Duet Display for iPad Gains 'Pro' Drawing Features

[kingtj]

You're missing the point entirely, IMO. It's not about "if someone who can manage to buy a $1,000 iPad can afford $20/yr. for a subscription". It's about the trend as a whole. Look, that $1,000 iPad Pro I'm using? I don't even have the thing paid off yet, because I didn't pay for it up front. I took T-Mobile up on the offer to pay for it in monthly installments with 0% interest, tacked onto my cellular bill. With everyone going to subscription models and arguing, "Oh, come on. It's only a few more dollars per month. You can afford it!" - eventually, you can go completely broke with this stuff! I mean, let's look at the "off the top of my head" list of things I'm already paying monthly fees on:

- World of Warcraft subscription for my daughter
- Netflix subscription
- Amazon Prime membership
- DropBox subscription
- Vonage VoIP phone service
- Office 365 subscription
- Sirius/XM satellite radio
- Costco membership

And I'm someone who hates subscription-based things, avoiding as many as possible.

The advantage of buying software up-front is that yes, you just budget for it that one time, purchase it, and then own and use it freely for as long as you like. The argument that developers have to keep supporting it is pretty irrelevant because that was never really the case! What usually happens is they fix and maintain a given major version until the next major version or two goes on sale. Then, support for the older one dies out and you either live with what you've got, or eventually elect to pay again to get the current release.

I'm not buying it - someone who purchases a $1000 iPad can pay $20/year. Period. You presented an edge case argument at best - your priorities are not where they should be for your "budget" if you cannot afford to spend that on software you "want" if it means giving up other amenities.

Software as a service is the only way that professional productivity applications (Adobe, Duet Pro, 1Password, Office, Omnisuite, etc. etc. etc.) are going to survive in the future. People think they can buy software and have it "for life" but then conveniently forget about the concept called software maintenance (which isn't free - the developers have to "budget" for that too...).

Read this for perspective:

https://stratechery.com/2013/adobes-subscription-model-why-platform-owners-should-care/

[doublepost=1477493309][/doublepost]The OTHER simple concept you're ignoring, though, is that MANY people will pay a one-time fee to add some functionality to their systems that they didn't have before, even if it's just an impulse buy and it's not something they use that often.

However, when you get into recurring fees to keep a software product working? Now you're saying, "If you're not really using this thing regularly? This is a reminder to stop spending money on it and get rid of it!" That seems like a bad business decision to me.

I think you've passionately explained an otherwise simple concept: If you don't find the product useful enough to pay for its creation or continued development, then don't buy it.

But your complaint about the performance of DD aside, it can't be over emphasized that Applications don't just grow on magical Application trees whose fruits you can pick at whatever cost you want. Hundreds/thousands of hours of time are spent writing code, debugging, researching etc. In addition, there is there is the cost of being an Apple Developer (Developer ID, and Apple's 30% cut), business licenses, taxes, advertising and other costs of promotion.

You don't just create an app as good as DD by hacking away on Xcode over a couple of weekends. Paying $1.67 a month to support the development of the app seems like a silly thing to be complaining about, especially when you consider the alternative scenario of the developer discontinuing the app because they couldn't financially sustain it's development.

 

[Donka]

I agree a lot with what @superberg is saying and said as much from a hobbyist point of view. I've never had a serious need for a graphics tablet which is why I never bought one before. If I was a pro, I'm sure I would be looking at a Cintique or similar.
Now purely as a hobbyist, an app that would let me use hardware I already own to experiment and gain a lot of that functionality is of great of interest. I'm happy to pay for such an app as a one off. A subscription though gives an added layer to the decision making that is harder to justify.
As an amateur photographer, I could quite easily purchase Lightroom or even Photoshop but I'm happy to stick with Aperture and Affinity Photo. With Photo, I'm paying a one off fee for an app that I will use in a recreational fashion as needed. I would be looking for something similar with a supporting app like this.
I understand that even if a developer was sympathetic to the views or needs of an amateur user, there is no real way to discern between those and a pro user.
I'm grateful that such apps exist but I'm sure this opens the door for other developers to create something more appropriate or at a more suitable pricing point for the amateurs out there that make no money from using such apps.

 

[Bob Zimmerman]

... I can also tell you that absolutely no professional end-user is excited about leasing software. Most of our clients are using old versions of Meraki and over-burdened instances of Profile Manager because they don't want to pay annual per-device contracts for MDM. Clients have stuck to older, non-365 versions of Office. Most of our clients are trying to reign in technology spending, not expand it.

At my employer, "cloud" nonsense is suddenly big. People desperately want to host stuff in AWS or Azure or wherever, even though it's around 30x as expensive (not a typo; thirty times as expensive) as hosting it ourselves for more than two months. I am told it is an accounting thing: capital expenditures versus operational expenditures. For some reason I don't fully understand, our accountants are willing to accept millions of dollars per month in operational expenditure before they will accept even $1k in capital expenditure. They no longer approve purchasing hardware; instead, they want us to lease it. I get that it gives you good predictability, but it does that by requiring you to pay out the nose on a constant basis. Making things predictably horrible doesn't seem like an improvement to me.

 

[dwsolberg]

Yes, many people don't understand the constant investment that developers make into apps, just to keep their "customers" happy. Think about this — a customer buys an app once, and then expects updates for free... possibly forever. How does a developer run his/her business that way? It's not realistic. What's the alternative, that each new release come with a new purchase price? Users don't like that approach either. They want free, and they feel that a one-time payment is "enough". So the business is faced with having to constantly increase market share, but there's only so much that can be done.

A software subscription price may not be attractive, but as you say, it's far better than a large one-time purchase price. $20 a year is ... $1.67 per month. People waste more than that every day on stuff they _don't_ need. #perspective

The other big issue for me is that then I need to track everything so that I know when to cancel. It's also annoying because you have to figure out HOW to cancel. Sure, it's easy, but you still need to do and remember a bunch of stuff. Just judging from the experiences of people I know (and myself), people tend to keep paying subscriptions well after they're needed because they're either lazy, busy, or forgetful.

None of this is a problem with a new app every year that costs $20.

 

[Analog Kid]

Bug fixes are definitely part of selling software, but for how long? If you look around on the app store, the best ones that don't sell subscriptions eventually sell a 2.0 and 1.0 breaks with new iOS builds, which is pretty much subscription.

By the way, we also maintain servers & storage as we have to deliver updates for our app very frequently (among a lot of other ongoing monthly costs). Instead of focusing on the model, think about the actual cost to the user. For a professional app that can replace a Wacom, is $1.67 a month for this functionality really that high? In that, we are giving frequent updates, around the clock customer support, and will roll out future improvements to subscribers instead of a series of calculated in app purchases.

Maybe I don't fully understand what you need frequent updates for... If the hardware hasn't changed, and the desired functionality hasn't changed, what needs to be updated beyond bug fixes? If an OS update breaks drivers as the last few generations of MacOS have, then that's on Apple and I choose whether to update my OS and apps depending on the value I get from the new OS. There's times I haven't. And you choose whether alienating customers is worth a paid upgrade. There's times it isn't.

This does raise a question about the opposite scenario: will subscribers be guaranteed support for their older hardware and OS going forward? Paying a subscription for new OS and hardware support implies that it will be provided in addition to the existing support for older OSs and hardware. Otherwise we're being forced to update everything we have just to keep using your product because, without a subscription, it will no longer work at all but the updated versions no longer supports older systems.

 

[superberg]

At my employer, "cloud" nonsense is suddenly big. People desperately want to host stuff in AWS or Azure or wherever, even though it's around 30x as expensive (not a typo; thirty times as expensive) as hosting it ourselves for more than two months. I am told it is an accounting thing: capital expenditures versus operational expenditures. For some reason I don't fully understand, our accountants are willing to accept millions of dollars per month in operational expenditure before they will accept even $1k in capital expenditure. They no longer approve purchasing hardware; instead, they want us to lease it. I get that it gives you good predictability, but it does that by requiring you to pay out the nose on a constant basis. Making things predictably horrible doesn't seem like an improvement to me.

We're likely in different fields. Most of the clients I work with are school districts with ever-shrinking budgets. The only cloud solutions they're migrating to are Google for Education.

Because it's free.

 

[subjonas]

That's a great point and honestly if you stuck to one version of macOS, one version of iOS, and one version of Photoshop, our product would probably not break. But the sand beneath us moves and it is far simpler for a professional to pay just over a buck a month and have the latest app that won't break.

Yes but professional or not, taking away the tool if/when the customer stops paying the subscription--is the underlying issue. Wouldn't it be far more logical and fair to both sides to offer an up-front base cost then charge for the updates, which the customer can opt into or not? Then whenever the customer decides to stop updating, he/she keeps whatever has been paid for up until that point? How is that not in the best interest of everyone?

 

[rahulda1]

The other big issue for me is that then I need to track everything so that I know when to cancel. It's also annoying because you have to figure out HOW to cancel. Sure, it's easy, but you still need to do and remember a bunch of stuff. Just judging from the experiences of people I know (and myself), people tend to keep paying subscriptions well after they're needed because they're either lazy, busy, or forgetful.

None of this is a problem with a new app every year that costs $20.

There is nothing to stop, if you don't use it that year we will not charge you. It is a manual subscription you have to manually renew specifically to prevent that.
[doublepost=1477542448][/doublepost]

This does raise a question about the opposite scenario: will subscribers be guaranteed support for their older hardware and OS going forward? Paying a subscription for new OS and hardware support implies that it will be provided in addition to the existing support for older OSs and hardware. Otherwise we're being forced to update everything we have just to keep using your product because, without a subscription, it will no longer work at all but the updated versions no longer supports older systems.

Yes
[doublepost=1477542589][/doublepost]

Yes but professional or not, taking away the tool if/when the customer stops paying the subscription--is the underlying issue. Wouldn't it be far more logical and fair to both sides to offer an up-front base cost then charge for the updates, which the customer can opt into or not? Then whenever the customer decides to stop updating, he/she keeps whatever has been paid for up until that point? How is that not in the best interest of everyone?

That sounds great and I have tried to think of a way to make that work. Unfortunately the payments have to be on the iOS side because of App Store rules, where as the sophisticated engine and critical updates are on the desktop side. It would be a non-trivial amount of extra work to segment the desktop app's engine into old and new parts and use features based on which version of duet pro you bought on iOS.

 

[Gasu E.]

Software is a "product" not a "service". Netflix is a "service" not a "product".

Not 100% true; typically it's a hybrid of product and services. High end commercial products bundle support (a service) and a stream of functional enhancements. A company enhancing a product you have already licensed and installed is providing a service.

Keep in mind, legally, you don't "buy" a software product-- you license the right to use it. Under your license, there are certain things you are not legally allowed to do; for example, giving it to another person; running it on an unlicensed machine; or "reverse engineer" it.

as a consumer, you may not read your license agreement or take it very seriously; so, for the consumer market, most software companies won't bothering making this distinction. I can assure you, however, that when corporations license software they read their agreements very carefully and try to stick to them. In the corporate world, the service aspect of software is very, very clear.

 

[subjonas]

That sounds great and I have tried to think of a way to make that work. Unfortunately the payments have to be on the iOS side because of App Store rules, where as the sophisticated engine and critical updates are on the desktop side. It would be a non-trivial amount of extra work to segment the desktop app's engine into old and new parts and use features based on which version of duet pro you bought on iOS.

I have heard the App Store rules make it difficult for developers to price their apps fairly, so if that's the case here then I sympathize and hope that situation changes soon. As far as the other logistical issues, they're probably too technical for me to understand right now so I'll take your word for it for the time being. I'm glad to hear you tried to figure out a way though. I hope that's not something you give up on but continue to consider until you find a solution, because I really believe subscriptions (renting in general) should only be done if there really are no better options, and only temporarily at that. Until a solution is found, do what you have to do. Like I said, I'll probably pay for the feature either way just because I'll likely find it useful for work. But no matter how useful I find it, it won't ever feel like a really good use of my money if I know I'll have to give back the product in the end no matter how much money I sank into it. Just to be clear though, it's about the principle more than the money. I'd rather pay twice as much and have something to show for it than pay half and have nothing in the end.

 

[dwsolberg]

There is nothing to stop, if you don't use it that year we will not charge you. It is a manual subscription you have to manually renew specifically to prevent that.
[doublepost=1477542448][/doublepost]

I like the manual subscription. Didn't know you could do that on the developer side.[/QUOTE]

 

[Nuvi]

@rahulda1. Here are the facts. I love your software. It's literally amazing and I love and NEED IT when editing with laptop. However, subscription software is like plague to me. I do my best to avoid it if anyway possible. I'm very much willing to pay for upgrades say once a year or so but they need to based on facts like system software updates which require changes in Duet or additional features etc. So, if you are ever releasing a Duet Pro as a separate app I'll be upgrading the second its made available. As far as I see it, there are couple of approaches you could take in order to make this happen (bundle like Omni has done or sales thru your own channel). One thing I really don't get why you are charging for iOS app and not the Mac app. As far as I get it the Mac app is the one doing the heavy lifting. Also making iOS app free and Mac app paid would allow you to cut Apple out of the loop and allows you to have trial periods. This would also allow you to release paid upgrades without App Store limitations.

 

[Zimmy68]

@duet. Also making iOS app free and Mac app paid would allow you to cut Apple out of the loop and allows you to have trial periods. This would also allow you to release paid upgrades without App Store limitations.

That is a great idea if it were only on the Mac side. It would be difficult to implement on Windows. Then you would have to worry about copy protection and license keys, etc.

Much easier to let Apple (they have to earn their 30% somehow) handle it.

Also, if you go through the OS X App store, I think Apple still sips 30% off the top.

 

[rahulda1]

@rahulda1. Here are the facts. I love your software. It's literally amazing and I love and NEED IT when editing with laptop. However, subscription software is like plague to me. I do my best to avoid it if anyway possible. I'm very much willing to pay for upgrades say once a year or so but they need to based on facts like system software updates which require changes in Duet or additional features etc. So, if you are ever releasing a Duet Pro as a separate app I'll be upgrading the second its made available. As far as I see it, there are couple of approaches you could take in order to make this happen (bundle like Omni has done or sales thru your own channel). One thing I really don't get why you are charging for iOS app and not the Mac app. As far as I get it the Mac app is the one doing the heavy lifting. Also making iOS app free and Mac app paid would allow you to cut Apple out of the loop and allows you to have trial periods. This would also allow you to release paid upgrades without App Store limitations.

That's a great idea and I'd love to do that, but it is strongly discouraged/against App Store rules (mentioned earlier in this thread). It is also a significant undertaking (handling payments, keeping track of which/how many computers have licenses, etc.)

 

[Nuvi]

That's a great idea and I'd love to do that, but it is strongly discouraged/against App Store rules (mentioned earlier in this thread). It is also a significant undertaking (handling payments, keeping track of which/how many computers have licenses, etc.)

Regarding the App Store rules, I find it interesting since many developers are using a model in which iOS App Store is used only or partially for free app distribution (LogMeIn, Evernote etc.). Then again I know nothing about app development so I guess this is different case.

Regarding distribution, licensing, analytics etc. there are options which are much more cost efficient than MAS. For example FastSprings cut is under 9% which sounds far more reasonable than Apple's 30% cut. Anyway, thank you very much for your reply and hope you keep updating and upgrading your awesome software.

 

[10tacleBoy]

Just stumbled over this thread.

When I bought the iPad Pro and the Pencil I was interested in both Astropad and Duet. I was impressed by Duet due to its great performance while still keeping it's high resolution, but the lack of pressure sensitivity was a real deal breaker as I intended to use the iPad as a graphics tablet. So I kept using Astropad for the time being, which has two minor disadvantages compared to Duet. The screen gets pixelated each time you interact, and the screen is only mirroring, so you can't really use it as a second monitor in order to extend your workspace. However, I can live with that and at least Astropad has always been extremely reliable and fast and I really enjoy drawing on it.

In early 2016 I contacted Duet and asked when pressure sensitivity will come. Q2 2016 they said. I was looking forward and as idiotic as I am, I purchased Duet when it was on sale for 15€ or something (instead of 20) without even using it, just to "own it already" because I believed that soon enough there will be pressure sensitivity anyway.

With a huge delay they finally released this major update in October containing pressure sensitivity and I was so happy at first. But after updating and opening the app I got the popup saying that I need to pay 20€/year to get pressure sensitivity. Joking, right? Not only that this feature comes waaaay to late, how can you make such an obvious and long-awaited feature "pro" when you already paid for it not that long ago. I do admit that it was a stupid decision to buy Duet in advance, but I don't get how people are seriously defending such a business model. I only see a lot of excuses when reading things like "we can only improve our software by offering it as a subscription". I've never seen a piece of software that massively improved it's quality just by forcing people to rent it. It's just a smart move to make even more money, nothing else. Saying "you can spend 1000€ on an iPad but you're too greedy for 20€/year" is so wrong. Of course 20€/year aren't that much at first, but after a year you would've spent 40€, then 60€ and so on, for an app that once cost 20€ one-time. There are several other reasons not to support that model. It's a boiling frog. It might not hurt having a subscription or two, but if every developer starts acting that way (and it seems it really is going that way), we will soon have tons of subscriptions and I simply dislike this trend.

However, I wouldn't even mind if it was optional so you can still decide whether you pay 20-30€ one-time or 5-10€ annually. But then again, adding pressure sensitivity, as much as I rely on it, is really not that pro-worthy when apps like Astropad have it onboard for no extra money.

So I'll stick to Astropad then.

 

[Seed101]

Anyone used this is comparison to something much cheaper and non-subscription like Duet Display?
If so, what are the main advantages for the price?

Thanks.

 

[Zimmy68]

Anyone used this is comparison to something much cheaper and non-subscription like Duet Display?
If so, what are the main advantages for the price?

Thanks.

Ummm, yeah, we all compared Duet Display to Duet Display.
Our conclusion? they are both great!

 

[Donka]

Anyone used this is comparison to something much cheaper and non-subscription like Duet Display?
If so, what are the main advantages for the price?

Thanks.

I'm assuming you are referring to the new Astropad Studio?

 

[Seed101]

I'm assuming you are referring to the new Astropad Studio?

Sorry yes, Astropad studio wrong thread..I think!!!

 

[Donka]

Is this still a yearly subscription or is it a one off IAP for Pro features? I took another look at this on the app store and it just lists a single IAP but doesn't mention subscription.

 

[campyguy]

Is this still a yearly subscription or is it a one off IAP for Pro features? I took another look at this on the app store and it just lists a single IAP but doesn't mention subscription.

It's yearly - it's buried at the last line of the App's Description…

 

[Donka]

Thanks for confirming. Shame but that makes it a no go for me.

 

[nastynick]

I just stumbled over this thread and found it quite interesting to follow.
When I saw 20$/year, I also thought that this was crazy.
I mean, honestly: It’s not as if there will be a groundbreaking new functionality every year. DD is a good utility, but its functionalities are limited.
There’s no way I would put regularly money in DD.

 

[spasm321]

Wait, what?!?! $20 a year? That's a joke right. I'll stick to Astropad with no yearly "rental" fee.

Just saw this post and now Astropaod has 80$/year subscription lol. Hope you didn’t update your app!