Early Apple Pay Reception Tepid Outside of United States

[UKMrMacMan]

With 100 dollar tap limit imposed on credit card and debit card, at least in Canada, Apple Pay doesn't work with large purchase. You still need carry your wallet.

TouchID on iPhone SE is not really reliable and it can take 2 tries before it work.

The only time I found Apple Pay is convenient is where I forgot my wallet, but the bad part is when I do forgot my wallet, I am driving without driver's license.

So if you need carry your wallet all the time, why even bother to use Apple Pay?

Here in the UK the limit seems to be typically £30 which makes it useless for most purchases, as a tank of fuel for example is about £60. It maybe alright if you drink coffee all day or eat burgers but a meal for two, forget Apple Pay and get your real wallet out.

 

[Type4O]

Ever since yesterday I've been using Apple Pay wherever there's a contactless payment thing. Which is basically everywhere in Canada lol.

I just used it at my chiropractor. I just said "Can I try?" and he said, "Sure, go ahead". Voila. I'll be trying it anywhere I can.

 

[haydn!]

The barriers you cite are not really that time consuming. Try pushing thru them, you might be glad you did.

Not time consuming? It took nearly three weeks to activate a bank card! Why should I experience that when I already have a perfectly usable contactless bank card in my pocket?

 

[RedOrchestra]

doesn't really elevate discourse or add much to the conversation.

Actually I've noticed that you really have no interest in either discourse or conversation you mostly just like the sound of your own voice, no?

 

[iGeek2014]

I'm not sure about all shops, but you can definitely spend more than 30 in Marks and Sparks and Boots with Apple Pay

Have Boots finally caught up then? When I last spent over £30 in there (back in March) contactless payments were greyed out on the self service machines.

I know M&S have led the way in high value payments for Apple Pay.

In terms of transactions taking time to appear on my statements with Santander (and Lloyds Bank) I can view pending payments with Apple Pay. When I log into my Santander account tomorrow I know the transaction I made at Morrison's last night will be shown as completed.

 

[Type4O]

With 100 dollar tap limit imposed on credit card and debit card, at least in Canada, Apple Pay doesn't work with large purchase. You still need carry your wallet.

From what I've read, and based on not being able to find mention of on the banks website, the limit is the same as whatever it normally is on your credit/debit card. Scotia says, in their T&C, that the bank may, from time to time, choose to impose limits, but I couldn't find anything about any limits right now. Same for my AMEX issued by AMEX bank. I could be wrong, and will certainly be testing it when I need to buy something over $100.

 

[Wickedkitten]

Have Boots finally caught up then? When I last spent over £30 in there (back in March) contactless payments were greyed out on the self service machines.

I know M&S have led the way in high value payments for Apple Pay.

In terms of transactions taking time to appear on my statements with Santander (and Lloyds Bank) I can view pending payments with Apple Pay. When I log into my Santander account tomorrow I know the transaction I made at Morrison's last night will be shown as completed.

I live in SW England any my local boots have been able to go over £30 since at least December I want to say. I'm with Halifax and both my debit card, and Amex give a notification almost instantly

 

[kdarling]

There may be a problem what is counted as "using Apple Pay". Most of the time you use a payment terminal that doesn't know about Apple Pay, but accepts your phone just as it accepts a contactless debit or credit card. It might be that this isn't counted as "Apple Pay".

The numbers probably came from counting token account range hits, or polling insiders at credit card companies.

That's because, to the terminals, there's no such thing as "Apple Pay" or "Android Pay".

Terminals don't know or care what kind of device or card talked to them. To them, it's just a standard contactless transaction.

(Apple has nothing to do with the actual transaction with a terminal beyond saying the user okays it. The credit card entities (MC / Visa / AMEX / Discover) do all the actual NFC transaction design and code. Each has their own secret cryptogram data method that fits within an overall standard communication framework. It's only branded "Apple Pay" on the iPhone because Apple wants their own name in the public eye instead of each credit card name. It's kind of like how stores often rebrand items they didn't make, with their own name and box.)

No charge to the merchant or you for using Apple Pay. If the bank has signed up to Apple Pay, they have agreed to pay Apple 0.0015% of their income on the transaction as a fee (really it is cheap insurance to eliminate fraud risk) but the charge is not passed on to you.

Right, the bank pays. But it's 0.15%. Which is 0.0015 times the amount.

As for being cheap insurance... fraud rates in chip & PIN countries run at like 0.007%... twenty times less that what Apple wanted. Even in the US card present fraud rates run at 0.06%, or less than half of what Apple gets.

It's a myth that banks are paying for fraud help. They don't need it. What they're paying Apple for, is access to Apple's NFC users.

That's only for credit btw. For debit card purchases, Apple wants a flat $0.005 per transaction, which is almost as much as Canada's Interac gets themselves. Impossible for them.

That's because chip readers in the US are notoriously slow. Canada and other countries have fast chips. I read that it could be due to our debit card system requiring multiple applications on the chip. That being said Walgreens and Walmart have fast chip readers. CVS is ungodly slow.

All phones have multiple payment applications. At least one each for every credit card scheme.

I think the problem is partly chip & signature is so different from swipe & signature, where you can use your card and put it instantly away, then sign. With chip & PIN, it doesn't seem odd to leave the card in a slot while entering the PIN. But with chip & signature, we had to leave the card in and wait, then sign, and only then remove the card. Made no sense to people and seems longer.

Now they're updating the terminals to take the card info and hold it even after you pull out the card, and let you sign later. Even CVS in my area is now fast (and has a much NICER chime sound at the end, too!)

 

[JackANSI]

I finally gave up trying Apple Pay before other methods at all places in mid May... I just didn't feel like taking the extra time anymore to be rejected and then going back to a card or cash anyway.

I think the retailers are at fault because they don't want to give up the consumer data. I place the blame entirely at the store's feet. At places that are known for good Apple Pay support, I've never once had anything but a quick transaction.

So I've kinda stopped using big brick and mortar (and local/small businesses that don't have AP) for anything but "try before I buy at Amazon for less". If I'm going to be tracked, it might as well be at the lowest price for me.

 

[LovingTeddy]

Using touch-ID is faster than keying in a 6-digit passcode for my debit card. Plus, it's cool, I like that it keeps a log of my purchases, and between an Apple solution and another option, I will usually prefer the Apple solution so long as it is comparable in terms of ease of use and / or utility.

Most debit card in Canada are contactless and most credit card in Canada are contactless.

You can view your purchase on online banking, so what is the big deal with log your purchase?

I literally find Apple Pay is not any easier to use than contactless cc or debit card.

If I have to carry my wallet all the time, since not everywhere accept Apple Pay and I need drivers license. What is the difference between take out my phone and take out my wallet?

 

[Robert.Walter]

smart rider here in Australia...

unless u have American Xpress that is, u can use Apple Pay.... (American multinational financial services) so it's no wonder why they got it first.

Slow roll outs..... I can run faster than that

Put away the conspiracy theories: AMEX got it first because the banks refused to play ball.
[doublepost=1464899694][/doublepost]P

The actual risk is negligible.
Source: http://www.techradar.com/news/phone...-contactless-card-through-your-pocket-1315231

I'll see and raise you:

KrebsOnSecurity.com
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Actually I've noticed that you really have no interest in either discourse or conversation you mostly just like the sound of your own voice, no?

Thank you for more unproductive input. I think I have been replying to good faith questions in a similar manner. Then there are folks like you and I have to shift gears to "laugh at the clown".

 

[ZCT]

I think the sad reality is that America is in the dark ages when it comes to payments.

The UK had chip and PIN cards around 12 years ago. Contactless for over a decade. Cheques were being phased out in favor of debit cards, years and years ago.

Here in America we are just getting used to chip and signature, many places can't process it, contactless is not in wide use. So Apple Pay is a big advancement for a country where a bit of VHS tape glued to a plastic card is still commonplace.

It's like the metric system, everyone but us has it, we're still playing with a measuring system that even the inventors have long since abandoned.

 

[Robert.Walter]

Not time consuming? It took nearly three weeks to activate a bank card! Why should I experience that when I already have a perfectly usable contactless bank card in my pocket?

Hard to believe there could be such an incompetent bank or process. I've been witness to activating Apple Pay on a bit more than a half dozen credit cards from different institutions across the A/M/V spectrum in 3 countries. The process all worked the same:
1. Enter card info in iPhone:
2. Be told to call toll free number at card issuer:
3. Call number
4. Verify person and card
5. Rejoice to the singing of angels in heaven.

Aside from point 5, all takes about 10-15 min. If you have an Apple Watch, go to watch App on phone, open it, answer in the affirmative a couple times and it's ready (previously required a separate call to bank, but was revised for simplicity.)
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I think the sad reality is that America is in the dark ages when it comes to payments.

The UK had chip and PIN cards around 12 years ago. Contactless for over a decade. Cheques were being phased out in favor of debit cards, years and years ago.

Here in America we are just getting used to chip and signature, many places can't process it, contactless is not in wide use. So Apple Pay is a big advancement for a country where a bit of VHS tape glued to a plastic card is still commonplace.

It's like the metric system, everyone but us has it, we're still playing with a measuring system that even the inventors have long since abandoned.

You are right on both accounts.

But as a yank living 20 years in Europe, I can tell you I love using Apple Pay here. It's kind of strange being the only one (as locals can't activate unless they have a USA based credit card), the guy at the local restaurant jokingly calls me "Futuremensch" (i.e. Man from the future), LoL.

 

[McScooby]

Yet more FUD being chucked about by an anal ist I see! Pay is a juggernaut at best, hell did it not just take twitter there to do an update for 3D touch on the phone & how long's that been about for?

In reply to everyone saying fingerprint issues at till etc, u could say you're holding it wrong, just b4 it's your turn at cashier double tap home button with your finger/thumbnail, so to open wallet & not phone, select card, pre-authorise / validate card with print (it hangs about for 60secs or so) & then just touch reader, simples.

What do i know? I don't know anything only used it once on the phone, it was flawless, use it all the time on the watch tho & it's the dogs, same script about double tapping before my turn & as for one of the pre comments about it being a bug by bringing up your contacts instead, simples double tap again, no need to return to clock face, this ain't rocket science.

As for:

It took my bank (TSB) about a year to adopt Apple Pay. Registering cards with them was also a nightmare... had to register for telephone banking first, wait for a letter with a confirmation code, then scan my card and call them again to verify. This lengthy process really put me off registering more than one card and I've not bothered with any on my iPad as a result.

A year? When did Pay launch? 14/7/15, TSB was available mid Nov '15. Don't get me wrong, I was with you waiting, it seemed like an eternity when it seemed everyone else & their dog was using it, but you're past the hardest hurdle of getting the phone registered. All you have to do is add card to wallet on iPad, they know who you are as you've registered the phone with them so when prompted request a txt to be sent to your registered number, simples, bonus also is TSB gives you 5% cashback against contactless on both debit & credit cards unto dec'16 upto 1st £100, so £10/mth, better in my pocket!

My biggest gripe is the £30 limit otherwise I'd be using it the whole time as opposed to 3/4. As with everything, give it time, limits will be raised & sure there's contactless cards, but with pay, the whole point is u don't have to carry them. I was over in Germany last wk & used it everywhere even tho it's not there yet, only issue I had was with a 90yr old damen cashier at a service station when buying beer, my deutsch ain't great but conversation was a bit of nein, nein, nein, when I pointed to the terminal followed by a oh Ja, danke & the look on her face was priceless! Give it 3 or 4 years, then we'll talk.

 

[Sonmi451]

So you do have to carry all those cards. And you do have to sometimes show ID. And you do have to sign sometimes.

My credit card is accepted everywhere, has contactless payment and the battery never runs out.

On this basis, I think it's Apple pay that sucks.

I don't have to carry an ID or wallet with me a lot of the time. WF is talking distance to my home. You still have to carry your credit card, hope for a retailer to accept your contactless payment, and hope you don't lose it. I don't have to worry about that. Your credit card sucks dude.

 

[Brows]

The Canadian part of this report is extremely skewed as 3 of the 5 major banks signed on around 2 weeks ago ... And the others (and arguably the most popular) signed on THIS MORNING.

I agree how is it struggling from yesterday??? Or you can spin it this way. I've only made 1 purchase since it came out and it was with Apple Pay. So 100% of my purchases are with Apple Pay so far

 

[scottish]

It doesn't matter regarding retailers as anywhere contactless is accepted you can use Apple Pay which in London is virtually everywhere but in France for example, virtually nowhere in my experience so when Apple Pay does launch there, it'll be a pretty niche payment system.

I'm experiencing the opposite in France at the moment though the limit here appears to be quite low.

 

[Peepo]

Some terminals have a very weak NFC field but once you become accustomed to the local sweet spot it is hardly painful.

Try moving your watch around the terminal a bit to find the antennae.

Re "weird angle", just remember, the first folks that wore spectacles looked a bit odd too but now not only nobody gives it a second thought, but glasses are fashion items.

It is not the fact I cannot find the spot, The reader beeps and senses it but always fails as in some unsupported type and asks me to swipe the card instead. Trying immediately after on my iPhone always works. I never have it fail on my iPhone (unless the store does not support for some reason otherwise) where my Apple Watch is inconsistent.

 

[Keirasplace]

I tried Apple Pay once in Singapore at the #1 supermarket chain by far: FairPrice. I won't be trying it again any time soon.

FairPrice is part of the big LinkPoints loyalty card program, and one of the major banks (OCBC) issues "Plus" credit and debit cards, the only payment cards within the LinkPoints program. (There's also a standalone LinkPoints card, but that's not popular.) These cards are already contactless, but "dual" and even "tri" contactless cards are quite common in Singapore. The Plus cards are contactless for both LinkPoints and Visa. Many other cards are contactless for EZ-Link or NETS plus a major card network like Visa or MasterCard. POSB even has a card that's triple contactless for the PAssion points program, EZ-Link, and MasterCard.

With that background, here's how Apple Pay "works." You register your already contactless OCBC card with Apple Pay. So far, so good. Then you go shop at FairPrice and head to the register to check out. Before payment you try to give FairPrice your LinkPoints number using Apple Pay. That doesn't work. You have to pull out your OCBC Plus card and, via contactless exchange, FairPrice gets your LinkPoints number. So then can you pay via Apple Pay? Well, yes, you can. But why on earth would you do that? You just pulled out your contactless OCBC Plus card for the LinkPoints, so just tap it again on the same contactless terminal to pay. Apple Pay just slows you (and those behind you) down, a lot.

It's not just FairPrice. Did Apple even step into a supermarket or pharmacy in Singapore to see how this stuff works before trying to roll out Apple Pay in this country? I wonder. Singapore is chock full of double and triple contactless cards that combine loyalty programs, stored value networks, and credit/debit payment networks. Apple Pay doesn't seem to support any more than the contactless credit/debit payment networks (Visa, MasterCard, American Express). For example, at Guardian (pharmacy), Cold Storage (high end supermarket), and Giant (mid-market supermarket) -- all part of the same conglomerate -- the loyalty program is the PAssion card. So if you use your POSB PAssion debit card, you can collect your points and pay with two contactless taps of the same card. Why use Apple Pay for the second tap? Of course you wouldn't. It doesn't make any sense.

So, your blaming Apple from not support the store fidelity card?
Supporting all those countless loyalty cards will be a bitch, and Apple is working on that, but most of the issue here is the stores and not Apple.
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In Canada, all credit cards have a chip and it's easy to pay quickly by just entering your pin or using the wifi direct payment capabilities built into all Canadian credit cards. ApplePay brings nothing better (it's actually more complicated using ApplePay than using credit cards with a chip). That's why there is little interest here. ApplePay will be used, but it's not really a big deal. The US is really behind regarding credit cards technology. That explains why ApplePay seems such a step forward. But it isn't really.

There is a diff, the store doesn't have your real card info and it is anonymous and you can't lose your card since its only your card info in your phone.

 

[SteveW928]

Anybody paying today with a debit card is doing it wrong (due to security issues). POS terminals have been proven insecure .... Even if you don't go for ApplePay, do yourself and get a credit card. If you pay the balance each month you are much safer and get loyalty kickbacks rewards as well.

You mean like pretty much all of Canada? And, some people don't like credit cards, though I have no issue with them (as you say, if they are paid off each month).

 

[iGeek2014]

You mean like pretty much all of Canada? And, some people don't like credit cards, though I have no issue with them (as you say, if they are paid off each month).

Here in the UK Section 75 applies to credit card transactions from £100 to £30,000 (e.g. You buy an iPad and it goes wrong but not if you bought several items totalling £599 for example).

However (and I'd assume it's the case worldwide) Visa and MasterCard also offer chargebacks on debit cards here in the UK.

I can also earn rewards with Lloyds Bank on my Visa Debit card so you don't necessarily need a credit card (and because of a EU ruling a lot of banks have cut rewards on credit cards due to the interchange fee being capped).

 

[LordVic]

The Canadian part of this report is extremely skewed as 3 of the 5 major banks signed on around 2 weeks ago ... And the others (and arguably the most popular) signed on THIS MORNING.

its not Skewed, as in Canadians haven't used it cause it's not available.

It'll e interesting to see how well it works. We're in a great position that MOST retailers switched to NFC payments years ago. The question will be, are we willing to take the steps of adding our existing NFC compatible cards to Apple pay, or are we just more convenienced by pulling out the credit card and tapping.

 

[person s]

I've tried to use Apple Pay twice.
First time was just after it was announced for Aistralia, second time was today.
Unsuccessful both times.
Today I couldn't get it to stop defaulting back to my old Amex card.
I finally went to Wallet and deleted that one but it still declined my new card.
So I just processed a credit card payment in the usual way.
If the process isn't made simpler, people won't use it.

 

[djbuddha]

Canadian here, have apple pay since yesterday... Have been eating unhealthy while trying it out at Tim Horton's and McDonald's... My arteries can't wait for the novelty to wear off...

How isn't this the top comment?

 

[fischersd]

its not Skewed, as in Canadians haven't used it cause it's not available.

It'll e interesting to see how well it works. We're in a great position that MOST retailers switched to NFC payments years ago. The question will be, are we willing to take the steps of adding our existing NFC compatible cards to Apple pay, or are we just more convenienced by pulling out the credit card and tapping.

Umm...that's what djbuddha was saying - it hasn't been available in Canada (other than Amex) until recently.

I have RBC and CIBC for banks - was quick to add both of their cards. RBC even sent me a letter thanking me for enrolling as they feel it's considerably more secure.

As to people complaining about the spending limits. Complain to the vendors/merchants. It's THEM that's imposing that limit, not the banks. @ Esso, you can spend up to $200 on gas and merchandise, most others it's $100. We need to complain to the retailers to bump up their limits.

btw...it's a lot more convenient to pay with an Apple Watch than pulling out your phone.

I hope some of the governments around the world are successful in digitizing our ID's so we can finally get rid of our wallets. Ditto for all of those loyalty/rewards cards.