Does the Mac Pro have much of a future?

[Gonk42]

It is an interesting question for people like me who are thinking of switching to a Mac Pro.

But perhaps of more interest is the question of what the future cost of ownership is likely to be. The '08 models offered good value for money.
The '09 models certainly don't. Apple has a monopoly of Macs so commiting
to a Mac Pro has to be done on the basis of the current cost and also the
cost of any future upgrades. Such future costs are determined purely at
the whim of Apple - the Mac Pro is not a mainstream product for them so
what they charge is almost arbitrary. If you're lucky they offer it at a
bargain price, if you're unlucky they up the margins to huge values and there
is nothing the customer can do about it.

On the basis that if the Mac Pro survives it is likely to be more and more aimed purely at a few professionals with deep pockets then it is likely to be an
unaffordable luxury for those who run software that is available under Windows or Linux.

 

[Bubba Satori]

Apple needs to make an i7 tower for a lot less than the $2,400 they charge for the single quad core Mac Pro with 3GB of memory and a cr*p Nvidia video card.

 

[AZREOSpecialist]

Has anyone been to an Apple store recently? Try to find a Mac Pro... you have to go to the back of the store and you'll probably just find a single, lonely tower humming away. That's been my experience with several Apple stores. Granted, Apple stores are geared towards mainstream consumers, but still. The fact that the Mac Pro enjoys one update per year is also a big clue. iMacs, Mac Books, and Mac Book Pros see much more frequent updates. I just don't think the Mac Pro is a priority for Apple. If it were, it would be updated much more often.

There is no reason why we don't have a Mac Pro today that sports Quad or 8-core 3.3 GHz CPUs. These are available from Intel on the open market. It's truly sad that someone has to drop over $6,000 on a Mac Pro 2.93 GHz and not get the latest and greatest from Intel inside the box. I suppose you can say the same about the rest of the Mac lineup, but the Mac Pro seems particularly more exposed to criticism given the price points.

Annual updates were fine when all we had was the G4/G5 and nothing new coming out of Motorola. Intel continues to innovate and come out with faster chips based on the same architecture. Why can't those chips find their way into Macs faster? That I will never understand. The only thing I can think of is that Apple is so hugely focused on the consumer segment -- iPhones, app store, iTunes, etc. -- that they haven't invested sufficiently in their hardware teams.

This is all just speculation of course, but I'm glad that at least with the newest Pros we can swap the chips out and go with faster ones. I would be even happier if someone can figure out a way to overlock the Mac Pros, through EFI/firmware or other routes, to extend the life of the machines we are currently using. My Mac Pro Quad w/ 3.33 GHz Core i7 under moderate use has a CPU temp right around 29-32 C. There's a lot of room there to overclock.

 

[AppleWorking]

Has anyone been to an Apple store recently? Try to find a Mac Pro... you have to go to the back of the store and you'll probably just find a single, lonely tower humming away.

So true... There are three apple stores in my state and all three only have one solitary MP in the very back of the store. Whereas there are approximately 20+ MBP in the center and just as many minis and imacs scattered around the perimeter.

 

[Gonk42]

So true... There are three apple stores in my state and all three only have one solitary MP in the very back of the store. Whereas there are approximately 20+ MBP in the center and just as many minis and imacs scattered around the perimeter.

In the Cambridge (UK) store they have one quad and one octo but it's not suprising that there aren't many in the stores. A Mac Pro is not really a
impulse buy (unless you're very rich) and most purchasers of the Pro probably know all about it from other sources anyway. It is useful to be able to see the size of the case and more importantly have a look at the displays.

At the Cambridge store the Pros are used for demos. I went in there once with the intention of looking at the Pro and a demo was in progress (a guy with a head mike demo-ing software on the Pro) but he had no audience! It was bizarre - presenting to a store full of people all with their backs to him whilst they played with the Mac books and i-pods in the central area. I felt rather sorry for him but I didn't want to wander up and raise his hopes and then wander off again, so I decided to come back another time!

 

[designgeek]

The Mac Pro is for prosumers, professionals, and people like me that are thinking of starting their own space program. It's not really designed for Joe Blow "I'm going to edit my home movie and send it to grandma." Perhaps as a consumer machine it's limited but get an iMac or something. I do really wish they had a tower made of desktop parts available for less than I paid for my car but that's another thread.

 

[300D]

Wait for the quad iMac in the next update.

 

[dfs]

Future of Mac Pro

You have to make a basic distinction between two groups: users who are mostly passive consumers of content and the people who create that content. For the former group a computer as powerful and expensive as the Mac Pro is waaay overkill, but the latter group depends on top-end gear like that and always will. And it will always be clamoring for more speed and more power. Sure, content creators represent a distinct minority of all computer users, you could almost call them a niche market. Apple appreciates this, which is why they call these towers "Pro(fessional)", right? (When they slapped that moniker on their tower, they were in essence acknowledging that the iMac is their top-end consumer model). But I can't imagine that Apple will ever walk away from this market. Its the existence of content that creates the popular demand for mass-market computers, and so you could say the whole personal computer industry feeds off the content creators and has a vested interest in keeping them happy. I'm sure Apple knows this and realizes that it is not in its corporate interest to leave the creators high and dry.

 

[goodcow]

My main gripe is that the "xMac" can basically just be an i7 MacPro, can't it? Apple used to sell low end PowerMac's alongside the iMacs for $1499 or $1799. An i7 MacPro for $1499 would probably sell a ton.

 

[iMacmatician]

So, when is the next MP speed bump happening?

Probably middle of next year with Gulftown.

 

[Bubba Satori]

My main gripe is that the "xMac" can basically just be an i7 MacPro, can't it? Apple used to sell low end PowerMac's alongside the iMacs for $1499 or $1799. An i7 MacPro for $1499 would probably sell a ton.

Yes it would. A lot of my Mac power user customers need a new tower, have a monitor and don't want an iMac mirror computer or the least expensive Mac Pro single quad at $2,400 with 3GB and a cr*p Nvidia 120.

So they end up getting a $700 Phenom II box with 8GB and a 4000 series ATI or a $1,200 i7 box with 9GB and a Nvidia 200 series card.

And those are my Mac desktop customers.

 

[Toronto Mike]

You have to make a basic distinction between two groups: users who are mostly passive consumers of content and the people who create that content. For the former group a computer as powerful and expensive as the Mac Pro is waaay overkill, but the latter group depends on top-end gear like that and always will. And it will always be clamoring for more speed and more power. Sure, content creators represent a distinct minority of all computer users, you could almost call them a niche market. Apple appreciates this, which is why they call these towers "Pro(fessional)", right? (When they slapped that moniker on their tower, they were in essence acknowledging that the iMac is their top-end consumer model). But I can't imagine that Apple will ever walk away from this market. Its the existence of content that creates the popular demand for mass-market computers, and so you could say the whole personal computer industry feeds off the content creators and has a vested interest in keeping them happy. I'm sure Apple knows this and realizes that it is not in its corporate interest to leave the creators high and dry.

I hope Apple never loses sight of this essential idea.

If they alienate and lose this customer by not giving them what they need for a price that is reasonable for the performance - this group will simply go over to the Windows side. When Apple loses a significant percentage of Professional content providers, Adobe and others will drop development of their software for Mac - the rest of the Mac pro users will abandon the platform, and soon the Mac consumer will be faced with little or no future development. A trickle down effect will not occur for the typical Mac consumer because the main thrust of writing the code for the Pro, that has an easy modification and simplification for the stripped down consumer versions, is no longer there.

Corel Draw was once written for Mac - and at some point they must have looked at the numbers and realized that it wasn't worth it. Adobe might come to the same conclusion one day. I hope Apple never takes for granted the loyalty of its Pro user base - they are the essence of any consideration when you have such a highly advanced product system. The consumer is fickle and has joined the party late in the game, they could grow restless and weary, leaving prematurely for some other new excitement.

Mike

 

[gugucom]

Apple is a business and they are dammned good at marketing. So the smart money is on a conventional strategy. Mature products become cash cows and when the cash is sucked out you drop them before they damage the company margin. Apple will not run a Mac Pro product line if it is detrimental to their profit margin. Due to falling customer numbers they had to push prices considerably last time. This is a vicious circle. Once you get into it it spirals into a flat spin and if you don't pull the eject you buy the farm quicker than you can say sayonara. I hope for us and Apple that a miracle happens and new customers flock to their Mac Pro line but I would not hold my breath for it. They are not even willing to put the W5580 and W5590 in to give customers better value. I mean this would be a no brainer for any sensible product manager with a flexible buying schedule. They must have their eyes completely off the ball.

 

[Gonk42]

I agree with Toronto Mike, Apple will be making a mistake if they view the Mac Pro in isolation from a commercial point of view. Though most consumers will never move onto professional apps they will like to know that they have the option and feel that the home apps are benefitting from their commercial counterparts (look at the success of Photoshop elements etc).

If the Mac Pro dies and Apple is left only with iMacs on which most people end up running windows to get the apps they need then there is much less to hold people in the Apple camp.

To try and make large margins on the Mac Pro is a mistake in my view but it seems to be the present Apple policy. The Mac Pro is getting more and more a niche product - it charges workstation prices (in fact is more expensive than many workstations) but doesn't have graphics cards/driver software etc and overall support to the level that rivals provide. OS X is very nice but this only is a factor whilst there is native software for it that people want.

 

[Toronto Mike]

I'd even go a step further and say that it is of paramount importance that Apple continue to support the Mac Pro, and all the graphic cards, drivers - ect. - even if it has to be sold for low margins. It might have to be sold for small margins to entice the Pro users to stay. The Pro is at the top of the user chain and all development trickles down from there.

If the Pros start to feel abandoned and ripped off by excessive price gouging - they will leave. After all - Mac is only an operating system to a Pro user of most applications - many of which are written for Windows as well. It comes down to what the Pro users feel is necessary to earn their living with. I know that I will never buy an Apple display if they continue to produce glossy displays. That is because I have a choice from other manufacturers for matte displays. It will be the same with the Mac Pro if Apple is not careful.

Mike

 

[nanofrog]

The Pro is at the top of the user chain and all development trickles down from there.

This is usually the case, but since Apple has shifted thier focus to consumer products, they're losing sight/interest. Less to support I guess (no hardware RAID, multiple graphics models,...).

If the Pros start to feel abandoned and ripped off by excessive price gouging - they will leave. After all - Mac is only an operating system to a Pro user of most applications - many of which are written for Windows as well. It comes down to what the Pro users feel is necessary to earn their living with. I know that I will never buy an Apple display if they continue to produce glossy displays. That is because I have a choice from other manufacturers for matte displays. It will be the same with the Mac Pro if Apple is not careful.

Mike

What's also to be noted, is the cost of switching back in terms of software is expensive. Well beyond the cost of the machine in fact. That give Apple an advantage if they press it. Perhaps they don't think there's enough MP users out there to bother with any longer, and are willing to just let them twist in the wind, ultimately forcing the scenario you've described.

 

[Toronto Mike]

What's also to be noted, is the cost of switching back in terms of software is expensive. Well beyond the cost of the machine in fact. That give Apple an advantage if they press it. Perhaps they don't think there's enough MP users out there to bother with any longer, and are willing to just let them twist in the wind, ultimately forcing the scenario you've described.

You are so right. And pressed that advantage they have.

Look at when they dropped matte screens for the MacBook Pro last year and left no option to the professional users that needed such a feature. Now they are dropping that Express slot/34 that some pro users need to hook up exterior eSata raids for maximum performance in favor of a SD card slot reader. Look at the deliberate crippling of the new Quad Mac Pros that only have 4 Ram slots instead of 8. What is a Pro user supposed to think after being asked to spend that much already and then only be able to have 4 slots. Like there's no more room in a Mac Pro case for the extra slots? So who is being held hostage by the software that they've bought? For those that feel this way - for how long will it last?

I know last year I couldn't afford a new Mac Pro, and the iMac has a glossy display with too few upgrade options. So I bought a used G5. I am very happy with what I am currently using, but Apple lost out on a new sale. The next time it might be different - when I do have the money for a complete upgrade I might not like what they have to offer at the pro level for the price they are asking. I might consider a Windows machine because I am not going to spend thousands more for what I need.

BTW I am not a pro user, but I do use the pro applications so budget is always a major consideration for someone who doesn't generate an income directly from my machine.

Mike

 

[nanofrog]

You are so right. And pressed that advantage they have.

Look at when they dropped matte screens for the MacBook Pro last year and left no option to the professional users that needed such a feature. Now they are dropping that Express slot/34 that some pro users need to hook up exterior eSata raids for maximum performance in favor of a SD card slot reader. Look at the deliberate crippling of the new Quad Mac Pros that only have 4 Ram slots instead of 8. What is a Pro user supposed to think after being asked to spend that much already and then only be able to have 4 slots. Like there's no more room in a Mac Pro case for the extra slots? So who is being held hostage by the software that they've bought? For those that feel this way - for how long will it last?

I know last year I couldn't afford a new Mac Pro, and the iMac has a glossy display with too few upgrade options. So I bought a used G5. I am very happy with what I am currently using, but Apple lost out on a new sale. The next time it might be different - when I do have the money for a complete upgrade I might not like what they have to offer at the pro level for the price they are asking. I might consider a Windows machine because I am not going to spend thousands more for what I need.

BTW I am not a pro user, but I do use the pro applications so budget is always a major consideration for someone who doesn't generate an income directly from my machine.

Mike

For me, they've definitely gone consumer, and have lost interest in the Mac Pro's. People want new ACD's, but all we've got is a unit aimed at the laptop users. The MiniDisplayPort on the MP's were added just for that monitor. Anything else, they expect users to go 3rd party. It can be an issue for some needing multiple monitors though.

I've skipped Mac now, and DIY'ed a machine to my specs (internal hardware RAID in particular). So pros are either going to have to bite the bullet and switch in the not too distant future, or go hackintosh if the neglect continues.

As per your G5, it appears you're going to have software support issues in the near future (no longer supporting PPC based machines). Apple's already doing this with Snow Leopard, and it would seem reasonable that professional apps will soon follow.

 

[Toronto Mike]

As per your G5, it appears you're going to have software support issues in the near future (no longer supporting PPC based machines). Apple's already doing this with Snow Leopard, and it would seem reasonable that professional apps will soon follow.

I've thought long about this issue - being a relative newbe when it comes to computers (3years of experience) - and have tried to determine how I would use a computer in the foreseeable future. From what I can determine from the questions I've asked, that as long as my output can be read by professional printers in the future i.e. reading my CS4 Photoshop files, and web browsers able to display my Dreamweaver code - all should be well. My concern is how others will be able to use my output for my own promotional materials. As far as I can see, since I am not a graphic designer existing within a professional context of clients sending me files written by the then most current software - I should be able to use the software I have for many years. I think the printers would happily take my money if all I have is CS4 files at the time when CS7 might be the current version.

For me it about keeping costs reasonable to what I need to accomplish. In fact, I am still using the previous operating system - Tiger - that I find completely stable with the G5.

From what I have seen with what CS4 Photoshop is able to do, I'd be hard pressed to be able to exhaust its full potential. It can already do so much already, that I could be productive with it for the next 7 years. So the next operating system is really not an issue if in your mind you can live with where you are - and here we are at the end of the line for PPC software development at all levels. All could change if my needs change from a predominantly 2D media stance to 3D animation or video. We'll see.

I like to take part in these types of philosophical discussions about the Mac Pro because I know that one day I will want to have one - and I'd like Apple to still be with us providing the very best it is capable of - that we all deserve for the hard earned money that we wish to bestow on them. Let's hope that by the end of this recession that those values of our previous generations will prevail and that mercenary pencil pushers will wither away in favor of those who believe in value for value and that excellence has a place in a corporate culture that nurtures lifelong and positive values. That really is the only decent way for anyone to be.

Mike

 

[nanofrog]

I've thought long about this issue - being a relative newbe when it comes to computers (3years of experience) - and have tried to determine how I would use a computer in the foreseeable future. From what I can determine from the questions I've asked, that as long as my output can be read by professional printers in the future i.e. reading my CS4 Photoshop files, and web browsers able to display my Dreamweaver code - all should be well. My concern is how others will be able to use my output for my own promotional materials. As far as I can see, since I am not a graphic designer existing within a professional context of clients sending me files written by the then most current software - I should be able to use the software I have for many years. I think the printers would happily take my money if all I have is CS4 files at the time when CS7 might be the current version.

For me it about keeping costs reasonable to what I need to accomplish. In fact, I am still using the previous operating system - Tiger - that I find completely stable with the G5.

From what I have seen with what CS4 Photoshop is able to do, I'd be hard pressed to be able to exhaust its full potential. It can already do so much already, that I could be productive with it for the next 7 years. So the next operating system is really not an issue if in your mind you can live with where you are - and here we are at the end of the line for PPC software development at all levels. All could change if my needs change from a predominantly 2D media stance to 3D animation or video. We'll see.

Assuming you won't need any of the features available in the newer versions.

I like to take part in these types of philosophical discussions about the Mac Pro because I know that one day I will want to have one - and I'd like Apple to still be with us providing the very best it is capable of - that we all deserve for the hard earned money that we wish to bestow on them. Let's hope that by the end of this recession that those values of our previous generations will prevail and that mercenary pencil pushers will wither away in favor of those who believe in value for value and that excellence has a place in a corporate culture that nurtures lifelong and positive values. That really is the only decent way for anyone to be.

Mike

A rather idealistic POV for sure. Unfortunately, I don't think the accountants and stockholders are going to change their minds that easily. Greed has thus proven hard to stamp out.

 

[Toronto Mike]

Most definitely an idealistic view.

I ask myself what else could you possibly believe in but that?

I think that the dedicated creative of all disciplines of life who wish the very best for their tools - that makes all realization possible - would have a desire to see their tools evolve upwards as they aspire. I think in that spirit Apple would be a part of that positive energy that its products help engender. If not, then their business model is as shorted sighted as the rest and will face the same deterioration as such. You cannot effectively run counter to the needs of any positive life force or values for long and still survive - as a company or as a society.

Mike