Ebay/Paypal nightmare

[needfx]

I have been an ebay seller for about 3 years, and I have come across an issue with a buyer.

Buyer purchased from me a set of pitcher & basin ceramics, antiques.

Despite my best efforts in packing this, and I have packed and shipped several other ceramics, far more fragile than this set, the basin arrived in pieces. These were both packaged together, in a large cardboard box.

The buyer sent me initially a message about this along with some photos. As this was a first for me, I had to ask my post office this end what happens and what should be done. Evidently, Greek postal office raised its hands in apathy and diverted the issue towards USPS and the receiver of the parcel, claiming that if there was suspicion of damage, box should not have been opened and returned immediately or opened in the presence of USPS staff to verify the damage and file a claim there. The buyer had opened the parcel in her home. Once I mentioned what my postal services advised, she claimed an 8,5 month pregnancy and opened a paypal ticket for refund without, presumably, even making an effort to contact USPS to attempt to file a claim, with reason that iotem was not as described (...) and noting that the box was banged up.

On a side note, antiques (& private sales for that matter) cannot be insured since the value of the item cannot be established/verified. It is a private sale.

Now, my question to all is this.

Why is the seller the sole responsible party for the damage? Why does ebay & paypal not protect the seller too for these matters and require the buyer to make other steps first with the party that destroyed the item, in this case the postal services? Even more cynically, whose to tell that in her pregnancy, did she not drop the huge box and break the item described?

It should also be noted that I take great care of fragile items, and always have "fragile" tape and stickers plastered across the boxes, but evidently, that does not guarantee safe delivery, nor can I be solely responsible for the full amount in case of damage during transport. That is nuts.

Evidently, I will consider not to sell any large fragile items anymore for intercontinental sales, as the risks are high, and ebay/paypal make sure the buyer is always covered and leave the seller in the sticks. I have had a fraud case through selling on Etsy/Paypal, and despite that not being my fault either, Paypal's initial ruling was to credit the victim and debit me. When appealing the case, the amount was returned to me, but it is evidence of the buyer friendly policy without any kind of consideration to the seller and how he gets effed in the a. Even more evidence to that, is that the available options in the paypal claim, is either refund the buyer with return, refund the buyer with no return, some other option I do not recall right now, and respond to the claim, which I did.

I am getting really frustrated by this as I am selling my family stuff to survive, I do not own a shop and selling my stock over ebay, which again, it is irrational for only the seller to be responsible for damages crated by third parties, in this case, (probably) postal services. A mechanism for claims towards postal services should be instituted. I will be evidently try to file a claim this end as well, but I am guessing I am screwed on all fronts.

Any thoughts, comments?

Cheers,
Patrick

 

[flyinmac]

I have been an ebay seller for about 3 years, and I have come across an issue with a buyer.

Buyer purchased from me a set of pitcher & basin ceramics, antiques.

Despite my best efforts in packing this, and I have packed and shipped several other ceramics, far more fragile than this set, the basin arrived in pieces. These were both packaged together, in a large cardboard box.

The buyer sent me initially a message about this along with some photos. As this was a first for me, I had to ask my post office this end what happens and what should be done. Evidently, Greek postal office raised its hands in apathy and diverted the issue towards USPS and the receiver of the parcel, claiming that if there was suspicion of damage, box should not have been opened and returned immediately or opened in the presence of USPS staff to verify the damage and file a claim there. The buyer had opened the parcel in her home. Once I mentioned what my postal services advised, she claimed an 8,5 month pregnancy and opened a paypal ticket for refund without, presumably, even making an effort to contact USPS to attempt to file a claim, with reason that iotem was not as described (...) and noting that the box was banged up.

On a side note, antiques (& private sales for that matter) cannot be insured since the value of the item cannot be established/verified. It is a private sale.

Now, my question to all is this.

Why is the seller the sole responsible party for the damage? Why does ebay & paypal not protect the seller too for these matters and require the buyer to make other steps first with the party that destroyed the item, in this case the postal services? Even more cynically, whose to tell that in her pregnancy, did she not drop the huge box and break the item described?

It should also be noted that I take great care of fragile items, and always have "fragile" tape and stickers plastered across the boxes, but evidently, that does not guarantee safe delivery, nor can I be solely responsible for the full amount in case of damage during transport. That is nuts.

Evidently, I will consider not to sell any large fragile items anymore for intercontinental sales, as the risks are high, and ebay/paypal make sure the buyer is always covered and leave the seller in the sticks. I have had a fraud case through selling on Etsy/Paypal, and despite that not being my fault either, Paypal's initial ruling was to credit the victim and debit me. When appealing the case, the amount was returned to me, but it is evidence of the buyer friendly policy without any kind of consideration to the seller and how he gets effed in the a. Even more evidence to that, is that the available options in the paypal claim, is either refund the buyer with return, refund the buyer with no return, some other option I do not recall right now, and respond to the claim, which I did.

I am getting really frustrated by this as I am selling my family stuff to survive, I do not own a shop and selling my stock over ebay, which again, it is irrational for only the seller to be responsible for damages crated by third parties, in this case, (probably) postal services. A mechanism for claims towards postal services should be instituted. I will be evidently try to file a claim this end as well, but I am guessing I am screwed on all fronts.

Any thoughts, comments?

Cheers,
Patrick

You would need a receipt from a retailer or an appraisal of the item to establish value to file a claim.

The only way out in the future is to only sell locally for cash.

Anytime you ship something you sell, you will assume liability for a refund.

 

[needfx]

You would need a receipt from a retailer or an appraisal of the item to establish value to file a claim.

The only way out in the future is to only sell locally for cash.

Anytime you ship something you sell, you will assume liability for a refund.

I understand that this is the current way things are handled in terms of seller liability, but this liability is irrational and one sided.

 

[flyinmac]

I understand that this is the current way things are handled in terms of seller liability, but this liability is irrational and one sided.

The only seller protection that exists is a disclaimer of “as-is, no warranty”.

But the buyer still has the right to expect to receive it in the condition it was advertised.

And the seller assumes 100% liability until the item is placed in the buyers hands. The shipping company is employed by you, not the buyer.

 

[needfx]

The only seller protection that exists is a disclaimer of “as-is, no warranty”.

But the buyer still has the right to expect to receive it in the condition it was advertised.

And the seller assumes 100% liability until the item is placed in the buyers hands. The shipping company is employed by you, not the buyer.

Again, why is the buyer's declaration taken at face value? Whose to say the buyer did not drop it while taking it in the house? Why did the buyer open the package? Most probably, by looking at the damage in the photos, the sound it would make would be more than evident of this.

Also, there are two postal services "employed". Greek postal services this end, USPS when they reach the Unites States in this case. Whose door do I knock? On which geographic location was the damage done? Again, why should the seller be the sole responsible party for such issues. This isn't a case where I sent a faulty electronic, or something other than described. It got damaged along the way.

 

[flyinmac]

Again, why is the buyer's declaration taken at face value? Whose to say the buyer did not drop it while taking it in the house? Why did the buyer open the package? Most probably, by looking at the damage in the photos, the sound it would make would be more than evident of this.

Also, there are two postal services "employed". Greek postal services this end, USPS when they reach the Unites States in this case. Whose door do I knock? On which geographic location was the damage done? Again, why should the seller be the sole responsible party for such issues. This isn't a case where I sent a faulty electronic, or something other than described. It got damaged along the way.

Laws will always protect the consumer. It’s to prevent scams.

Both shipping services work for you in this case. Legally, it is up to you to investigate and determine which of your employees damaged the product.

It sucks being a seller. But imagine a world without that protection. You’d lose out daily on everything you purchased.

In the end, your only legal recourse is to investigate on your own. Then pursue a claim with the shipper that you determine to be at fault.

If you want to claim the buyer broke it, then legally you’ll have to prove it in court.

I know it isn’t good for your end. But at this point, every option you have will only increase your losses.

Unless you sold this thing for thousands of dollars, you’re best to just accept the loss. Anything else will cost you more money.

 

[needfx]

Laws will always protect the consumer. It’s to prevent scams.

Both shipping services work for you in this case. Legally, it is up to you to investigate and determine which of your employees damaged the product.

It sucks being a seller. But imagine a world without that protection. You’d lose out daily on everything you purchased.

In the end, your only legal recourse is to investigate on your own. Then pursue a claim with the shipper that you determine to be at fault.

If you want to claim the buyer broke it, then legally you’ll have to prove it in court.

I know it isn’t good for your end. But at this point, every option you have will only increase your losses.

Unless you sold this thing for thousands of dollars, you’re best to just accept the loss. Anything else will cost you more money.

thanks for your continued input, and I know that responding to you with my counter arguments, is futile, but the buyer in this case is not a consumer, it is a private sale between two parties. Investigating is the only thing I can do right now and will do evidently. At usd370 (incl shpg), while it may not be thousands of dollars, it is an amount I do not want to take on just because the receiving party denied moving a finger claiming pregnancy or by claiming the item was destroyed by postal services.
[doublepost=1529704272][/doublepost]on USPS site, claims can only be filed by US shippers, so that is a closed door.

 

[ActionableMango]

I'm both a seller and a buyer.

As a buyer I received a broken monitor via UPS. I had paid extra for insurance and so I actually tried to get an insurance claim from UPS, but they said that they are contracted with the company that shipped the item (the seller), not with me. My restitution comes from the seller, and the seller's restitution comes from the carrier.

This seems reasonable to me. The seller is the logical party to get restitution from the carrier...the seller enters a business arrangement with the carrier. The seller is who has contracted for insurance. The seller is paying the carrier. The seller has the carrier's receipt. The seller declared the item and value on the paperwork. The seller packaged the item.

The buyer doesn't have the insurance contract, doesn't have the shipping receipt, isn't the person who agreed to any terms with the carrier, didn't pack it, etc. I don't really see her making an insurance claim at the Greek Post Office for an arrangement made between you and the USPS. The only agreement she's part of are Ebay/Paypal terms, so it is natural for her to go to that entity.

 

[needfx]

I'm both a seller and a buyer.

As a buyer I received a broken monitor via UPS. I had paid extra for insurance and so I actually tried to get an insurance claim from UPS, but they said that they are contracted with the company that shipped the item (the seller), not with me. My restitution comes from the seller, and the seller's restitution comes from the carrier.

This seems reasonable to me. The seller is the logical party to get restitution from the carrier...the seller enters a business arrangement with the carrier. The seller is who has contracted for insurance. The seller is paying the carrier. The seller has the carrier's receipt. The seller declared the item and value on the paperwork. The seller packaged the item.

The buyer doesn't have the insurance contract, doesn't have the shipping receipt, isn't the person who agreed to any terms with the carrier, didn't pack it, etc. I don't really see her making an insurance claim at the Greek Post Office for an arrangement made between you and the USPS. The only agreement she's part of are Ebay/Paypal terms, so it is natural for her to go to that entity.

makes perfect sense, but the seller is again in the sticks for cases like mine

private sale
not insured for being an antique with no establishable value
and two carriers involved

 

[Huntn]

I have been an ebay seller for about 3 years, and I have come across an issue with a buyer.

Buyer purchased from me a set of pitcher & basin ceramics, antiques.

Despite my best efforts in packing this, and I have packed and shipped several other ceramics, far more fragile than this set, the basin arrived in pieces. These were both packaged together, in a large cardboard box.

The buyer sent me initially a message about this along with some photos. As this was a first for me, I had to ask my post office this end what happens and what should be done. Evidently, Greek postal office raised its hands in apathy and diverted the issue towards USPS and the receiver of the parcel, claiming that if there was suspicion of damage, box should not have been opened and returned immediately or opened in the presence of USPS staff to verify the damage and file a claim there. The buyer had opened the parcel in her home. Once I mentioned what my postal services advised, she claimed an 8,5 month pregnancy and opened a paypal ticket for refund without, presumably, even making an effort to contact USPS to attempt to file a claim, with reason that iotem was not as described (...) and noting that the box was banged up.

On a side note, antiques (& private sales for that matter) cannot be insured since the value of the item cannot be established/verified. It is a private sale.

Now, my question to all is this.

Why is the seller the sole responsible party for the damage? Why does ebay & paypal not protect the seller too for these matters and require the buyer to make other steps first with the party that destroyed the item, in this case the postal services? Even more cynically, whose to tell that in her pregnancy, did she not drop the huge box and break the item described?

It should also be noted that I take great care of fragile items, and always have "fragile" tape and stickers plastered across the boxes, but evidently, that does not guarantee safe delivery, nor can I be solely responsible for the full amount in case of damage during transport. That is nuts.

Evidently, I will consider not to sell any large fragile items anymore for intercontinental sales, as the risks are high, and ebay/paypal make sure the buyer is always covered and leave the seller in the sticks. I have had a fraud case through selling on Etsy/Paypal, and despite that not being my fault either, Paypal's initial ruling was to credit the victim and debit me. When appealing the case, the amount was returned to me, but it is evidence of the buyer friendly policy without any kind of consideration to the seller and how he gets effed in the a. Even more evidence to that, is that the available options in the paypal claim, is either refund the buyer with return, refund the buyer with no return, some other option I do not recall right now, and respond to the claim, which I did.

I am getting really frustrated by this as I am selling my family stuff to survive, I do not own a shop and selling my stock over ebay, which again, it is irrational for only the seller to be responsible for damages crated by third parties, in this case, (probably) postal services. A mechanism for claims towards postal services should be instituted. I will be evidently try to file a claim this end as well, but I am guessing I am screwed on all fronts.

Any thoughts, comments?

Cheers,
Patrick

I basically stopped selling on eBay because of ebay’s Policy that favors buyers over a decade ago. If mailed through USPS you declare a value, sometimes based on a sell price and if it is broken, I’d assume maybe incorrectly that if it is lost or broken, they would refund the insurance amount. No? Otherwise why buy insurance? I acknowledge that once the item leaves the country, the USPS is off the hook? This would be a big issue for breakable items.

You would need a receipt from a retailer or an appraisal of the item to establish value to file a claim.

The only way out in the future is to only sell locally for cash.

Anytime you ship something you sell, you will assume liability for a refund.

What about insurance through the shipping agent?

Interesting enough I sold 3 used Mac laptops through eBay for over a thousand each, but this was 10 and more years ago. What I see as the nightmare is if a buyer decides they do not want your item, they vandalize it, and claim it was received this way. Then you are screwed, depending on how eBay rules.

 

[flyinmac]

thanks for your continued input, and I know that responding to you with my counter arguments, is futile, but the buyer in this case is not a consumer, it is a private sale between two parties. Investigating is the only thing I can do right now and will do evidently. At usd370 (incl shpg), while it may not be thousands of dollars, it is an amount I do not want to take on just because the receiving party denied moving a finger claiming pregnancy or by claiming the item was destroyed by postal services.
[doublepost=1529704272][/doublepost]on USPS site, claims can only be filed by US shippers, so that is a closed door.

I respect your feelings on the matter. And my points are not to convince you that you should feel differently.

I’m just pointing out the facts of the situation. Whether right or wrong, those are your recourses.

It’s not easy to take a loss. But some losses are better to just accept, compared to losing more money pursuing a result that won’t end up in favor of you.

Simply put, you can’t prove who damaged it. You hired two parties without a checks and balances. In other words, you didn’t have the status of the product checked as it transferred hands.

To win this case, you need to prove the condition of the product each time it changed hands. And you didn’t hire an auditor.

I wouldn’t invest any money in pursuing this. Your only glimmer of hope, is if one of the parties decides to be gracious and reimburse you for your loss despite a lack of evidence.
[doublepost=1529714372][/doublepost]

I basically stopped selling on eBay because of ebay’s Policy that favors buyers over a decade ago. If mailed through USPS you declare a value, sometimes based on a sell price and if it is broken, I’d assume maybe incorrectly that if it is lost or broken, they would refund the insurance amount. No? Otherwise why buy insurance? I acknowledge that once the item leaves the country, the USPS is off the hook? This would be a big issue for breakable items.



What about insurance through the shipping agent?

Interesting enough I sold 3 used Mac laptops through eBay for over a thousand each, but this was 10 and more years ago. What I see as the nightmare is if a buyer decides they do not want your item, they vandalize it, and claim it was received this way. Then you are screwed, depending on how eBay rules.

It is a risk for sure. 99% of the time, eBay and PayPal will decide in favor of the purchaser. The seller almost always loses.

In businesses, I have operated internationally. But I always had personal contacts and personal representatives at every agency I worked with. And I could at anytime talk to the person who saw my package last.

I did on occasion contact the shipper (including the USPS) and ask to have someone personally put hands on my package right that minute (if it was in a sorting facility - obviously not mid flight).

As an individual, we don’t have that level of contact.

I no longer have that level of representation. So I’m in the same boat as anyone else.

But as a business, I had strings I could pull everywhere.

 

[ActionableMango]

private sale
not insured for being an antique with no establishable value
and two carriers involved

Did you actually read these rules somewhere or are these assumptions on your part? Because what I am seeing is the opposite--I see nothing about a ban on antiques, in fact they are listed as an example of merchandise. Furthermore, USPS claim instructions describe the exact scenario you are in:

For Internet transactions conducted through a Web-based payment network that offers payment services through a stored value account, provide a computer printout of the online transaction identifying the purchaser and seller, price paid, date of transaction, description of item purchased, and assurance that the transaction status is completed. The printout must clearly identify the Web-based payment network provider through which the Internet transaction was conducted.​

If you were prevented from purchasing insurance, then that's frustrating because it doesn't appear to be in accordance with the rules that I've found. If it's actually against the rules, well that's possible, but not what I'm seeing on their website. On the other hand, if you failed to purchase insurance because of your own assumptions, then that's on you.

In any case, you might be in luck. I am seeing on the website that some types of common mail services automatically include insurance in the postage price based on the declared value of the item. Did you declare the value on the customs paperwork? If so, you might as well try to make a claim. Perhaps the type of service you used included insurance automatically.

As for two carriers involved, your claim is with your shipping agent, USPS. If they subcontracted out to Greek post office or anyone else for final delivery, that is their business arrangement, not yours.

 

[PracticalMac]

Take pictures of your packaged items before they go (inside and as finished).

Then get images from receiver.

Helps "bigley".

 

[needfx]

Take pictures of your packaged items before they go (inside and as finished).

Then get images from receiver.

Helps "bigley".

Thanks for the input, and I usually do this, but in this case I did not. I will post some pics from some cool homemade packaging I am particularly proud of. At any rate, it would not change the outcome though as both ebay & paypal consider the responsibility is the seller's.

 

[PracticalMac]

Thanks for the input, and I usually do this, but in this case I did not. I will post some pics from some cool homemade packaging I am particularly proud of. At any rate, it would not change the outcome though as both ebay & paypal consider the responsibility is the seller's.

It would help your case, especially if things get worse.

Also, sending images of package to buyer may be good idea.