dSLR over P/S HELP

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by dingdongbubble, Jun 30, 2007.

  1. dingdongbubble macrumors 6502a

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    Jun 1, 2007
    #1
    Hi

    I want to buy a dSLR, specifically a Canon Digital Rebel XT/350d. They are giving a bundle offer over which looks very interesting. For about $710, I get the camera, the kit lens and a Sigma 70-300mm lens also. So I want to buy this camera.

    Problem is: my dad. He doesnt want to listen to me at home about why a dSLR is better and why I need one. When he goes to the store, he starts asking me questions in which I need to answer with jargon. He doesnt believe me when I speak jargon. Also the SOB of a salesman starts butting in like a pig. They dont know ****.

    Yesterday, the idiot was like if you are a pro then you need this camera(350d) if you are not then you need this camera(some P/S camera). I felt like asking him do I NEED it you dumbass? Who are you to tell me what I need. Its not necessary that a pro uses a dSLR.

    Now first of all do you think that the bundle offer is a good considering that this will be my first dSLR, and second digital camera, the first one being a very crappy Kodak. I know all the controls and stuff so thats not aproblem.

    Now for the main question, can you tell me some talking points to convince my dad in the store without jargon, logical and very 'convincing'. As I told you he starts asking salespeople. He thinks that I am blabbering when I speak (cuz I end up using jargon).:eek:

    Tell me somethign to shut the crap of the dumb salesman without my dad thinking that I am being rude with them lol.:D

    Also tell me something to tell the salesman like: Bring me just ONE P/S camera which performs better than this(350d).

    I really need help cuz my dad thinks that the 350d is only for pros and I dont NEED it, and I can get the job done with a normal P/S.:(
     
  2. M@lew macrumors 68000

    M@lew

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    #2
    $750 in what currency? Then we can say how good/bad the deal is.

    If you're dad is willing to buy you the camera, as in he can afford it etc. then you can say that you plan to invest in lenses as you grow with your camera. You can't to that with a P&S. That's just a suggestion though. :)
     
  3. killerrobot macrumors 68020

    killerrobot

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    #3
    It may not be about why a dSLR is better, it might be about the price and your dad doesn't want to pay 700 some bucks for a digital camera that will be made even better in a year.

    Do you have to have a digital? You can get great SLR for that price with tons of lenses. Not to mention that there are cheaper dSLR cameras out there.

    If it means that much for you to have it, earn the money for it and buy it yourself.
     
  4. epicwelshman macrumors 6502a

    epicwelshman

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    #4
    Alright. I can see your dad's point of view - if someone doesn't know much about photography and what terms like aperture etc. mean, then you going on about technical details will sound like blabber.

    Try writing down a list of pros and cons, and compare the 350D to a P&S and carefully and politely explain why it's better, and why it will do more for you. Do this at home, away from the intruding salesmen. Act rationally, politely, and never forget that your dad is the one footing the bill, for which you should be grateful.

    And I don't agree with getting a film SLR. Film's dead, for the most part, and the costs of buying and developing film is so prohibitive it's just not worth it anymore.
     
  5. killerrobot macrumors 68020

    killerrobot

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    #5
    Film is not dead. It's the only proven archival storage out there. How long will your CD/DVD last? No one knows. They haven't been around for 100 some odd years. Also I'm pretty sure there are no digital medium or digital large format cameras out there.
    You can buy film in bulk, and then develop film yourself unless its color (that's only a couple of bucks to get developed), and then scan it into a computer at any resolution you want if you want to digitally manipulate it.
    The whole idea about the SLR instead of the dSLR is that it's cheaper and can do everything just the same. The camera doesn't make the picture, the photographer does. Also, if the OP is serious about following photography in the future, at university they'll have to have an SLR for just about all of undergrad.

    EDIT:Apoligies @epicwelshman-- may have come off a little "bitey". Just an aficionado.
     
  6. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #6
    Hasselblad H3D cameras
    http://www.hasselblad.com/products/h-system/h3d.aspx
    sensor size: 36.7mm x 49mm

    Fujifilm digital back
    http://www.dpreview.com/news/0312/03121901fujifilmback.asp
    sensor size: 37mm x 52mm

    Mamiya digital back
    http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2127
    sensor size: 36mm x 48mm

    But as for the original question, try convincing us that you need a digital camera for practice.
     
  7. dingdongbubble thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    Jun 1, 2007
    #7
    Ummm

    Its almost AED 2600 over here, thats about USD 710.

    My dad will buy me anything if I NEED it. About lenses, he will not buy that. He will say that you are not a pro to need several lenses. And if you need the zoom, the salesman will suggets a S3 IS.:mad: Lastly he will not buy me anymore lenses for quite some time because I have told him that the bundled lens has a long zoom and I dont really need anything else.

    Killerrobot:
    As far as I know my dad, you are absolutely right. He thinks that electronics get outdated very quickly and in no time I will be asking for a new camera. I have however told him that this is a dslr they dont get outdated so quickly and this camera has been around for more than 2 years and still beats lots of other cameras out there.

    I will not buy film. No WAY. My cousin had a film camera and it had to be repaired. So when it came back, I played around with it and NO WAY am I going for film. Maybe when I am a pro but NO WAY am I goign for it now.

    The country I live in [UAE] by law does not allow child labour and people form our age cant get a job.:mad:

    They have however made a new law which I am not sure about but it lalows 15+ to geta job in the humanities industry like hotels. I can get a job but I dont know how to get one as I have never had one and this trend of children workers hasnt yet become popular over here so I dont think I can get a job right now.:(

    About telling him at home, he doesnt like to speak about electronic so that would be hard,it would include jargon. One plus point that I have is: manual control.

    At the store the pig of a salesman said that even P/S have manual control. Idiot asked me what I wanted? I asked hima bout aperture, luckily the P/S did not have it. He said only the dSLR had it.:D Good hit.

    Just like this, can you suggest some things that P/S cameras dont have. [Manual focus]?

    Of course these advantages have to be comprehendable by my dad and something that makes a difference. e.g if I were fighting the other way round FOR P/S cams, I would say that dSLRs normally dont have Image Stabilization.

    PLZ PLZ PLZ help.:eek:
     
  8. killerrobot macrumors 68020

    killerrobot

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    #8
    @miloblithe
    Thanks for the links. When I've got 22 thousand to spend on the Fuji, I'll buy one.:)

    @ OP
    Job argument well taken. Film camera stance is understood.
    Is your dad just hung up on the megapixels then, because p/s have about the same amount now?
    Non-technically, your argument comes down to the fact that the dSLR will allow you to control the camera more: to experiment more with the light and exposure, and make the picture come out as you want it, not as the p/s wants it.
    Other than that, just be patient with your dad and try to talk rationally about it with him (not using the word WANT) at home as was suggested before. Maybe he'll finally see the difference.
    Good luck.
     
  9. epicwelshman macrumors 6502a

    epicwelshman

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    #9
    DSLR's have:

    Superior image quality, which can be made even better with better lenses (eventually, I know)

    The ability to shoot in RAW, which gives much more flexibility to processing the images, and again, increases image quality

    Manual focus that's mechanically linked and easy to use, versus the manual focus found on some P&S' that are button based and work like crap

    The ability to use an external flash (The S5 IS has a hot shoe, but most P&S' don't)

    Great DOF, which can enhance images (in an artistic sense)

    Greater aperture control. Even my kit 18-55 can go from f 3.5 - f 22 @ 18mm

    Most manual controls are on the body and are easy to change, whereas on P&S' they're buried in menus. This makes the camera feel a lot more natural and more like an extension of the photographer.

    Upgradable lenses, obviously. Even on a 350D some of the L series glass can produce some amazing shots.

    Faster start up times, and less time between each picture; i.e., you can take a rapid succession of images

    Better autofocus for the most part

    -----------------------

    I know some of those arguments are weak, but anything to help.

    Killerrobot: Apologies for my anti-film stance. I know that medium format and larger is still used quite a bit. I just feel that especially in terms of 35mm film digital has so many advantages that it's not worth it for most people anymore. However, you do have a valid point regarding archiving images. We have no idea how hard drives / CD / DVD will hold up in a few years.
     
  10. dingdongbubble thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #10
    Do we NEED it?

    Well the question that stumps me ALL the time from my dad is a simple one. Do we NEED it?

    Whatever I suggest gets a reply with Do we need it?

    :(
     
  11. Plymouthbreezer macrumors 601

    Plymouthbreezer

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    Massachusetts
    #11
    No, but you don't "need" any digital camera for that matter.

    Tell him in wanting to expand your creative artistic side, a DSLR is really the only option. For the most part, there's no comparison in image quality between a P&S and a good DSLR.
     
  12. dingdongbubble thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #12
    Needs

    Hmm u r right at tht rate we dont need a digital camera at all.

    I think he meant to say that when you can get the job done with a P/S then why 'waste' money on a dSLR which are for pros.

    The reason why I want a dSLR is because I want a no nonsense camera that is impressive and keeps up with me. Uptill now I have not come across in person a single P/S which is impressive or satisfactory. In low light they let the Shutter speed go loose, crank up the ISO too much which looks very crappy.

    Also I might take up photography as a hobby.:rolleyes:

    One argument that my dad might buy is that P/S are too small and hard to handle (unergonomic). Also that dSLRs are a bit heavier, reducing shake.

    Finally a lil question on dSLRs. Is the 'auto' mode on it as reliable as on P/S? When my parents use it, can they just use it like a P/S with little or no control? I will do the image processing(RAW) on my own but what about manual control like Shutter Speed and Aperture? Will the dSLR be able to give good results using the scene modes?
     
  13. compuwar macrumors 601

    compuwar

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    #13
    Show him the cost of a "pro" DSLR, then explain the Rebel isn't one.
     
  14. epicwelshman macrumors 6502a

    epicwelshman

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    #14
    You seem pretty uncertain as to your reasons for getting a dSLR. You say that you might take up photography as a hobby, and you also want something "impressive" as you say. If you're not very good, a dSLR won't make you take better images. $700 is a lot to just say you have a nice camera.
     
  15. dingdongbubble thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #15
    .....

    WEll I need a good camera that will satisfy me (low noise, snappy etc) and then I will start taking pictures and improving myself. If I turn out to be a good photographer then I will continue it as a hobby or then just keep the camera for family shots only. That is what I meant.

    I showed my dad a Sony A100 which was almost double the price of the 350d and he said you are not getting this at all. I said I relaly didnt want one of those I just wanted to show u what dSLRs can be. Then I showed him the more affordable ones and he was ready to buy one for me only that he didnt understand why I need one over a P/S. Thats all.

    If I were totally into photography like going for competitions and meetings and taking pics ALL the time to the extent that my crappy P/S gets 'tired' then he would happily get me a dSLR.

    Maybe he is right, I should go for a P/S. How about a S3IS? I just feel skeptical that it might turn me down and end up unsatisfactory. Its just so pleasing when you can fire off shots with a dSLR in a trice compared to a P/S taking ages to load up.
     
  16. epicwelshman macrumors 6502a

    epicwelshman

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    #16
    I didn't mean to seem like I'm attacking you, because I wasn't. I just think that you should be sure that you feel you do need a dSLR before your dad drops $700+ on one.

    When I got into photography I bought myself a Sony DSC-H1, the competitor to the S3IS. It was good, but I found limiting after a while and i wished I'd just bought a dSLR in the first place. It is a lot more satisfactory to take phtotos in fast succession and hear a physical shutter than an electronic "click" or beep.
     
  17. dingdongbubble thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #17
    Exactly

    I have used a few P/S cams, my friends and my own. They just feel very crappy. Their photo quality is OK but in low light it just isnt good enough. I tried a dSLR and its just amazing how you can take so many shots so quickly. In P/S you have to wait for the cam and there is no manual control. I guess I should try out a S3IS first and then switch to a dSLR. That would be about AED1500 at least. The dSLRs are very ergonomic and feel rweally good as though you are in control. With P/S they just keep shaking and lagging.

    IF I dont go for a 350d, can you suggest a P/S. My cousin suggested a S3 IS. I dont like the design of the G7, the Sony H series is not really great this year. Or should I go for a Sony T100 (aww sooo small tht its crappy).:mad:
     
  18. epicwelshman macrumors 6502a

    epicwelshman

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    #18
    From what you've said, try and get the 350D. If it helps, show your dad some photos from the Daily Dose of Imagery photoblog which were all taken with a 350D. Some amazing shots on there.

    As for a P&S recommendation... I have no idea. I'm too far behind on P&S news.
     
  19. ChrisA macrumors G4

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    #19
    Maybe you CAN get the job done with a P/S. It all depends on what
    the "job" is. What you should do is define exactly what you want to
    do with the camera. What subjects will you photograph and what will
    you do with the images.

    It may well be that a P/S will work fine. It may be the the 350d is
    not the right DSLR. Can you explan why you are not wanting a
    Nikon or Pentax or some other camra. Hopefully you did not choose
    the brad of the body because a cheap lens was thrown into the deal.

    The first step is to define "the job"
     
  20. bocomo macrumors 6502

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    New York
    #20
    lots of good replies

    my two cents...

    in the 35mm film size, film is definitely dead

    the larger sensors in the DSLRs provide much better image quality than the smaller sensors in P&S cameras (often overlooked issue). a 7MP P&S does NOT equal a 7MP DSLR!

    ability to change/upgrade lenses is a big DSLR plus

    i like the idea of showing him a truly expensive pro camera (canon's 5D). this will show your choice to be a reasonable one. the rebel xt is a great first DSLR

    manual controls on the DSLR are like being able to steer your car vs. pushing auto pilot (a strange, but effective analogy). for anyone even remotely serious about photography this is a must! if you dad is a golfer, tell him it would be like playing without his wedges. what does he do? maybe i could come up with a better analogy...

    RAW format is another great point made earlier, i don't know of any P&Ss that offer this.

    P&Ss actually have a shorter product cycle than DSLRs, so the outdated argument your dad makes is actually wrong

    external flash is another great point made earlier

    if you could find material from some colleges/universities in the area that specify DSLRs that would certainly help your argument as well
     
  21. compuwar macrumors 601

    compuwar

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    #21
    Traditonal photographic processes don't always do well on longevity tests, and how and in what chemicals the film and prints are processed has so much to do with it that it's not funny. If you're not processing it yourself, you really don't know how long that film or print is going to last, especially color film and prints. Film SLRs are only cheaper if you don't shoot a lot, even if you shoot and develop yourself, film and processing costs can quickly erode the price difference in as short as six months. Someone else has provided links to medium format backs, large format backs are made by several companies such as Better Light, Leaf and Phase One.

    For the issues involved with permanence of traditional media please see:

    http://www.wilhelm-research.com/book_toc.html

    While DVDs are likely to hold up longer than CDs, most people label the lacquer side of the disc with a Sharpie- which will likely kill it inside a couple of years. However, if you're simply moving files around magnetic media, then so long as you don't expience an EMP event from a nuclear weapon, your files will hold their fidelity indefinitely. Since some traditional materials last as little as 10 years in typical conditions, the chances of "getting it right" go up significantly with digital as long as you keep at least one, preferable two backup copies on different media.

    Developing color isn't that difficult if you're shooting E6, but it's a time drain and that could increase the costs relative to digital or outsourcing.
     
  22. jlcharles macrumors 6502

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    #22
  23. ChrisA macrumors G4

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    #23
    I just re-read this. The kid who wants his dad to buy him a DSLR used several paragraphs and hundreds of words but failed to say WHY he needs a DSLR and not a P&S.

    Here is has a audiance willing to listen and the opertunity to state the case clearly. If he can't make a clear case here on this forum where else can he?

    My advice: Write out a well reasoned and clear essay about why the DSLR would be a better choice. Don't use any techo-speak and make sure every claim is substantiated with at least one fact. Then talk about how to select that specific DSLR. My advice is to pick a few typical subjects and walk through the process of creating images with the P&S and the DSLR and then compare results at the end. Yu can repeat this for lens selection too.
     
  24. sjl macrumors 6502

    sjl

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    #24
    He's half right. You don't need a DSLR. I have a DSLR, but I don't need it; my life would go on just as well without it.

    Why did I buy a DSLR? It's about control. Manual focus (for example) on a DSLR is easy; on a P&S, it's a right royal pain in the butt (and yes, there are times when manual focus is necessary - last night, I was taking some night shots in Melbourne; the camera couldn't figure out the right focus, so I had to take over.) Flash flexibiity: I like to be able to bounce the flash off the ceiling, or otherwise take it as far away from the lens as possible; that is not an option with most P&S cameras. (Why do I want to be able to bounce the flash? It gives a better look to the photo - much more natural. Look at the light we have during the day - it comes from above, and is generally fairly diffuse, right? We almost never have a strong light coming from the area of our eyes ...)

    Aperture control. It's nice to be able to control the depth of field; some types of shot call for a shallow depth of field; some call for a large depth of field. This is also much easier to achieve with a larger sensor size, which you'll only find in DSLRs, not in P&S - a typical P&S has a sensor that is as small as one fifth the size of a DSLR.

    Noise. The larger the size of the pixels, the less noise you'll have in the image. An 8 MP DSLR will whomp all over an 8 MP P&S, assuming similar quality optics, especially when you have to crank up the ISO to higher levels when the scene is a bit darker.

    Using the right lens for the job. I have four lenses: the EF-S 10-22mm, the EF-S 17-85mm, the EF 50mm f/1.4, and the EF 100-400mm L. I've taken shots with each of those lenses that would literally be impossible with any of the other lenses (too wide, too long, or too wide an aperture.) You don't have to have a large collection of lenses to take good shots, but it's very useful to have the flexibility if you need it down the road.

    DSLRs get superceded with better options, it's true. But that doesn't mean a DSLR you buy today will stop taking pictures when a better one becomes available. I have an EOS 20D. The EOS 30D is a better camera, but not significantly so. I'd love an EOS 5D, but that doesn't mean I'm not happy with the 20D. My money at the moment (photography wise) is going towards lenses, not camera bodies, and that's doing more for my photography than buying a new camera could do.

    I know people who have the EOS 10D, and they are very happy with it. It won't take EF-S lenses, but for what they're doing, that's not a major issue. So yes, they can get a better camera, it's superceded technology, but it still takes good pictures, and that's all they care about.

    Lastly: remember that the megapixel myth is just that: a myth. Sensor size and optics quality matters far more than the number of pixels a camera is capable of shoving into a picture. I'd rather have a Canon EOS 1D (four megapixel) with high quality L series glass than a 10 MP point and shoot, any day - the former will produce much better pictures, despite having a much lower megapixel count. (It'll also cost significantly more, but that just proves the adage that you get what you pay for.)
     
  25. M@lew macrumors 68000

    M@lew

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    #25
    Also, after reading that you won't be buying anymore lenses in the future, I say you'd be better off with the S3. That has pretty much most of the features of the 350D.
     

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