E5645, W3680, W3565, E5-2643, E5-2690 and E5-2687W

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by hajime, Aug 3, 2012.

  1. hajime macrumors 68030

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    Jul 23, 2007
    #1
    Hello, I have to choose a workstation that I will be stuck with for the next five years (institute policy). Could anybody knowledgeable please compare these processors? I will be running windows on the workstation. For the HP-Z820, I cannot buy a system with one E5-2687W, I need to get two processors.

    E5645: 6-core on the MacPro
    W3680: 6-core, 3.3GHz on the MacPro
    W3565: 4-core, 3.2GHz on MacPro
    E5-2643: 4-core, 3.3GHz, 10MB cache BUT 3.5GHz under turbo boost!?
    E5-2690: 8-core, 2.9GHz, 20MB cache (somewhere I read that with turbo boost, it can run at 3.8GHz which is the same as the E5-2687W.)
    E5-2687w: 8-core, 3.1GHz, 20MB cache (3.8GHz at turbo boost)


    Thanks.
     
  2. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    Aug 5, 2010
    #2
    You just listed off a wide range of processors without saying a thing about your requirements. If you're running Windows, you can on occasion run into problems on a Mac. Some things just aren't supported. Either the bootcamp drivers aren't there or whatever random thing doesn't like the emulated bios. This isn't all that common. The E5s are a newer generation. The E5645 is a dual package version with the mac pro. It's used in a 12 core machine.
     
  3. hajime, Aug 3, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012

    hajime thread starter macrumors 68030

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    #3
    I have been running Windows on two MBP for several years. There has been no problem. Is the MacPro any difference? Is bootcamp not supporting xeon and the gpu well?

    I mainly use it for running computer simulations (mostly using Matlab/Simulink+toolboxes) and analysis of large data set. I also use it to run Autodesk Inventor 2013 and Solidworks. Occasionally, 3DsMax, Motion Builder. I plan to get 32GB-48GB RAM. Single core MacPro does not support RAM more than 32GB. So, if I go for the MacPro, I need to upgrade to dual 3.2GHZ system which will end up more expensive than the HP-Z820.

    Things that I can run on the Mac can be handled by my MBP 2010 with 8GB RAM.
     
  4. thekev, Aug 3, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012

    thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    Aug 5, 2010
    #4
    When I said random features aren't supported, I meant fairly obscure stuff, and it wouldn't be different between the Mac Pro and notebook line. The single package machines top out at 48 in a 16x3 configuration. It's not certified by Apple, but it has been tested. Overall the mac pro is running on slightly dated hardware. You pay a lot for what you get. The mac pro tops out at 2x 3.06. There aren't any 2 x 3.2 options. Given some of the applications you're using, a Quadro 4000 isn't a bad idea rather than some of the other gpu options. The 5870 is supposed to be pretty bad in maya under windows. i'm not sure about max/Inventor. The Quadro 4k is cheaper if you don't order it directly from Apple. With the HP, you have to order it with a workstation card. None of those are based on the latest chips yet. NVidia has yet to release a Kepler quadro as far as I know. They are well tested to run Windows though. The one complaint i've noted is with the power sources on some of the Z workstations. You could look at Dell too if you're price sensitive. Both of them have moved on to Sandy Bridge E. Apple is still shipping westmere.

    By the way, some of the cpu numbers in your original post make no sense given your requirements. W3565 and W3680 are single socket compliant only. You cannot use these in dual package configurations from any brand. E5645 is a budget model 12 core. The 3.06 12 core costs a lot more. Just using that cpu bumps the price to $6200 in the US prior to further configuration. It is quite expensive. The E5 cpus are the Sandy Bridge E architecture. They use a different chipset and socket type. They are not currently used in the mac pro.
     
  5. TacticalDesire macrumors 68020

    TacticalDesire

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    Michigan
    #5
    So, you have to pick two of the CPU's on the list? If that's the case, I'd go with either the 2643 or the 2690 depending on how heavily threaded your activities are.
     
  6. xav8tor macrumors 6502a

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    Mar 30, 2011
    #6
    If you really need dual CPU's, no current Mac model will out perform the 820. You just need to determine whether you need speed, cores, or both. If you have the money, nothing running Windows will beat a Z820 with the dual 2687W config, unless you custom build it.

    http://www.cpubenchmark.net/multi_cpu.html
     
  7. hajime thread starter macrumors 68030

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    Jul 23, 2007
    #7
    Could you please explain more?

    ----------


    I think Inventor and Solidworks do not take advantage of multi-core yet. Given that not all routines in Matlab/Simulink are optimized for multi-core, I think that speed is more important than cores.

    As for the video card, I probably won't ask for a Quadro 6000. It is way too expensive. How about the Quadro 5000? Is it a very quiet/silent card?
     
  8. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    Aug 5, 2010
    #8
    I don't have anything substantiated. I've just heard random complaints at times, but that can be said with any brand. Apple is not immune to this. HP's support is also supposed to be good.



    All of them take advantage of more than a single core. Some functions may be single threaded, but quad cores are as low as most people go in desktops these days. You referenced a 12 core mac pro in there, so I was just addressing models with higher core counts. The E5645 is used in the cheapest 12 core mac pro. The cpu choices in your post go all over the place. The Quadro 5000 is a very strong card, and Autodesk is very good about testing on Quadros. If you look it up on their site, you can see which ones are certified. If any have caveats in their testing, they list these as footnotes at the bottom of the page. Solidworks should have something similar. The Quadro 5000 isn't an officially supported mac pro option, but one of the guys on here has gotten them working in it.

    I haven't tested much of what you require personally, although I'm familiar with much of what is certified for some of these CAD solutions. You'd probably need some really heavy files to choke a Quadro 5000. The CAD programs probably benefit more from clock speed than core count overall, yet I'm not sure what to suggest with some of the others. Given the combination of applications, I'm guessing 3ds max is in there for lighting and possibly rendering. Rendering can put many cores to work. If you're locked in for 5 years on this, you just have to be careful. If a newer version of one of those applications chokes your system, run the older one if possible.
     
  9. xav8tor macrumors 6502a

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    Mar 30, 2011
    #9
    I'm in the same boat. One app I use a lot makes little use of cores but maxes out any GPU on Earth and you cannot feed it enough GPU clock speed until you hit a speed limit somewhere else on the board. There's nothing really fast for the 5.1 Mac except the W3690 (DIY) and Turbo on that one isn't very impressive. On a single core Windows machine, there are a few Sandy-E and Ivy chips that will run over 3.5 out of the box, turbo to 4 and OC to 5. For the latter, custom built is the only real option.
     
  10. voyagerd macrumors 65816

    voyagerd

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    #10
    Dual E5-2687W processors would be the fastest
     
  11. xav8tor macrumors 6502a

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    Mar 30, 2011
    #11
    Just found an HP whitepaper on this subject. Bottom line: if a 20% increase in performance per core over any Mac Pro offering matters to you, in a single CPU machine you'll have to go with an E5 SB chip. For dual CPU configs, the HP's will give you double the performance of a maxed out Mac Pro. Then there's the old bus limits, lack of more modern features etc, including "officially" supported GPU's.

    If I were starting out fresh, and I could wait until late 2013 based on a vague promise, and was absolutely addicted to Apple, I might wait to see what Cupertino comes up with. If you need something now, and make $$$ from it, there is no decision to be made IMHO: an HP Z and don't look back. I maxed out my 4.1 Mac Pro with all the upgrades I could find (only thing left is the CPU and with single threaded apps, that's won't help much either), and the benchmarks pale in comparison to the competition. Even OS X is partly the culprit on GPU related numbers. They're almost 50% higher in Win 7 than 10.8.
     
  12. hajime thread starter macrumors 68030

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    Jul 23, 2007
    #12
    Thanks for the advice. If the HP Z820 is very quiet/silent, I would go for it without hesitation. A maxed out MacPro is very expensive yet not as fast as the other workstations. I often run simulations 24-7.

    The E5-2687w seems to be the best choice. However, HP only sells it as a dual system. I will ask. If the institute buys for me, that is great. If not, what would be my second choice? Looks like the E5-2687w has the same Tubro Boost speed as the E5-2687w. How often is the Turbo Boost being activated? Under Windows, can we activate it all the time? If they do not get activated often, then the E5-2643 has a faster clock. Yet, the fact that the 2643 is a quad core system and lower turbo boost speed may be less desirable? How are these three cpu compared?

    In the past, I read that 3DsMax take advantages of multi-core. I visited Autodesk and Solidworks websites, there is no mention about Inventor and Solidworks using multi-core system. If they do in fact support multi-core systems, what is the number of cores that they could take advantage of?

    As for the GPU, is Quadro 5000 a better choice than the 4000 and 6000?
    I guess if it is not good enough, can I add one more Quadro 5000 later easily for SLI? (I am talking about the GPU for the HP workstation under Windows.)
     
  13. voyagerd macrumors 65816

    voyagerd

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    #13
    Turbo boost is activated based on CPU usage, temperature and power usage. In order to activate it all the time, I'm pretty sure you would have to disable power-saving options in BIOS. I do this on my dual Xeon desktop, however I am not concerned about temperature or power usage. I actually have turbo disabled and have overclocked manually. I don't have experience on how often turbo is in use with the SNB-E processors, though from what I heard, it's a big benefit. The E5-2643 has a faster clock since it's a quad core. If you are rendering, you want all the cores you can get.
    Does SolidWorks make use of multiple and/or dual core processors?: http://www.javelin-tech.com/main/support/solidworks_2012_hardware_faq.htm

    Inventor: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/dl/item?siteID=123112&id=12107410&linkID=9242018

    I'm not sure what you mean, they are all the same series. The 6000 is going to be the fastest. It's very similar to my GTX 480s.
     
  14. xav8tor macrumors 6502a

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    #14
    The Z620 is fairly silent, so the same probably goes for the 820. Whether Turbo kicks in is strictly a matter of how many cores the app is using. The more cores available, the greater chance you have of seeing the higher speed. Someone more knowledgeable than me can probably explain it better. A lot depends on how the app itself is written (threading, etc.).

    As for the GPU's, I don;t use Quadros. 10.8 supports the new Nvidia cards (e.g. 670/680) and my apps run better on them than they do the Quadro...a lot better, except for maybe rendering HD video. But with CUDA, and the fact that most of my clips are a few minutes long, it isn't an issue. The GTX 6XX smokes the official Apple available Quadros by a mile on my apps.

    It is a personal decision based on anticipated use, budget, the apps, and so on. If you decide on HP, call a pre-sales advisor. They are very helpful. Don't let them sell you any of the options other than the CPU and power supply (not sure if their slot is standard). Get min RAM, no GPU, and the smallest hard drive. You can get HP or other compatible name brand parts with good warranties and support elsewhere for almost half the price...or less.

    PS - Not sure if you can overclock HP Z's but there are a number of guys OCing custom builds with some Xeon chips. Even if you could, that would probably void the warranty. That is one way to control your clock speed though.
     
  15. hajime thread starter macrumors 68030

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    Jul 23, 2007
    #15
    On that site, it states that "In order to fully benefit from multi-core processors, you need to use multi-threaded software. Unfortunately, Inventor is currently a single-threaded application."

    How likely will Inventor support multi-threaded application in the near future?

    As Inventor is currently a single-threaded application but some options support multi-core, it is still beneficial to use a multi-core system (say 16-core of a dual cpu 2687w). I just don't get "full" benefit from the multi-core system. We don't know how much performance gain that is...
    That is the problem.

    ----------

    So, a dual E5-2687w system has a higher chance of getting turbo boost?
    Why the GTX 6xx smokes the Quadros. Is it due to the driver problem? I heard that the GTX is good for gaming but Quadro series is better for CAD.

    The problem is that I am in a country where they don't speak English.
    I contacted HP USA. They told me that there is no email address for the workstation support department. I have to call.
     
  16. xav8tor macrumors 6502a

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    Mar 30, 2011
    #16
    [QUOTE
    So, a dual E5-2687w system has a higher chance of getting turbo boost?
    Why the GTX 6xx smokes the Quadros. Is it due to the driver problem? I heard that the GTX is good for gaming but Quadro series is better for CAD.

    The problem is that I am in a country where they don't speak English.
    I contacted HP USA. They told me that there is no email address for the workstation support department. I have to call.[/QUOTE]

    This is an old article, and it is WIki (reader beware) but the basics are there:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Turbo_Boost

    Intel also has some info at:

    http://www.intel.com/content/www/us...ology/turbo-boost/turbo-boost-technology.html

    Turbo boost is going to depend in great part on the cores/threads in use at any point in time. At least that is how I understand it.

    As for the GTX performance superiority on my apps, I'm not sure exactly why that is true. Certain types of 3D simulation apps have tended to run better on consumer cards because they resemble 3D games in the way they make demands on the card. Either way, the Nvidia 6XX GTX support on OS X 10.8 is unofficial, but it's there and works beautifully. But, it works even better running under Windows.

    For your apps, the Quadro may well be the better choice by a large margin. For me, the opposite is true.

    For advice on HP Z models, and your applications, you'll probably find much more reliable advice on HP or your app related forums.
     
  17. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    #17
    In terms of raw speed, the current GTX cards are based on newer hardware. You can't directly order the HP with a gaming card anyway. With a mac pro, your only "official" NVidia option is the Quadro 4000. The 5870 isn't supposed to be very good under Windows with any of those applications, and you have mentioned you'll be using Windows.
     
  18. wallysb01 macrumors 65816

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    #18
    No, all the E5-2600s 8 cores have essentially the same turbo ratios (except for the ones ending in funny numbers, ie not 0), you just see clock rates change.

    Here are the turbo frequencies based on core usage from cpuworld:

    2687:
    Base Frequency: 3100 MHz
    Turbo frequencies: 3800 MHz (1 core), 3600 MHz (2 or 3 cores), 3500 MHz (4 or 5 cores), 3400 MHz (6 or more cores)

    2690:
    Base Frequency 2900 MHz
    Turbo frequencies: 3800 MHz (1 core), 3600 MHz (2 or 3 cores), 3400 MHz (4 or 5 cores), 3300 MHz (6 or more cores)

    So what you see is that the 2687 is just pushed a little higher with the high core count numbers, while the 2690 will down clock farther under light loads (the base frequency is lower), but then turbo to the same spot with only 1, 2 or 3 cores active.

    This is a very nice feature of the new Sandy Bridge Xeons, in general. With westmere it was much harder to find a nice balance between core count and clock speed, because turbo boosting was very conservative (maybe just .26 GHz max), now we see even the low end E5-2600s turbo .5 GHz for the 6 core options and .8 GHz for the 8 core options. So now, even if you're stuck in a single threaded app, your mid-budget Sandy Bridge DP workstation will have more similar performance as the higher clocked single processor Sandy's than what was true with westmere mid-budget DP vs SP workstations.
     
  19. hajime thread starter macrumors 68030

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    Jul 23, 2007
    #19
    2687w is nice but the problem is that HP only offers the Z820 in dual 2687 configuration. Moreover, HP only provides liquid cooling for DP systems.
    So, I have to choose either the dual 2687w system or the 2690 SP system. Since they are close, I guess if my boss allows, get the dual 2687w system with liquid cooling. Otherwise, just get the single 2690 system and hope that the system will not be noisy.
     
  20. wallysb01 macrumors 65816

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    #20
    There are other options than HP if you don't like the liquid cooled part (that just comes with the 2687W needing 150W, while the 2690 is "just" 135W).

    Here are a couple links: http://www.thinkmate.com/Computer_Systems/Workstations/Workstations/Series/HPX

    http://www.avadirect.com/workstation-pc-configurator.asp?PRID=23641

    Both vendors get pretty good reviews from what I can tell. Avadirect will also allow a single 2687W configuration. Honestly, though, the cost/performance going from the 1660 (6 core turbo to 3.9) to a single 2687W is probably not worth it. If you can't justify 12 or 16 cores based on your work flow, the difference between 6 and 8 cores is probably not that big of deal. So I'd look for vedors offering a SP 1660 system. If you only want 1 processor and <64 GB of RAM why not a Z420 from HP?

    What kind of budget is your boss putting you on? If you have the money, by all means get both the clock speed and the cores with DP 2690/87W system, as it sounds like many of your apps will use all those cores.
     
  21. hajime thread starter macrumors 68030

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    Jul 23, 2007
    #21

    Thanks for the suggestions but I am in a country where most people don't speak English. I have very limited choice. Either Apple, HP or Dell. Dell and Apple do not have 2687w SP unit water cooling.
     

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