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You may think that customers love to pay in the App Store ... yet, the reality is a bit different. Has I’ve exposed before, the most revenue generating Apps/Businesses aren’t not even in the the top 100 most sold apps. Which basically indicates that once given other clear alternatives of payment customers opt for other forms of payment such as direct payment. Now, some companies simply don’t have enough brand awareness to pass other options of payment and promotions out side their apps.

If you look at the top 15 apps, with the exception of a few games they are either social media or streaming apps; which pint to the user base's use patterns, not whether they mind paying for Apps. For the streaming ones, no doubt some pay via Apple and others via external payments.

I'm not surprised business apps are not near the top simply because the % of use of iPhones for business that requires apps beyond those already included is small. The only apps I have for my business beyond Apple's are a scanner, time, and expense apps.

If you want to understand my stance ... it very simple:

Given their device market share I fundamentally object their policies that basically state, no App Store fees, no digital business through Apps for 50% of the population.

That's fine. However, Apple's success is not a reason to force them to change. Developers actually have a much better deal with the current system than under the old way of distributing apps. I think it will hurt small developers and users in the long run. Apple will probably raise the costs of things needed to develop an app, and can sandbox apps that are not signed or allow side loading but require an app to have a valid Apple issued certificate, for a fee of course, for example.

I further object their pricing scheme where they use the volume of business the digital business generates to establish their licencing and service price. It should be value based on usage not revenue.

Except that is an accepted standard for pricing - a product that generates more revenue brings in more money for the same margin.

Considering that 50% of the population uses iOS devices and demand digital services to be wherever they are in they devices of choice I believe that Apple does not follow FRAND principles in any shape or form regarding its approach to licensing their tech to third party digital services and software developers. The company believes that it generates 30% of the value any digital services deliver to their customers.

In FRAND terms, coining this practice as a Store is nothing but a smoke screen. Apple thinks precisely the same way I do when it comes to their suppliers. For digital services or software developer, Apple is nothing but a supplier. A supplier with a dominant position in the market. Do not confuse with monopoly. You don’t need to be a monopoly to have a dominant position.

You are misapplying FRAND. FRAND is intended to ensure access to intellectual property, such as patents, in exchange for incorporating it into industry standard. The App Store is a store, not an industry standard like USB for example. No one has to use it too bring a phone or app to market in order to be compatible with a standard. As a store, it sets what margin it wants from products it sells. Developers are the suppliers who need to decide if they want access to Apple's user base. If so, 30 or 15% is the cost, and one that is actually quite reasonable in exchange for Apple to handle all the distribution, hosting, payment, advertising costs they would have to cover under the old model of distribution.

I get that people think 30% is too high; but if you look at the historical costs of getting an app to market, which often left developers with 30% if they were lucky and had to cover all their costs with that, it's a bargain. You had to negotiate with a distributer, or place ads in magazines such Byte, Creative Computing, Nibble and hope people would buy your app. Piracy was a big concern. Look at Android, where piracy is much more prevalent and apps exist to facilitate it; much like the old bit copiers in the days of the Apple ][.

Have fun.


Will do. You too.
 
That's fine. However, Apple's success is not a reason to force them to change.

Fully agree. What forces them to change is the fact that given their device market share, the App Store policies aren’t anywhere close to anything close FRAND for reasons explained.

It’s up to regulators to establish a FRAND framework on software licensing when the market is not able to.

Except that is an accepted standard for pricing - a product that generates more revenue brings in more money for the same margin.

Well its not really accepted standard for licensing when it comes to licensing software or using a cloud service. The App Store is not an a Store the way it Is stacked. Within the stack a component is being a gateway for digital services to access and use technology already licensed by customers. Another piece of the stack is being a cloud service to deploy and update apps, again pricing complying with the accepted standards in the industry.

Neither is for buying technology components according to Apple objection to Qualcomm practice. In the realm usually price varies a per quantity of units ordered. Less units ordered more expensive is for unit. Nothing to do with the price of the end product.

So what you are indeed stating that such model of pricing simply a model of pricing amongst many. A model of pricing that is usually applied to Stores. But than again, the App Store is not a Store in almost all levels in its stack. Not only at the levels explained above but also at the Store level. If you go Amazon and buy an iPhone, it does not demand Apple 30% if its revenue over the apps sold by the App Store to your device. That is in effect what the in app purchase policies does! This is non standard behaviour of a Store, much less with such market dominance. Poor Apple if by that measure telcos start requiring 30% of App Store revenue to the devices they sold on top, Qualcomm requiring 30% of the revenue because it supplied a modem chip ... what’s next ... next it would go out of business.

Just because one points to a donkey and say “look at that horse”. It does not mean that the donkey starts acting like a horse. Is nothing but a donkey that someone called “horse”.

These is also very much facts.
 
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Fully agree. What forces them to change is the fact that given their device market share, the App Store policies aren’t anywhere close to anything close FRAND for reasons explained.

It’s up to regulators to establish a FRAND framework on software licensing when the market is not able to.

Software licensing is very different from FRAND's purpose. You gain access to software via purchase, subscription or for free, and everyone gets the same terms for software purchases.

Well its not really accepted standard for licensing when it comes to licensing software or using a cloud service. The App Store is not an a Store the way it Is stacked. Within the stack a component is being a gateway for digital services to access and use technology already licensed by customers. Another piece of the stack is being a cloud service to deploy and update apps, again not licensed per accepted standards.

Those examples are underlying technology used to run the app store. How the store is structured in terms of what tech it used to deliver apps is irrelevant for determining if it is a store.

Neither is for buying technology components according to Apple objection to Qualcomm practice. In the realm usually price varies a per quantity of units ordered. Less units ordered more expensive is for unit. Nothing to do with the price of the end product.

Apple is not buying anything. Apple does not pay developers for their app, set a price and sell it; and charge back unsold goods.

They are providing a platform for developers to sell their products via a consignment model. Developrs set a price, Apple takes a cut in return for providing the storefront, and the cut is the same regardless of units sold above and below the set threshold; which makes it cheaper for developers if their volume is low.

These is also very much a facts.

But not relevant ones.
 
FRAND is intended to ensure access to intellectual property, such as patents, in exchange for incorporating it into industry standard.

True. What I’m arguing is that its time for regulation in software licensing if its not already in place.

The FRAND license emphasizes providing the licensee with reasonable terms, e.g., by preventing a standard patent holder from extracting unreasonably high royalty rates. The same principles can and should be applied to software licensing.
 
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Everything in life is optional man. Stop confusing issues, we are talking about the App Store business model not the devices they sell. The second is what catapulted the company to such an incredible run. Keep doing that, its great. We aren’t talking monopolies here either. Another concept, called abuse of dominant position.
Correct about the devices. But your view is a narrow view of the app store being it's own monoplostic platform. Up until now the courts haven't agreed with this. Nor have the courts agreed with your "abuse of dominant position", probably because Apple is not a minority.
Still, software and hardware licensing will be regulated much like any other kind of licensing is. Just because you did not license some tech, you cannot be denied access to something else that that uses such tech, much less on things you own.
Whataboutism and some future hypothetical state of law.
It is assumed that the something else contains all the proper licenses to be fully used, included in the price in its price. In the Qualcomm vs Apple case was the chip, further more Apple objected to its price based on the value of the entire device rather than the component itself at market prices, which was far lower. Yet what Apple objected in Qualcomm practice is precisely what the App Store policies do, it denies access to devices sold device using properly licensed software, working as a gate enforcing further payments to Apple for its use both to their customers and their customers suppliers, and enforces an access prices taking into account the entire apps or digital service revenue in the device, not simply their tech as a component. Furthemore it cannot hurt their customers for such a measure, things such as voiding OS licensing if they install or pay for anything in App not going through the App Store payment service. This practice is simply “um-FRAND”.

Such thing does not happen with macOS / iMac, any Windows / PC , Android, Alexa platform you name it ... almost any piece of tech but Apple’s. And it wasn’t the App Store that made the iPhone / iPad phenomena, were thousands of other things that Apple did so well. App Store per App Store users would probably go somewhere else like they do.

Again Apple itself use these FRAND premisses when dealing with their suppliers, including Qualcomm. Imagine Qualcomm coming up with, “our chips power your device, your App Store works on your device requiring our very important technology and IPs, you can only exist because of our tech, therefore you need to give us 30% of the revenue of the App Store”. Would be ridiculous right? How would this be FRAND? The ones that don’t, such as XBox have very little expression in the digital service and app marketplace that are truly optional digital business wise Now Apple and Google are in a position to truly siphon money out of third party digital services as much as they feel like they need and block competition with their digital services when also needed.

Once this practice is regulated using FRAND premises nothing much will change really. Because the absolute most of software licensing schemes comply with this very simple premise, its stops with the “chip”. The one that seams to sell non compliance with simple concept of fairness as something of a virtue is fundamentally Apple. This is the company who is driving this bandwagon that others followed. Yet Apple argues this basic FRAND principles when facing their suppliers. The world was a bit confused ... as time passes ... it will become less and less confused.

Believe me, the iOS business will not collapse. In fact it may even grow far more in market presence as well as device sales, winning terrain over Android. Just not with such outrageous profit margins when it comes to the App Store dealings due to “un-frand” business practices. Far higher margins than anything device Apple sells. Take for instance, Windows, regulations did not hamper MS growth when stopped MS from trying to keep disruptive stuff out of “their” garden. They also faced more or less Apple situation back than when they saw Windows licensing would stall as the PC growth would stall flat, year over year .... They regrouped and pushed other incredible things out to the market, more matured Office business models, Azure ... you name it ... Unfortunately they got so complacent with their own success even still that missed the smarphone generation. Apple will do their own thing, the things they do best. Incredible new devices are in the pipeline driving Apple even more growth and profits. Don’t think Apple will be as complacent. It’s amazing what they do ... the App Store in the Apple universe is just a detail that needs to be corrected and it will, let’s not get lost in details. I would prefer Apple corrected it rather than be lead to correct it by many countries.
Anyway, most of the above words on a canvas, and something or nothing may happen over time. We will see.
 
But not relevant ones.

I guess will see sooner or later. What is of relevance is the current situation and the regulation process is already on wheels. If there was no issue for sure organizations all over the world would not be look at it.

No, its not because the company is very successful. Still when out of the blue huge profit margins for something as mundane as Digital App Store comes out ... you bet organizations will investigate the practices that lead to such conclusions.
 
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Whataboutism and some future hypothetical state of law.

Anyway, most of the above words on a canvas, and something or nothing may happen over time. We will see.


Why bother responding to the thread with this, it adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.

The proposed legal action is what the discussion topic is, if there wasn't any discussion about things that haven't happened yet the majority of this forum wouldn't exist.
 
Why bother responding to the thread with this, it adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.

The proposed legal action is what the discussion topic is, if there wasn't any discussion about things that haven't happened yet the majority of this forum wouldn't exist.
You can't refute "whataboutisms". Obviously there is a huge divide on the forum with a lot of downvoting, haha and liking by the various sides, which is fine, as everyone is entitled to their opinion and nobody holds the final answer.

I'm not going to refute (point by point) a hypothetical discussion of some arbitrary future of regulation of which I don't believe will come to pass. I am a proponent in the free market determining the viability of a companies business model, not regulations. (there are and should be exceptions to this and some concerns and industries have to be regulated)
 
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Those examples are underlying technology used to run the app store. How the store is structured in terms of what tech it used to deliver apps is irrelevant for determining if it is a store.

I digress. I believe words are used to convey behavior and set expectations. The only behavior the App Store has that overlaps with the concept of Store it’s that it displayed a catalogue of goods and requires payment for their consumption, case in case through licensing Apps. Now using than some artifice to demand payment for goods not in the catalogue much less serviced, than it behaves like something else.

Can one of you guys explain in logical terms fo what reason an app that sells an eBook, a product that is not in the store catalogue neither is served its infrastructure, Apple demands to be payed 15% to 30% of the sale. Where is the connection between the value that the App Store delivers and this sale. One needs to understand nothing about book retail to come up to such a connection. If the book retailer sells $10Mm, licensing the API to run the app and using the distribute it, yet not the books, how this valued in $3M, while one that sell $10 is valued $3? How? In what way that is the behaviour of a Store?

In the same line, demanding that say a game stream, that is not served or marketed by the store, to be given for free to its catalogues, in order for a digital business to be able to install its app on devices that it does not own, is considered a fair and reasonable demand.

This is an unruly territory powered stacked on top of device sales. Nothing more.
 
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The score is a tie where no one owes anything to the other in terms of value. Now developer should pay for the cloud service Apple provides to deploy and update apps securely as well pay for development support .
And they deploying these apps to run where again? Oh yeah, a piece of hardware engineered that somebody spent to develop, build, test, validate, certify, license, distribute, sell and support, so you as a software developer, don’t have to.

And which APIs are they using to deliver their apps again? Oh yeah, a piece of software someone spent to develop, distribute and maintain - including update and correct security bugs so you, as a developer, don’t have to.

If you look back our first mobile apps (those Java based on pre-Apple devices era; Nokia N95, Motorola Razr V3 and the likes of “high end mobile devices”), they were rustic as hell. Even the first mobile apps for the iPhone were rustic. Even the Sony collaboration with Apple phone was horrid - they made an ugly iTunes Java app and called “top notch”. The amount of competition forced everybody to make things look better, to improve, to add functionality, to be different, to be unique (or to be just another copy of a fart app because that’s what customers wanted).

I see why there is a lot of frustration from developers - more so the largest ones, because they want things to be bypassed so they generate even more cash - plus, Apple doesn’t need more cash, they are worth as much as an entire country! But Apple decided they aren’t like Microsoft or Sony and are not going to lose money on each and every gaming console they sell, only to make up on the games (apps) they sell/rent (now with new game passes model). Yet, the same Microsoft and Sony have their 30% cut on their stores to make up for their hardware losses, and everybody’s like “this is fine” (insert dog meme here).

Also, you guys still thinking “monopoly”? Nobody is forcing anyone to buy an Apple product. I was never forced to buy Apple “or else!”. I would be interested to find any report from a reputable news source other than The Onion that would clearly states “Customer forced at gun point to buy an Apple iOS device”. As I stated on my previous post, there are options. Including much more affordable phone options. Android, for one, is the last decent man standing in a mobile OS world, but not because - again - Apple told you or anyone else to buy their products. Microsoft failed to deliver a solid Windows Mobile, yet they are still the industry standard OS for PCs. Why aren’t they sued for monopoly? Oh yeah, they were. They lost, yet they won: because customers still choose Windows. Same goes for Apple.

And you can always “cheat”: place a subscription/sign up option on your website, take away any payments from the app, pronto: no 30% fee to Apple. Simple as that - an option even supported by Apple (as stated on early Epic vs Apple discussions).

The Android Play Store or the side loading of apps on Android devices exists, are very well documented and it is an option. Not so long ago, Samsung was selling more phones than Apple did. If that still means “Apple is a monopoly”, you might need to have whatever you are breathing analyzed.
 
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And they deploying these apps to run where again? Oh yeah, a piece of hardware engineered that somebody spent to develop, build, test, validate, certify, license, distribute, sell and support, so you as a software developer, don’t have to.

It’s deployed to run on the devices of their customers. It’s is assumed they bought the devices and licensed the OS for the digital services and apps of their choice to run. Now Apple can license the use of the SDKs to build apps. But the environment on which the app runs, the peoples devices, that is already payed for the purpose.

So that is clear correct? Because I got the impression that it were running on things that Apple owned.

On the note that somebody spends money to develop, build, test, test, validate, certify, license, distribute, sell and support so that someone else does not need to. It can also be applied to third party apps in relationship to Apple. Developers do that so that Apple does no have to. Correct? Furthermore, they don’t charge Apple for the it, Apple charges them.

The iOS market is not only developed by Apple. Case in case, if the App Store was left alone with Apple's apps and service,, the device would be little more than bricks, and in turn probably people would move out of iOS.

Why don't developers do that than as a whole to pressure Apple to change the policies?

1. Digital services, software houses in general, have no control over customers choices when it comes to devices. That control is shared between Apple and Google and enforced by the their App Store policies. Meaning a customer that you may be able to convert using your ideas, marketing efforts and product quality, (little todo with Apple or Google) use either of these devices. So the business needs to be on both otherwise it can loose customers. It’s the law of the market.

2. Secondly, it far easier for Apple not to agree with a dev and unilatefly ban it from the devices of 50% of the population than 95% of developers to leave the App Store. Its just harder to push one unit than thousands, or millions units into one direction.

3. Probably some would be sued by their customers, if not by Apple. If such thing was organized would probably be illegal. But not the other way around see?

So in the end, what happens is that this power relationship is not being balanced by the market.

Finally, you seam to be inclined to the following political position: Apple has built a device (hardware + OS) therefore if it sees fit it is entitled to a share on the revenue over anything that uses it as a component. Businesses and ideas that the company itself does not create, build, distribute or sell, just because it needs the component that the company needs to reach the devices chosen by 50% of the US population.

I find this a disturbing line of thought at many levels. Because it starts on the premisse that one should be payed for things it created which in my view is totally reasonable But than jumps on to the idea that it should should also be payed for things it does not create directly or indirectly if the first is not enough source of income. The later is quite doubtful as a practice, dodgy even, mafia uses that kind of line of thought. The only entity in a democratic society that can do that is the State for reasons that would require a lesson is the evolution on he organisation of democratic societies.

In other words, you have far more counter examples to that system of belief working extremely well than it working. Take an app, a house, a car, a brick, a chip, street, a power plant, .... you name it, are all devices invented, built, sold ... by someone. All interconnected that no device can escape. Call all this the original Operating System.

If after all Apple has done if you think the iPhone can run by itself, let alone be a successful device, think twice. There is still a lot of things left in the critical path for a device to run that Apple never built, neither has to pay for. Simple stuff as a Power Plant and then anything in between it and the moment you connect the iPhone to charge. The iPhone runs because everything in the middle is there already free to use by iPhones, Apple did not have to invent, build it.

If we applied your valuation as a basis for reasoning about anything would lead to a 30% shared revenue over all things in the critical path for the iPhone to exist like you seam to argue for apps, Apple would not have a business.

Also, you guys still thinking “monopoly”? Nobody is forcing anyone to buy an Apple product. I was never forced to buy Apple “or else!”. I would be interested to find any report from a reputable news source other than The Onion that would clearly states “Customer forced at gun point to buy an Apple iOS device”.

Well, I'mo not thinking monopolies, but in terms of FRAND, a framework that I believe that should be applied to all proprietary forms of licensing, not only IPs, exactly to block the kind of attempts to charge for things not produced, distributed or sold based on the fact that ones component is critical to ones business.

PS: As a side note the concept of monopoly is not defined based on someone having options or not.

Hopefully other justifications will come instead of juvenile god like notions over property. Has impressive as god might be.

In the law of the land there is a thing called servitude of passage. If you consider your customers as land, an abstraction, when you deploy an App that right is voided by the App Store policies. Now this concepts aren’t applied yet in the digital space world, it’s basically cowboy land. The lack of reasonability of tech companies, even between themselves may lead the adoption of certain regulations that ar used in more matured contexts, contexts with centuries of maturity.

Cheers.
 
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Finally, you seam to be inclined to the following political position: Apple has built a device (hardware + OS) therefore if it sees fit it is entitled to a share on the revenue over anything that uses it as a component. Businesses and ideas that the company itself does not create, build, distribute or sell, just because it needs the component that the company needs to reach the devices chosen by 50% of the US population.

I find this a disturbing line of thought at many levels. Because it starts on the premisse that one should be payed for things it created which in my view is totally reasonable But than jumps on to the idea that it should should also be payed for things it does not create directly or indirectly if the first is not enough source of income. The later is quite doubtful as a practice, dodgy even, mafia uses that kind of line of thought. The only entity in a democratic society that can do that is the State for reasons that would require a lesson is the evolution on he organisation of democratic societies.
That is called a store. Stores put a pproduct on a shelf and sell it for a profit; even if all they do is stock it. They can even do it on consignmnet, which is how Apple runs the app store. In some way's Apple model is better becasue tehy do not charge slotting fees, for example, and have cut out the middlemaan between tehm and developrs which means develpers keep 70% unlike under the old model where tehy wewre lucky to get distribution and if tehy did got 30% at best.

As to the argument tehre are other stores that sell the same products but non for iOS; there are other mobile phone platforms that offer many of the same apps as well. Just as no store offers an equivalent for every item as some may be an exclusive, the app store doesn't either. That does not make it any less of a store.
 
That is called a store.

Oh no. the store again. The fact is that it not Store. It is something that a marketeer called a Store

At a distance a donkey might look like a horse, someone might publicize it has a horse, but it’s still a donkey.

No store stacks the kind of policies App Store stacks. No Store calls its supplier threatening removal if they are selling their good cheaper elsewhere. There seams to be cases of that happening. Or arguing that the content of emails are promoting sales outside the Store, so either sell at the same price or leave. No store selling say an Xbox, than requires a shared revenue over whatever is sold through a device already sold.... zzzz boring.

The way the Apple Store policies are rendered points to the fact this cloud service governance is based after the model of a state tax system without the social obligations of a state system.

What it’s at stake is the right for digital services to deploy their service on their customers devices, 50% of the US population without being charged more than what they use and what their customer already payed to use. Period.

This is not at all clear with a payment system based on a percentage of revenue that the App or a Digital Service might generate. Say in the realm of video streaming, Netflix generated far more value than the App Store it self. Still if we look at the 30% tax, it seams that somewhat the App Store has a stake on that market. Yet it does nothing for it, not even would be a middle man if the App Store was not mandatory on devices that 50% of the US market use.
 
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[...]

What it’s at stake is the right for digital services to deploy their service on their customers devices, 50% of the US population without being charged more than what they use and what their customer already payed to use. Period.
[...]
What's at stake is for a business to run free from government interference as long as they are doing this legitimately and above board, and let the market decide the veracity of the business. That's the high stake game that is at stake. Period.
 
And you can always “cheat”: place a subscription/sign up option on your website, take away any payments from the app, pronto: no 30% fee to Apple. Simple as that - an option even supported by Apple (as stated on early Epic vs Apple discussions).

You cannot do that if you apply the letter of the policy. Now it might be the case, as it is reported, that the App Store sometimes turns a blind eye on certain aspects of the policy until it does not ... so I don’t know who is “cheating“. The ones that thinks its “cheating”, or the one who let the other think is “cheating” until one is fat enough to collect. The moral of the story is, don’t you ever think you are ”cheating” the App Store policy. Because whatever you do, someone knows and is letting you do it until it does not.
 
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.... a business to run free from government interference as long as they are doing this legitimately and above board, and let the market decide the veracity of the business ...

I agree with that as a principle. But its true that sometimes that the market is unable to self correct and it crashes. In such circumstances governments are called to ... basically to pay the bills ... pardon dept ... and inject money .... tax payers money so on and so forth … blackmailed with jobs loss or lack of growth. Regulation is not interference, is component of the market, it sets the rules so that the market can freely and realistically operate. Much like the App Store policies.

Check Elon Musk story. He started by building a successful digital services in a time were there was no App Store gags, selling it directly to customers ... now he is launching Rockets and sending probes to Mars. Something that Tim Cook would not be able to come up with, he does not fit the profile. His vision is stuck one with his predecessor in terms of tech, he is more interested in policy and governance around the products Apple makes today.

PS: By the way. The IP of his companies electrical engine / cars innovations are all open because he has a vision for the next generation, he is fearless. According to the market he would be out of business some time ago, but no. He reminds me of SJ that way.
 
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