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Dual 500 Mhz or 933Mhz?

dual processors

get the dual processor machine. What everyone seems to miss is that OSX divides up the tasks so it is not necessary for the the apps to be dual aware. One dumb time consuming task can run on one processor while another dumb task runs on the other. and who knows what you will be doing in the future? also youcant have too much RAM. It is cheap. It is nice to have lots of apps open and ready to go. No waiting.
Enjoy.
 
Mid...

Actually, RAM boosts your computer a lot. And, I wanted the 1GB of RAM for ME, not him. I really think you would get more out of a 933. It is NEWER, and has a WAY FASTER BUS. I mean WAY faster. It COMES with a good graphics card, and you can get an extra 80 gig hard drive for 50 dollars. That is if I was getting one. If I were you, I would buy a 933 with 512 RAM. You would be running great!

I am NOT saying a dualie is not a good computer, but a 500? I mean, its a great computer and all, but I think a 933 would do your normal stuff a little faster.

Mid..."why does he need all t he dual processing power for a small ammount of things" If you didnt notice, I was copying you.

Hey, why not an iMac? Get the 1499 model and you would be running pretty dam good.
 
Re: Mid...

Originally posted by Mac_User
Hey, why not an iMac? Get the 1499 model and you would be running pretty dam good.
Click to expand...

Finally a statement I can agree to; if you MUST upgrade so dramatically, get an iMac. It would be FAR cheaper, FAR faster than what you need and it would outperform my machine by probably 2 fold (just proving the jealously factor).
 
iMac...

Yea, an iMac would be pretty cool. Got a nice graphics card, and able to hold 1GB of RAM😛 If you must go to a tower, I have found you a match. www.g4store.com has an 800MHz G4 for cheap!
 
Wow - I didn't think I'd start such a war!

Couple of things.
The extra RAM is WAY necessary - I usually have Word, PPT, IE, PowerMail, Palm, Classic and Lotus Notes for OS open a the same time - not to mention also writing/running Java and all the other mini apps I have running.... So the extra RAM ( I actually will only get 896M) will definately be needed (have you run top lately and looked at memory usage/fragmentation?)

As for the hard drive - OK 15K might be over kill, but a 18G 10K RPM is $219 - so for 80+ $ more I get at least a 50% faster drive - sounds good to me...

I could almost see the IMAC.....but I will see what the drive and ram do - I think the DP wil be sufficent -

BTW - I think all computers are too slow by definition - timei si money - Einstein proved that and those milliseconds spent waiting to switch tasks add up!
 
Originally posted by maclamb
Wow - I didn't think I'd start such a war!

Couple of things.
The extra RAM is WAY necessary - I usually have Word, PPT, IE, PowerMail, Palm, Classic and Lotus Notes for OS open a the same time - not to mention also writing/running Java and all the other mini apps I have running.... So the extra RAM ( I actually will only get 896M) will definately be needed (have you run top lately and looked at memory usage/fragmentation?)

As for the hard drive - OK 15K might be over kill, but a 18G 10K RPM is $219 - so for 80+ $ more I get at least a 50% faster drive - sounds good to me...

I could almost see the IMAC.....but I will see what the drive and ram do - I think the DP wil be sufficent -

BTW - I think all computers are too slow by definition - timei si money - Einstein proved that and those milliseconds spent waiting to switch tasks add up!
Click to expand...

I have 384Mb and I run IE, Word, Entourage, Classic, Photoshop, DreamWeaver, Powerbuilder, AppletLauncher, iTunes and a Terminal window on a 40GB 7200 RPM drive and I NEVER have RAM or speed trouble. I want a Rev2. G5 when they come out for when I do work in programs like Bryce or heavy Photoshop work but I don't NEED it (I don't use Bryce for money, only for pleasure). You are just getting caught up in the hype. Extra RAM does = Extra speed but ONLY to a degree. If you are not using the extra RAM you have then it is usless. I think 512MB would be perfect for me but I work quite comfortably with 384MB.

As for time = money, if you are looking to spend $2000 but you worry about every $0.01 then you should probably reevaluate your financial situation.
 
This thread reminds me of the masses of PC people who overclock their machines. With the money they spend on the small increase given by overclocking on items like cooling systems they could have just bought a better machine. I see the same for this adding 1GHz RAM and 15000RPM drive on top of a DP500 card and the ATA100 card, if you are going to do that you might as well get a real machine instead of slowly wasting money on stuff that goes a little faster.
 
Re: overclocking

Originally posted by kansaigaijin
but it is fun!
crank up the speed until it crashes.
adrenaline rush when you restart.
Click to expand...

ROFL, almost as big as the rush you get in a month to the local computer store when your chip burns out from running faster than it was designed for.
🙂
 
Re: overclocking

Yes, overclocking is fun. Thats one reason people do it. Also it is not always possible to just buy a faster computer and not overclock. When the fastest cpu is Xmhz, and you want Ymhz, which doesn't exist, overclocking is the only way to get there. Not that this has anything to do with this topic, but it just looked like you were trying to say all pc users who overclock are dumb.

-Brian (a former pc overclocker, and a new owner of a dual 1ghz g4, which won't be overclocked 🙂 )
 
madamimadamtimallen

Well YMMV

I disagree about the RAM completely and I had 256M sitting around and got 512M for $100.

Both the SCSI card and Drive would work fine in either a 933/or even G5 or G6 when it comes out - and while I don't do 3D animation work - I do play with Electric Image and Strata as a hobby. And may do more or audio later. And the price difference is not all that great

So, I thnk my decison to get the ram and scsi/hd - for a total of $700 a good investment.
The drive isn't going to get SLOWER and I do believe that, except for Processor intensive ops, the RAM and HD are what most people see as machine speed.

As for the DP500? Well it's $700 for the card - as opposed to $2100 for a new 933.

So I think my steps are logical and make sense -
If I got the IMAC I wopuld be stuck with a machine I can't upgrade with a small (10*7) resolution - YUCK - for me I want the ability to run two (or more) monitors, plus add drives, cards as needed. A mchine to grow with.

My question was which is the better choice DP500 or 933.
I would love to see some benchmarks.
They are ~ equal in total CPU, but 933 is 1/3 faster bus (though I'm willing to be it's not that linear) and Apollo chip is faster - but how much?

I take the $600 out of the equation, b/c I can reuse it later -
So at most I blew $180 - and 80 of that went into "wasted speed" in your words.
I get paid that in 2 hours. And I'm willing to blow two hours of work for a VERY fast drive. Who knows - the whole systme might perk up (given swap space, etc).
 
I have seen the benefit of pumping up the amount of RAM in a system. Even though I went to 1.5GB in my G4 tower, I doubt that I will go that high when I get my next one. I will probably get an additional 512MB (on top of whatever ships with it). I will either go with the drive Apple ships with it, and add a second one later if/when I need it. I have enough external drives to handle my needs for the moment (all FireWire).

It's amazing how much memory games want these days. I usually set UT to 512MB so that it goes full bore and doesn't crap out on me. Oni also wanted a good amount to run without going down. Photoshop always wants more memory, anything that you can toss it's way, it will suck up and beg for more. Especially when you scan negatives for reproduction later (100MB+ file sizes) and then manipulate them. I believe that Adobe recommends setting Photoshop's memory to about 4x the file size that you will be working with (if not more). Illustrator is more relaxed with what it wants, but benefits from either 128MB or 256MB allocated to it.

I found that the increased system bus, and other motherboard improvements that Apple made between my 604e machine and my G4 were more then enough to negate the benefit of faster spinning hard drives. This will especially be true if Apple starts shipping either ATA100 or ATA133 drives in their G4/G5 systems.

I wonder what kind of video cards will be standard issue in Apple's towers in about 6 months when I am ready for my new one. Until then, and after I sell my current G4 tower, I will have to 'suffer' with my 500MHz TiBook. I have it increased to 512MB of RAM, and am getting ready to replace the 20GB hard drive with IBM's new 60GB drive 😀
 
Re: Re: overclocking

Originally posted by madamimadamtimallen


ROFL, almost as big as the rush you get in a month to the local computer store when your chip burns out from running faster than it was designed for.
🙂
Click to expand...

If you overclock and you burn out your chip, you are doing something wrong. If the computer doesn't POST at a higher speed, you turn it off, its that easy. I have a celeron 300A that has been running 24/7 at 464MHz since I bought it.
 
Re: Re: overclocking

Originally posted by balliet
Yes, overclocking is fun. Thats one reason people do it. Also it is not always possible to just buy a faster computer and not overclock. When the fastest cpu is Xmhz, and you want Ymhz, which doesn't exist, overclocking is the only way to get there. Not that this has anything to do with this topic, but it just looked like you were trying to say all pc users who overclock are dumb.

-Brian (a former pc overclocker, and a new owner of a dual 1ghz g4, which won't be overclocked 🙂 )
Click to expand...

For people who overclock there is almost always a faster machine. As a GENERALISATION, people with the most powerful computers don't overclock but people will the latest pentium do. The fact is, even in the PC world, there are faster machines than a regular pentium or athlon.
 
Originally posted by maclamb
madamimadamtimallen

Well YMMV

I disagree about the RAM completely and I had 256M sitting around and got 512M for $100.

Both the SCSI card and Drive would work fine in either a 933/or even G5 or G6 when it comes out - and while I don't do 3D animation work - I do play with Electric Image and Strata as a hobby. And may do more or audio later. And the price difference is not all that great

So, I thnk my decison to get the ram and scsi/hd - for a total of $700 a good investment.
The drive isn't going to get SLOWER and I do believe that, except for Processor intensive ops, the RAM and HD are what most people see as machine speed.

As for the DP500? Well it's $700 for the card - as opposed to $2100 for a new 933.

I take the $600 out of the equation, b/c I can reuse it later -
So at most I blew $180 - and 80 of that went into "wasted speed" in your words.
I get paid that in 2 hours. And I'm willing to blow two hours of work for a VERY fast drive. Who knows - the whole systme might perk up (given swap space, etc).
Click to expand...

How are you planning to reuse the DP500 later??? I may be wrong, but I believe that even Sonnet says that they are not for the current generation systems (won't work in the Digital Audio systems forward). They could come out with newer upgrades, which would be nice. Who wouldn't love to see them come out with a DP933 or even a DP1GHz upgrade??

I intend to get a new system every 3-4 years. I am getting ready to replace my G4 500MHz in about 6 months, and will consider replacing my TiBook in about two years. I went and got the Apple protection on the TiBook, so when that runs out, I will look and see what is being offered. The only computers that I can actually get excited about are from Apple. I know more then a few people that look forward to the announcements to see what wonders are being released.

Currently, Apple is the ONLY computer company making innovations, and actually opening up retail locations. All the rest are closing doors, and laying off people, or have in the past few months.

When was the last time people lined up to get a look at a new *shudder* dell or such peecee??? Can someone put a muzzle on the dell commercial guy PLEASE!!! Either that, or give the guy some tranks.... Something to knock him out for the next few years 😀

dude.. you getting a hell.. I mean dell, well, a PoC any ways.
 
Originally posted by maclamb
My question was which is the better choice DP500 or 933.
I would love to see some benchmarks.
Click to expand...

Who needs a benchmark, the 933 is WAY faster.... I did see some comparisons on instructions per second here somewhere but I don't remember exactly what they were. The gist was that the Apollo really is much faster PLUS 1 processer = faster in classic except in stuff like Photoshop but the faster bus = one big improvement and NEVER forget that extra cache.

There is no question, the 933 is FAR better.

I think you should look at it like I do; the business owns my computer and I just bought an iMic (USB to analoge in and out) and extra RAM and that helps me make sure I can slowly just put aside a little here and a little there until MYSF (IMO) when I can (hopefully) get a Rev.2 G5. That way I have a machine now that is more than enough and I barely notice the money I am forking out for the machine which will be fast enough to make all stuff I do for pleasure in the 3D world look like a Photoshop sharpen on a 1MB image does on this machine.
 
Re: Re: Re: overclocking

Originally posted by balliet


If you overclock and you burn out your chip, you are doing something wrong. If the computer doesn't POST at a higher speed, you turn it off, its that easy. I have a celeron 300A that has been running 24/7 at 464MHz since I bought it.
Click to expand...

I will admit it, I was just being a bit of a wanker to show my distaste for overclocking. Hey, I like to think different but, like Apple, when I think different I also like to think logical. If you can have fun and logic, life is SO much better.
 
Re: Re: Re: overclocking

Originally posted by madamimadamtimallen


For people who overclock there is almost always a faster machine. As a GENERALISATION, people with the most powerful computers don't overclock but people will the latest pentium do. The fact is, even in the PC world, there are faster machines than a regular pentium or athlon.
Click to expand...

As a rule of thumb, 6 months (or less) after you get your computer, there are faster ones on the market. This is true in both the Mac and pc world. It is the nature of the computer beast.

One of the side effects of overclocking is excessive heat. That same heat will also degrade your system components. Even if you manage to eliminate most of it, some will leak into other parts of your motherboards architecture and shorten it's life span. The people that I have spoken with about overclocking have mentioned that it typically cuts the computer's life span in half, or less. A system that would normally last four years can burn out in as little as a few weeks, or last a few years, depending on how far they go and what is in the box. A good reason to not do that with an Apple, besides the fact that any overclocking voids your warranty. You do that, and forget about getting any service from Apple when it goes wacky.
 
Ok in case anyone else didn't notice this, this guy isn't running anything so processor intensive that he needs anything with 2 processors! he's not shell compiling, video editing, song composing, nothing like that; he's using the run of the mill buisiness apps that don't require more than a g3 processor to run! Here we are talking about a dp 500 (if you read the review on the sonnet dp 500 upgrade card you would realize that it's not all its cracked up to be) with 15k rpm drives, yada yada yada... for running word!

"darn this word document isn't scrolling fast enough for me! better upgrade to a dp 1 ghz or i'll go nuts!!"

this machine needs to be expandable why? a lot of people code on systems that are years old and have not upgraded them since. writing java is not that amazingly intensive that it requires the cream of the hardware top to compile it. But hey if you think you need a 360 gig 10krpm level 5 raid "java back up" connected to a dual channel scsi 160 card, i guess you might make it expandable, nah.

You need a 15 or 10k drive to do what, save your jscript to disk at lightning fast speed? If memory servers java is parsed to memory so you would want to spen your money on memory NOT an expensive, noisy drive (i work with them daily and prefer the silence of a good 7200 rmp drive anyday. And to tell you the truth there really isnt that much of a difference for short burst transfers to warrant the cost)

In my own opinion you want a fast, SILENT, moderately powerful machine for an office. Think about it, why would you want to listen to the constant high pitched whine of a 15 k drive all day? What about the fans on the back of the quicksilver case? I'm thinking iMac here folks. single 800 g4 w/ superdrive and a 15 inch lcd, decent graphics the works.

You don't need anything faster you really don't. and you can run a second monitor with the imac anyway. Or why don't you just bring your tibook into work? fast, second monitor, 1 gig ram the whole bit. And it has gig E (if you actually need it)

Still my vote is on the iMac. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Onyxx

Finally, someone else who is actually on the level. I know that, on my machine, I am looking to get a PCI sound card for higher level audio production but previous to this I had NO trouble with the iMacs I had and the only expansion I ever needed was more HD space as I got more and more into video and more RAM as I started moving into more areas and, therefore, more simultanious programs. I know I don't need a new machine but if you WANT a faster machine, the 933 is better than a DP500, esp. when it is on an expansion card.
 
Excellent points about how the latest and greatest isn't needed by everyone. I intend to get back into 3d/4d creation when I get the new desktop. I will also be updating my versions of Bryce and Poser to the latest to take advantage of their features. I do know that a faster processor (not faster hard drives) really do make a difference there. Video cards also help, so a high end video card does give rendering a performance boost. Essentially, it takes some of the task away from the CPU and renders it faster. I can hardly imaging what it will be like to render a world in Bryce 5 on a G4 of the next set. That is, assuming that Apple will be releasing processor speed bumps in the next 6 months or so.

I also have some other 3d applications, like Cinema 4d that benefit from faster processors and gobs of RAM.

Apple makes a system that fits just about everyone's needs. For people that want to run office and such, the iMac. For the student, running office and such, the iBook. For the professional on the go, the TiBook. For the serious power user running Photoshop, FCP, and other design and 3d applications, the G4 towers. It all depends on what your needs are, and what you plan to use the system for in the future. If you just see using it for email and such, go for an iMac. If you want to be able to increase the memory (more then just adding one chip) as well as adding storage later, go for the towers. If mobility is what you really want, then let your wallet decide if the iBook or TiBook are right for you.

Everyone should have at least one Mac system, whatever that happens to be 😀
 
🙂

Originally posted by AlphaTech
If you want to be able to increase the memory (more then just adding one chip) as well as adding storage later, go for the towers.
Click to expand...

I agree with everything except this point; I see no reason why could can not add 2 memory chips and extra storage to the iMac later on... they are both possible, just not user installable anymore (minus one RAM chip).
 
Well, aside from the sniping, there was much here that has helped.
I have reconsidered the 15K drive ( i have a spare 10K and will try that first - _excellent_ point about the noise).
As for the DP upgrade, I am reconsidering - and will look at reviews - though it would have been helpful to give at least one link ;-).

But guys, I have to say, some of your arguments, while true on face value (a 15K hard drive to save word docs or write Java) no that's not what I was thinking.
I'm thinking I have to run lotus notes under classic till next release comes out, word and ppt both are sluggish (IMHO - but it's my time and patience - not yours, you cannot judge my experience - just as I don't judge yours) IE is slow and NS is worse.

And yes, I could bring my TI to work - but I ride a motorcycle and don't want to drag it back and forth everyday, and would rather leave it at home to act as a server...
BUT
Now I am thinking of getting the 933 for home/server/3d/audio/web design, and leave the ti at work.

now THAT may work well...

And More thing...I have two MC's - a BWM K100 - 12 yrs old and a 2000 K1200 - while I don;t ride croiss country - and short rides the K100 is fine and people mught say the K1200 is a waste - when I _do_ spend hours on it I appreciate the extras (smooth, for one) -
IAnd I thnk the same is true for a computer - when I hjavbe to use that thing 9 hours a day - the little things you dismiss (as in I should have more patience) become bigger.

I appreciate the technical opinions - the judgements not so much - I get the sense you are dissing me for wanting a really fast computer - but of course i was misreading all that , right 😕 😱
 
Re: Onyxx

Originally posted by madamimadamtimallen
Finally, someone else who is actually on the level. I know that, on my machine, I am looking to get a PCI sound card for higher level audio production but previous to this I had NO trouble with the iMacs I had and the only expansion I ever needed was more HD space as I got more and more into video and more RAM as I started moving into more areas and, therefore, more simultanious programs. I know I don't need a new machine but if you WANT a faster machine, the 933 is better than a DP500, esp. when it is on an expansion card.
Click to expand...

Very true... The new systems have larger pipelines that allow things to move faster through the system. Chances are, there are enough of those to make the 933 system out perform a system upgraded with the DP500. Find someone to buy the older system from you, or donate it to a family member that doesn't have a computer.

I am seriously thinking about donating my TiBook in two years (or so) to my niece and nefew so that they can see how even an old Mac can do more then a few tricks. They will be old enough by then to not trash the computer, and I will tell them that they had better not destroy it 😉

They love the fact that they can play any game that is dual platform on any of my Mac systems, but about half of them won't run on their fathers compaq PoC.

Anyone that needs an easy to use, easy to maintain/fix system should get a Mac. I know, I work on them all day long and prefer the Mac's to the few peecee's at the office (250 Mac's and about 45 peecee's). Those window boxes can be soooo picky sometimes... and it takes hours sometimes just to reinstall an OS. The LONGEST it ever took me on a Mac (aged system) was about 20 minutes, with the typical install being under 10 minutes. I have just created an installer with all of our Mac software that will reduce my configuration time to about an hour for a full bore install. That includes PhotoShop 6.0.1, Illustrator 9.0.2, Acrobat (full or reader), ATM/ATR, Adobe PS (8.7.3), Fonts (system and others), Quark XPress 4.11 (until we get version 5), office 2001 (with both updates), outlook 2001, FileMaker Pro (5.0 and 5.5). It has taken me most of this week to get the installer right, since it was my first attempt, but now that it is ready, it will make life even easier. Our corporate office used to provide us with a similar cd, but the last one we got from them was useless. That was many months ago, and I got tired of waiting and doing the installs the hard way.

I can hear the mantra starting in the background... "Mac's are superior"
 
maclamb

I have a backpack bag for my TiBook that I use in the summer when I ride the motorcycle to work too. I am selling my 1991 Yamaha Virago 750 in order to get a 2002 HD Softail Standard (with some alterations before it leaves the lot). The new ride is arriving in March at the dealership and I can hardley wait for it.

I know that 10,000 rpm Seagate Cheetah hard drives are still louder then the ATA drives that ship in the desktops. I had a pair in mine until I got tired of the whining sound (from the drives) and just replaced the two with a 40GB Maxtor drive. The drive sound went down, which made it easier to use (noise pollution).

One thing you might want to consider picking up, is Norton Utilities, or System Works. I picked up System Works because it came with the latest version of NAV at the time, and I was upgrading from an older version of NUM. I boot off the cd (modified cd that I created with the latest OS installer along with DiskWarrior 3, and TechTool Pro 3.0.1) and run the utilities. I have found that running all three (DW then TTP then NUM) can fix slow systems (that shouldn't be that slow). M$ applications are known to be slow to respond, depending on the version, OS you have, and if you have run the updaters that m$ provides every so often. So far, they have released two updates to office for OS X (how long has that been out now???). I don't let TTP do the surface scan on the drives, nor check for conflicts or viruses. I have NAV for the virus checking, and Speed Disk does a better job at optimizing (faster too).
 
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