssd drives to factory settings.
So once you get a setup that works, which shouldn't be nearly as difficult as I found it to be, you should be able to superdupe, reset, and restore the superdupe in an hour or less depending on how much information you're restoring.
Dave
Hey Dave,
Just to clarify, you took your Intel SSD out of your Mac and put it in various PC's at your buddy's computer shop, then attempted to boot from the floppy disk and run the HDDERASE.exe program??
I'm asking because I wonder if it would work booted from a USB Floppy disk drive connected to a Mac?? I know Intel Mac's can USB boot (to USB HDD and Flash drives at least), so perhaps that might include booting to a USB Floppy disk drive since its recognized as just another USB Mass Storage Device.... However, the instructions also mention disabling AHCI in BIOS, which we cant do AFAIK.
As an alternate, to avoid physically dismantling our Mac's just to take out the SSD, someone advised upon the Linux hddparm utility to accomplish the "ATA Secure Erase" of an SSD. Apparently you leave your SSD in your Mac and boot a Linux Live CD and run the command. Check here and lemme know what you think:
https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/ATA_Secure_Erase
HDDErase won't work on a non-PC as it needs a BIOS. You could mount your SSD in an external enclosure and use a boot disk with HDDErase on a PC however.
On your mac, a Linux Live disk will work, but the internal drive will be locked and you won't be able to perform the necessary secure erase. You will need to disconnect and reconnect the drive while the machine is running, or remove it and put it in an external enclosure first. There is simply no way around this yet from what I've read (and like you, I've done plenty of reading on this topic).
You still have to hot plug your SSD to get it 'not frozen' otherwise you can't issue the command. but yeah, it works great.
OOOohh.... So to sum up, either scenario requires the disassembly of your Mac laptop to remove the internal SSD:
1) Using the Linux Live CD to boot your Mac, you can do the job by putting the SSD in a external USB Enclosure to get it 'not frozen'
OR
2) Put it inside a PC and run A) HDDERASE.exe from a DOS boot floppy OR B) the OEM's official tools to Secure Erase the drive (Intel SSD Toolbox in this case)
3) Any option 3 ??
OOOohh.... So to sum up, either scenario requires the disassembly of your Mac laptop to remove the internal SSD:
1) Using the Linux Live CD to boot your Mac, you can do the job by putting the SSD in a external USB Enclosure to get it 'not frozen'
OR
2) Put it inside a PC and run A) HDDERASE.exe from a DOS boot floppy OR B) the OEM's official tools to Secure Erase the drive (Intel SSD Toolbox in this case)
3) Any option 3 ??
I believe Intel's Toolbox has to be installed on the drive in use (Windows only) and cannot read the HFS+ filesystem even if the SSD is placed in an external enclosure. It is meant to be used on Windows filesystems without wiping the drive clean from what I understand. So I think you'll still need a Linux Live CD (or HDDErase on a Windows machine) and perform a secure erase via an external enclosure after backing up your SSD first.
I don't believe there's an option 3 which can be done without removing the drive, which is a bit of a PITA on a MacBook (all those damn screws), although not the end of the world.
OOOohh.... So to sum up, either scenario requires the disassembly of your Mac laptop to remove the internal SSD:
1) Using the Linux Live CD to boot your Mac, you can do the job by putting the SSD in a external USB Enclosure to get it 'not frozen'
OR
2) Put it inside a PC and run A) HDDERASE.exe from a DOS boot floppy OR B) the OEM's official tools to Secure Erase the drive (Intel SSD Toolbox in this case)
3) Any option 3 ??
Yeah, that about sums it up. You don't need an external enclosure for #1, just unplugging and replugging the SSD while booted to the CD will work to unfreeze it.
Intel's SSD toolbox doesn't work on HFS+ formatted drives.
@jkozlow3 @MBHockey
Well like many of y'all, i'm on a laptop (MacBook Pro), so i'm guessing I can't just unplug and replug the SSD while booted to a Linux Live CD/USB By your mentioning of this, I assume this is possible only on a MacPro then (the live hotplug while the machine is powered on)?? For us Mac laptop users, its a major PITA to remove the 17 screws on a MBP to access the SSD!!
Yeah, i'm fully aware Intel SSD Toolbox doesn't do one squat with HFS+. The objective here is only to secure erase the drive, and I would imagine Intel SSD Toolbox has a function somewhere to at least do this. I think we've all given up on OS X TRIM support, unless it magically comes from Apple or Intel. I'm aware the main purpose of SSD Toolbox is to 'optimize' NTFS SSD's and to add TRIM support to pre-Win7 OS, both of which only apply to Windows.
And we dont need an option 3. We need Option 0) Native TRIM support from Apple in 10.6.4
Well like many of y'all, i'm on a laptop (MacBook Pro), so i'm guessing I can't just unplug and replug the SSD while booted to a Linux Live CD/USB By your mentioning of this, I assume this is possible only on a MacPro then (the live hotplug while the machine is powered on)?? For us Mac laptop users, its a major PITA to remove the 17 screws on a MBP to access the SSD!!
Yeah, i'm fully aware Intel SSD Toolbox doesn't do one squat with HFS+. The objective here is only to secure erase the drive, and I would imagine Intel SSD Toolbox has a function somewhere to at least do this. I think we've all given up on OS X TRIM support, unless it magically comes from Apple or Intel. I'm aware the main purpose of SSD Toolbox is to 'optimize' NTFS SSD's and to add TRIM support to pre-Win7 OS, both of which only apply to Windows.
And we dont need an option 3. We need Option 0) Native TRIM support from Apple in 10.6.4
I'm on a MacBook Pro as well, and while I have not done this, someone suggested unscrewing everything first and then propping up the laptop on phone books or something so that a hot-plug can be performed with it running.
Note that I would personally never risk doing it this way, as I have access to an external enclosure. That's how I intend to do the secure erase if/when my SSD slows down considerably.