Drives in optical bay questions

[nanofrog]

Alright, I will contact them to make sure. Also to see if they include SATA cables. I also noticed that for only $10 more, they will include a PCIe controller. They have a bootable one available too but that brings the price up a bit.

The card is up to you, as I'm not sure you're settled on the configuration yet, which can include the OS the attached disks will be running, and if it needs to be booted.

So a software RAID wouldn't make a big difference in performance at all? I am an Arts and Technology major and will be doing a lot of 3D rendering and don't want a software RAID to slow things down, especially when there is a deadline for a project.

No, the software implementation would be fine, as you won't even notice a percent or two on a single core.

So just to make sure, if I were to just put the SSD in the optical bay, no other drives, I wouldn't need any other cables or anything, and it would be bootable?

No cables needed, it will boot, and there's no slow down compared to any of the HDD bays (it's all the same controller).

 

[strausd]

Alright I think I have decided that I will do a software RAID since it only uses one core when there are up to 16 threads in the MP. And I contacted TransIntl yesterday and they said that the Pro Caddy 2 comes with all power and data cables needed for two drives.

I am also curious as to whether or not a software RAID is bootable with OS X on its. Also, would it be bootable if it was used for bootcamp running windows 7?

 

[nanofrog]

I am also curious as to whether or not a software RAID is bootable with OS X on its.

Yes, a software RAID on the logic board's SATA controller is bootable. If it's on another controller (PCIe card), that will depend on the firmware (BIOS will boot Windows or Linux, EFI will boot OS X).

Also, would it be bootable if it was used for bootcamp running windows 7?

No. Boot Camp won't work on a RAID drive, nor on a separate disk, unless it's attached to a separate controller (Disk Utility changes the firmware settings, and Windows will no longer boot off of the ICH).

 

[strausd]

Well I think I am definitely leaning towards a software RAID with a single SSD in the optical bay. I noticed on another thread that you said it is a good idea to check the drive before putting it on RAID. How would I go about checking a drive for bad sectors and things like that?

 

[nanofrog]

Well I think I am definitely leaning towards a software RAID with a single SSD in the optical bay. I noticed on another thread that you said it is a good idea to check the drive before putting it on RAID. How would I go about checking a drive for bad sectors and things like that?

I use the drive utility provided by the drive maker (usually under Windows). There are other tools, but you'd have to pay for a license (the downloads off of the drive maker's site are free).

Please note the low level formats use by drive makers are proprietary (i.e. Seagate's tools shouldn't be used on anything but Seagate, and so on).

 

[strausd]

I use the drive utility provided by the drive maker (usually under Windows). There are other tools, but you'd have to pay for a license (the downloads off of the drive maker's site are free).

Please note the low level formats use by drive makers are proprietary (i.e. Seagate's tools shouldn't be used on anything but Seagate, and so on).

What is a good standard one that will work with all drives under OS X?

 

[nanofrog]

What is a good standard one that will work with all drives under OS X?

I'm not aware of a single package that can work with any drive make.

You could take a look at:
Disk Tools Pro
Disk Doctors

But I don't think they cover all brands (Disk Doctor's indicates LaCie, iOmega, Seagate, Maxtor and G-drive for example). You'd need to dig into this further, to see if it's suitable with your drives.

 

[Spacedust]

Is there any possibility to put 4 SSD's in a second optical bay in Mac Pro ?

 

[nanofrog]

Is there any possibility to put 4 SSD's in a second optical bay in Mac Pro ?

Yes.

4x 2.5" backplane (cheapest I've seen it) or a DIY solution.

Depending on what you're doing with the 2008 system, it can be easier (i.e. using a fanout cable from the logic board to the backplane), but I presume those ports are occupied. So you'd need a 4 port controller of some sort (a fast hardware RAID card if you're planning on 4x SSD's to be run simultaneously), and power cables (also easier in the '08 model vs. '09).

 

[Spacedust]

Yes.

4x 2.5" backplane (cheapest I've seen it) or a DIY solution.

Depending on what you're doing with the 2008 system, it can be easier (i.e. using a fanout cable from the logic board to the backplane), but I presume those ports are occupied. So you'd need a 4 port controller of some sort (a fast hardware RAID card if you're planning on 4x SSD's to be run simultaneously), and power cables (also easier in the '08 model vs. '09).

WOW ! That's the thing I was looking for. Now I can remove my second Superdrive and put 4xSSD's for BootCamp RAID + some sort of Hardware RAID card and 4xSSD's in Mac Pro bays for Mac OS X software or hardware RAID

Is there any possibility to put 2 drive's (2,5" SSD's) in one Mac Pro bay ?). This would allow me to put 8 SSD's in Mac Pro bays. I would like to put SATA cables manually.

 

[strausd]

WOW ! That's the thing I was looking for. Now I can remove my second Superdrive and put 4xSSD's for BootCamp RAID + some sort of Hardware RAID card and 4xSSD's in Mac Pro bays for Mac OS X software or hardware RAID

Is there any possibility to put 2 drive's (2,5" SSD's) in one Mac Pro bay ?). This would allow me to put 8 SSD's in Mac Pro bays. I would like to put SATA cables manually.

http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2746&RequestTimeOut=500

 

[Spacedust]

http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2746&RequestTimeOut=500

It has integrated RAID ? What if I have 4 of these ?

 

[strausd]

It has integrated RAID ? What if I have 4 of these ?

Uhm I'm not entirely sure, I don't know too much about this. But FYI, it won't work in a 2009 MP.

 

[nanofrog]

WOW ! That's the thing I was looking for. Now I can remove my second Superdrive and put 4xSSD's for BootCamp RAID + some sort of Hardware RAID card and 4xSSD's in Mac Pro bays for Mac OS X software or hardware RAID

You won't be able to run both an OS X and Windows array on the logic board's SATA controller. You'd need one of them on a separate controller, as Disk Utility modifies the firmware settings, so Windows or Linux will no longer boot from the ICH.

Also, if you wish to have 2x independent SSD arrays of 4x disks each, you'd want a separate controller for each. The slot configuration could pose a problem here (see below), as you must have a separate RAID card to boot OS X and BIOS (one card CANNOT boot in both EFI and BIOS environments, as the ROM can only store one or the other).

Is there any possibility to put 2 drive's (2,5" SSD's) in one Mac Pro bay ?). This would allow me to put 8 SSD's in Mac Pro bays. I would like to put SATA cables manually.

As mentioned, the Pro Drive won't work with the 2009 systems, but that's not an issue for you. However, you'll suffer performance issues.
The logic board's SATA controller (ICH in the chipset), is only good for ~660MB/s. As SSD's are available that can push the limit of 3.0Gb/s SATA ports, you can't install but 3x before you're going to be throttled (set runs slower than is technically possible).

A separate PCIe card is the only solution to that, and may have limits as well (depending on the number of drives used, their actual throughputs, the card model, and the slot used = specifics of the setup). Remember, Slots 1 and 2 are 16x lane Gen 2.0 (500MB/s per lane), and Slots 3 and 4 are 4x electrical Gen 1.0 (250MB/s per lane).

http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2746&RequestTimeOut=500

Those devices use Port Multiplier chips, and are capable of either RAID 0 or 1. That means you're switching the port between the disks, and the overhead involved slows down the throughput to less than the port is capable of on a single disk. ~200MB/s under a stripe configuration per unit (sold by others as well).

But Spacedust's system is a 2008, so they would be able to be used from a technical standpoint (fits the trays properly = ports will connect to the cable end back in the bay, which is attached via 2 metal tabs that hang down).

 

[strausd]

Would it be a bad idea to have my home directory on a 2TB software RAID 0? Just curious because I would be accessing it a lot and would want to still have fast read and writes.

 

[nanofrog]

Would it be a bad idea to have my home directory on a 2TB software RAID 0? Just curious because I would be accessing it a lot and would want to still have fast read and writes.

Wouldn't be a problem, so long as you've a back system in place.

 

[Spacedust]

You won't be able to run both an OS X and Windows array on the logic board's SATA controller. You'd need one of them on a separate controller, as Disk Utility modifies the firmware settings, so Windows or Linux will no longer boot from the ICH.

Also, if you wish to have 2x independent SSD arrays of 4x disks each, you'd want a separate controller for each. The slot configuration could pose a problem here (see below), as you must have a separate RAID card to boot OS X and BIOS (one card CANNOT boot in both EFI and BIOS environments, as the ROM can only store one or the other).


As mentioned, the Pro Drive won't work with the 2009 systems, but that's not an issue for you. However, you'll suffer performance issues.
The logic board's SATA controller (ICH in the chipset), is only good for ~660MB/s. As SSD's are available that can push the limit of 3.0Gb/s SATA ports, you can't install but 3x before you're going to be throttled (set runs slower than is technically possible).

A separate PCIe card is the only solution to that, and may have limits as well (depending on the number of drives used, their actual throughputs, the card model, and the slot used = specifics of the setup). Remember, Slots 1 and 2 are 16x lane Gen 2.0 (500MB/s per lane), and Slots 3 and 4 are 4x electrical Gen 1.0 (250MB/s per lane).


Those devices use Port Multiplier chips, and are capable of either RAID 0 or 1. That means you're switching the port between the disks, and the overhead involved slows down the throughput to less than the port is capable of on a single disk. ~200MB/s under a stripe configuration per unit (sold by others as well).

But Spacedust's system is a 2008, so they would be able to be used from a technical standpoint (fits the trays properly = ports will connect to the cable end back in the bay, which is attached via 2 metal tabs that hang down).

That's for reply nanofrog.

Some 3,5" to 2,5" backplates have to seperate SATA connectors: http://www.ocmodshop.com/ocmodshop.aspx?a=1762&p=4558, but 4 drives is enough for me.

I think the best setup is:

4xSSD RAID 0 in second optical bay + RAID controller in Slot 3 for Windows 7 connected via 4xSATA cables or 1xSAS to 4xSATA cable

4xSSD RAID 0 in Mac Pro bays + some sort of 3,5 to 2,5" converter (I use Kingston) + RAID controller in Slot 2 for Mac OS X + SAS extension cable or SAS to 4xSATA cable

Take a look a this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96dWOEa4Djs - this guy took 24 SSD's and connected them:

10 drives to Areca controller
8 drives to Adapter controller
6 drives to integrated RAID controller

Preety nice setup

 

[nanofrog]

Some 3,5" to 2,5" backplates have to separate SATA connectors: http://www.ocmodshop.com/ocmodshop.aspx?a=1762&p=4558, but 4 drives is enough for me.

The unit I linked is common, and sold under multiple brands (iSTAR is one of them). So I presume you'd be able to find it closer to home (newegg only ships to the US and Canada).

The port configuration on that unit is preferable to Backplane connectors IMO, in terms of configuration. Just use the Molex connector at the optical bay for power, and a fan-out cable to get data to the card. Cable's cheaper too (backplane fanouts are also harder to deal with, as you've 4x power connectors to feed).

At any rate, there is a solution to either port type.

4xSSD RAID 0 in second optical bay + RAID controller in Slot 3 for Windows 7 connected via 4xSATA cables or 1xSAS to 4xSATA cable

This will work. Just keep in mind, that given Slot 3 is 4x lane Gen 1.0, so you could throttle on faster SSD's (those capable of pushing more than 250MB/s each for sustained transfers).

4xSSD RAID 0 in Mac Pro bays + some sort of 3,5 to 2,5" converter (I use Kingston) + RAID controller in Slot 2 for Mac OS X + SAS extension cable or SAS to 4xSATA cable[/QUOTE]
No throttling here, as Slot 2 is 16x lanes, and Gen 2.0. A sufficient RAID card is 8x lanes and a fast processor (800MHz SAS Intel IOP would certainly suffice). But SATA models using say 333MHz, wouldn't (suitable for 2, maybe 3x disks, but not 4).

BTW, all 24 of those SSD's were initially attached to the Areca 1680ix-24, not multiple controllers. I'd like to see what happens with the newer firmware on that card (only have the 1680ix-12 on hand, as well as a 1231ML).

 

[deconstruct60]

So you'd need a 4 port controller of some sort (a fast hardware RAID card if you're planning on 4x SSD's to be run simultaneously), and power cables (also easier in the '08 model vs. '09).

Where is the power going to come to run a bridge , fan, and 4 SSD drives? From the power link meant for running a single optical drive. Or moving power across thermal zones inside the Mac Pro ?

Blowing hot air directly at the power supply isn't usually a good idea from a long term perspective.

 

[nanofrog]

Where is the power going to come to run a bridge , fan, and 4 SSD drives? From the power link meant for running a single optical drive. Or moving power across thermal zones inside the Mac Pro ?

Blowing hot air directly at the power supply isn't usually a good idea from a long term perspective.

Power source = Molex connector available for each optical disk (empty in this case).

SSD's don't pull the power that mechanical drives do, thus don't result in the heat output either. There shouldn't be any significant heat blown across the PSU at all (if any).

BTW, the unit I linked is "dumb" (traces from drive connectors on the backplane in the unit to SATA/SAS ports on the back). As simple as it gets.

 

[Spacedust]

This will work. Just keep in mind, that given Slot 3 is 4x lane Gen 1.0, so you could throttle on faster SSD's (those capable of pushing more than 250MB/s each for sustained transfers).

I think it's not a problem, because 250 MB/s is for PCI-EX 1.1 1x - most SSD's is below this.

Most controllers are PCI-EX 4x oraz 8x which means 1000 MB/s or 2000 MB/s while working on PCI-EX 1.1 and 2000 MB/s or 4000 MB/s while working on 8x.

I want to use some cheap 32 GB with decent speeds like A-Data AS592S-32GM-C (read/write - 230/150 MB/s).

My current Kingston 40 GB is too slow, I had to manually enable TRIM, flashing the drive with Intel firmware. Read speed is 170 MB/s (unstable), write speed only 40 MB/s :/

 

[nanofrog]

I think it's not a problem, because 250 MB/s is for PCI-EX 1.1 1x - most SSD's is below this.

Most controllers are PCI-EX 4x oraz 8x which means 1000 MB/s or 2000 MB/s while working on PCI-EX 1.1 and 2000 MB/s or 4000 MB/s while working on 8x.

I want to use some cheap 32 GB with decent speeds like A-Data AS592S-32GM-C (read/write - 230/150 MB/s).

My current Kingston 40 GB is too slow, I had to manually enable TRIM, flashing the drive with Intel firmware. Read speed is 170 MB/s (unstable), write speed only 40 MB/s :/

I just wanted you to be aware that it could happen, depending on the drives. It will also become more apparent when you're ready to swap drives again IMO, as 6.0Gb/s models will be more common (single disks exceeding 270MB/s).

There are 6.0Gb/s RAID cards avialable now (ATTO is the only vendor with such cards ATM). Given the limitations of Slot 3 and 4, just stick with a 3.0Gb/s compliant card, as there's more choices (i.e. cheaper alternatives).

You could use say one of the Highpoint RR43xx models for the Windows set, and either an ATTO (3.0Gb/s or 6.0Gb/s models) or Areca (just 3.0Gb/s currently available). But ATTO and Areca will boot in EFI once they've been flashed. Both ATTO and Areca design and manufacture their own products, so their support depts. know what they're doing (Highpoint, not so much, as all of their products are ODM supplied). But the Highpoint will be fine with BIOS and running under Windows (Areca actually supplies that particular series to Highpoint).

 

[macpro2000]

I get all this stuff from OWC...i've spent thousands...great company to work with.