Edition teardown/assay, if, when and how much

[Julien]

Companies like iFixit rush to be the first (iFixit even sends a team to New Zealand to be first) with teardowns. The Edition adds the complication of determining the gold content. This is something most are not used to dealing with. Also at what could be north of $10,000 in procurement costs (38mm and 42mm), this will not be an inexpensive teardown. Still I feel sure we will have companies willing to spend the big bucks to be the first to teardown, measure and assay both of the Edition editions (38mm and 42mm).

I’m upping my previous guesstimate also and still feel they may still be too low.

1. Do you think this will happen and if so how soon?
2. What do your expect will be the results?
3. What do you expect the retail prices to be?

1. I’m betting on release day we will have a teardown and at least a weighing of the 38mm and 42mm’s cases.


2. Gold weight and content

38mm (sans strap) case/Crown/button will weigh over 42g. This is 31.5g of fine gold (over a 31.1g oz).
42mm (sans strap) case/Crown/button will weigh over 46g. This is 34.5g of fine gold.​

3. Price guessing (Yellow or Rose same price)

38mm Sports Band: $5000, 42mm Sports Band: $5500
38mm Classic Buckle: $5200, 42mm Classic Buckle $5700
38mm Modern Buckle: $5250, 42mm Modern Buckle $5750
​

I’m thinking about $75 to $100 for the gold Sport bands, about $200 Classic Buckle and about $250 for the Modern Buckle. This makes my package vs straps guesstimates slightly asymmetrical, but they are just guesstimates.

 

[Piggie]

If 42 grams of gold, which is the approx. number I cam up with, based upon a 1mm wall thickness, has a gold value of approx. $1200

Fitted with the same internals as a $349 model.

With the addition of a higher quality glass/sapphire front and back, let's add another $50 for that.

So, we're looking at, $1200, plus say $250 internals, plus $50 for the front/back material.

Brings us to $1500

How do you get to $5500 ?

Please Explain your method of calculations.

What's the extra $4000 for ?

Just sheer profit "Apple Fashion Tax?"

 

[Julien]

Interesting article in TidBITS estimating how the Edition may drastically effect the world's gold supplies.

TidBITS using Wall Street Journal monthly production estimates of about 1,000,000 Editions that Apple could require almost ⅓ of the world's entire gold production to meet Edition needs. That is almost 750 metric tons of Au.

If it even comes close to approaching this level the Watch will be a MAGOR disruptor in the gold industry.

http://tidbits.com/article/15443

 

[lewisd25]

$200 - $250 for the leather straps is kinda low. There is substantial gold content in the straps which will push up the price.

 

[arubinst]

Let's see how many rush to buy an Edition and try to bend it on camera or "accidentally" drop it and shatter the sapphire while taking it out of the box.

Those might come even faster than the teardown videos...

 

[Piggie]

It is going to be interesting to find out how "Creative" Apple has been with it's carefully selected choice of words when it comes to the Gold version of the watch.

Made from 18k solid gold, really could mean almost anything in reality, without technically being a lie.

This basic statement makes us picture an image in our mind and make natural assumptions, but, till someone actually gets one, and perhaps cuts the sucker up, everyone here is simply guessing.

What we know is, like an Chocolate Easter this is a hollow shaped object, with a wall of solid 18k gold. We know the outside dimensions of the gold shell.

What no-one here knows is the "Wall Thickness" of this gold, and also how the wall thickness varies around the shell.

It could be 3mm thick (which it won't be)
It could be 0.25mm thick (which would need supporting underneath to give it strength)

I suspect it will be around the 1.0 to 1.5mm wall thickness, but I am of course guessing as we all are.

Any wall thickness, to a point, could still be classed as solid gold.
Solid gold is still solid gold even if it's 0.25mm thick

 

[kmj2318]

If 42 grams of gold, which is the approx. number I cam up with, based upon a 1mm wall thickness, has a gold value of approx. $1200

Fitted with the same internals as a $349 model.

With the addition of a higher quality glass/sapphire front and back, let's add another $50 for that.

So, we're looking at, $1200, plus say $250 internals, plus $50 for the front/back material.

Brings us to $1500

How do you get to $5500 ?

Please Explain your method of calculations.

What's the extra $4000 for ?

Just sheer profit "Apple Fashion Tax?"

The iPhone costs less than $200 but starts at $750. Pricing is based on value, not cost. Reducing a product to its component costs ignores the most valuable thing Apple does.

 

[leenak]

If you look at the front page article about Brikk (ignore the super ugly watches), you can follow the link to see they are offering an edition watch with .5 carets of diamonds for $7500. So based on that, I'd guess the editions are going to be around $5k.

 

[Julien]

The iPhone costs less than $200 but starts at $750. Pricing is based on value, not cost. Reducing a product to its component costs ignores the most valuable thing Apple does.

I have that person on ignore. Next they will be preaching their wacky it's only a hollow Easter egg shell case thickness theory.

 

[gcooldude86]

If you look at the front page article about Brikk (ignore the super ugly watches), you can follow the link to see they are offering an edition watch with .5 carets of diamonds for $7500. So based on that, I'd guess the editions are going to be around $5k.

I saw that too. Hoping it'll be less than $5K for the Watch Edition.

 

[MeFromHere]

If you look at the front page article about Brikk (ignore the super ugly watches), you can follow the link to see they are offering an edition watch with .5 carets of diamonds for $7500. So based on that, I'd guess the editions are going to be around $5k.

Where does Brikk say they are starting with an Apple Watch Edition? I may have missed it.

I'll assume they start with an Apple Watch or even an Apple Watch Sport until I see a clear statement to the contrary.

 

[Piggie]

I have that person on ignore. Next they will be preaching their wacky it's only a hollow Easter egg shell case thickness theory.

Indeed, and I'm glad you have me on ignore as you are very biased and feel due to your profession you know better than everyone else.

Being insulting about people who may only be able to afford a gold plated watch I found very offensive. There are many very hard working people and families out there, who may have to settle for a gold plated watch, and I don't see why anyone should be rude about them, or the product they buy.

And I know you can't read this so no matter

On the Easter Egg front. I would think most intelligent people can understand this is a perfect analogy of the Apple watch case.

An Egg, made of a thin wall of solid chocolate, hollow inside so that sweets can fit inside it.

An Apple watch case, made of a thin wall of solid gold, hollow inside so that electronics can fit inside it.

This illustrates it perfectly. Solid Walled, Hollow Shell.
Chocolate or Gold. It's a perfect analogy.

I don't know how someone of your supposed intelligence cannot grasp this?

The "only" single thing we don't know is: "How thick this Chocolate/Gold Wall is" This is what will totally determine the price of the edition, and will vary the raw material cost by many many hundreds of dollars.

 

[Julien]

If you look at the front page article about Brikk (ignore the super ugly watches), you can follow the link to see they are offering an edition watch with .5 carets of diamonds for $7500. So based on that, I'd guess the editions are going to be around $5k.

It could very well be that they are just taking the Sport and Gold Plating it and adding the diamonds. They may not even be using any Edition's at all. Here is what it says.

...MODIFICATIONS INCLUDE THE SETTING OF PERFECT DIAMONDS AND PLATING IN YELLOW GOLD, PINK GOLD OR PLATINUM....

 

[MeFromHere]

Companies like iFixit rush to be the first (iFixit even sends a team to New Zealand to be first) with teardowns. The Edition adds the complication of determining the gold content. This is something most are not used to dealing with. Also at what could be north of $10,000 in procurement costs (38mm and 42mm), this will not be an inexpensive teardown. Still I feel sure we will have companies willing to spend the big bucks to be the first to teardown, measure and assay both of the Edition editions (38mm and 42mm).

You wouldn't need to tear apart an Edition watch to get a good estimate of the gold content...

1. Buy a stainless steel Apple Watch and an Edition watch (both the same size).
2. Remove the bands from both watches. Weigh the gold watch.
3. Take apart the SS watch. Weight the case and the innards (including screen, crystal, back cover, and sensors) separately.

The weight of the gold watch minus the weight of the SS innards will be close to the weight of the gold watch case. Most of the innards will be identical, and any differences in details will be small and will involve materials with relatively low density -- a minor error.

Then take the gold watch back to the store and get a refund.

 

[Julien]

You wouldn't need to tear apart an Edition watch to get a good estimate of the gold content...

1. Buy a stainless steel Apple Watch and an Edition watch (both the same size).
2. Remove the bands from both watches. Weigh the gold watch.
3. Take apart the SS watch. Weight the case and the innards (including screen, crystal, back cover, and sensors) separately.

The weight of the gold watch minus the weight of the SS innards will be close to the weight of the gold watch case. Most of the innards will be identical, and any differences in details will be small and will involve materials with relatively low density -- a minor error.

Then take the gold watch back to the store and get a refund.

Since it is all but certain that the case dimensions/volume will be identical for all the Watch editions your method would be sound. You win a golden for thinking outside the box or I win a rotten for failure of the imagination.

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

Hope you have AppleCare+ for that.

 

[Piggie]

Hope you have AppleCare+ for that.

I want some chocolate now

Sports watch and a lorry load of chocolate or a Gold watch and no chocolate.

An easy choice

 

[Night Spring]

I have that person on ignore. Next they will be preaching their wacky it's only a hollow Easter egg shell case thickness theory.

What's wrong with describing the gold watch case as a hollow Easter egg? Seems like a perfectly good analogy to me, but perhaps I'm missing some basic reason why this analogy is wrong due to my lack of expertise in technology/manufacturing. If so, I'd appreciate it if you could take the time to explain.

 

[danniexi]

If 42 grams of gold, which is the approx. number I cam up with, based upon a 1mm wall thickness, has a gold value of approx. $1200

Fitted with the same internals as a $349 model.

With the addition of a higher quality glass/sapphire front and back, let's add another $50 for that.

So, we're looking at, $1200, plus say $250 internals, plus $50 for the front/back material.

Brings us to $1500

How do you get to $5500 ?

Please Explain your method of calculations.

What's the extra $4000 for ?

Just sheer profit "Apple Fashion Tax?"

Including labor costs, yes.

I do wholesale jewelry. Using 10KT gold for example, I spend $/gram on a certain item. I sell it wholesale for around $+30%/gram. The retailer will sell it at any price on how they see fit (depending on the market). Usually jewelry is sold at double-triple markup, again, depending on the market.

Tiffany & Co do the same thing for their jewelry. I sell similar looking silver bracelets at a quarter of their costs, yet people are willing to spend their money on something that has a HUGE markup, just because the jewelry has that "Tiffany" stamping and the fact that it comes in a blue box.

Apple is doing the same.

 

[Piggie]

Including labor costs, yes.

I do wholesale jewelry. Using 10KT gold for example, I spend $/gram on a certain item. I sell it wholesale for around $+30%/gram. The retailer will sell it at any price on how they see fit (depending on the market). Usually jewelry is sold at double-triple markup, again, depending on the market.

Tiffany & Co do the same thing for their jewelry. I sell similar looking silver bracelets at a quarter of their costs, yet people are willing to spend their money on something that has a HUGE markup, just because the jewelry has that "Tiffany" stamping and the fact that it comes in a blue box.

Apple is doing the same.

Well we shall see.
I do find it amusing how on one hand some were saying Apple is going to come in and totally shake up the BIG current watch makers.

Then on the other hand, people are suggesting they will simply fall into line with MASSIVE mark-ups on the value of the gold vs the price/mark-up to the consumer.

In my mind the BIG well known watch companies would get shaken up big time if Apple charged what the gold was worth in their watches, plus the normal type of Apple profit they have of other products they make.

If Apple does charge a GIANT mark-up, like, as you say other companies do, then these other companies will breath the biggest sigh of relief ever as they know Apple have not come in to shake them up, but just fall into line, and they can carry on with their massive mark-ups as always.

If they are making DVD players for $500, and you want to come in and shake it all up and make a BIG name for yourself you don't bring out your new DVD player for $475.
You bring your model out for $99 and shake the $500 boys to their knees and watch them panic as buyers flock to your products.

We'll see which way Apple plays it.
They can either fall into line and everyone is happy or make a bold move as they enter the arena and really stand out and establish their own rules others will have to in time bend to or start to fail.

 

[danniexi]

Well we shall see.
I do find it amusing how on one hand some were saying Apple is going to come in and totally shake up the BIG current watch makers.

Then on the other hand, people are suggesting they will simply fall into line with MASSIVE mark-ups on the value of the gold vs the price/mark-up to the consumer.

In my mind the BIG well known watch companies would get shaken up big time if Apple charged what the gold was worth in their watches, plus the normal type of Apple profit they have of other products they make.

If Apple does charge a GIANT mark-up, like, as you say other companies do, then these other companies will breath the biggest sigh of relief ever as they know Apple have not come in to shake them up, but just fall into line, and they can carry on with their massive mark-ups as always.

If they are making DVD players for $500, and you want to come in and shake it all up and make a BIG name for yourself you don't bring out your new DVD player for $475.
You bring your model out for $99 and shake the $500 boys to their knees and watch them panic as buyers flock to your products.

We'll see which way Apple plays it.
They can either fall into line and everyone is happy or make a bold move as they enter the arena and really stand out and establish their own rules others will have to in time bend to or start to fail.

Agreed. We simply have to wait the 10 days and see what Apple will do. Will they sell it for $10,000 or $5,000? Its very difficult to say as at both prices, there is a very large markup. We have to remember that even though the gold is hard to work with, they are the manufacturer. There is not wholesale/middleman they have to go through. They make it and sell it as they see fit.

Personally, I don't think any watch maker will have to worry about the Apple Watch. Apple does not have the timeless/luxury thing going on with their brand. $5,000 is not high enough for a super luxurious watch, and the logo does not signify exclusivity at all.

 

[Julien]

What's wrong with describing the gold watch case as a hollow Easter egg? Seems like a perfectly good analogy to me, but perhaps I'm missing some basic reason why this analogy is wrong due to my lack of expertise in technology/manufacturing. If so, I'd appreciate it if you could take the time to explain.

Because it is inaccurate. Hollow gold has a definition in the jewelry industry. Here is a great definition of the 2.

What is the difference between a hollow gold necklace and a solid gold necklace?

Hollow chains/bracelets means exactly that, they are made with hollow pieces of metal making the jewelry item light weight and of course much less expensive. The downfall is once the item breaks or dents, they usually can not be repaired. Solid chains/bracelets consists of solid pieces of gold or silver. These pieces will be heavier and more expensive but are repairable and with proper care could last a lifetime.

http://murreys.com/article/22-what-...-gold-necklace-and-a-solid-gold-necklace.html

The cases will all be the same dimensions for the Sport Watch and Edition. The Piggie person claims the Edition will be "...…The actual “case” looks like it could very well be, a thin eggshell around the inner body…..". This would be deceptive advertising and would almost certainly violate FTC rules on gold usage. The FTC is VERY strict on how gold is presented in jewelry. Apple is not about to run afoul of the FTC on this not to mention the press and public negative outcry that would ensue.

Here is a link to the FTC's precious metals rules.
http://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/rule...eedings/guides-jewelry-precious-metals-pewter

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

The cases will all be the same dimensions for the Sport Watch and Edition. The Piggie person claims the Edition will be "...…The actual “case” looks like it could very well be, a thin eggshell around the inner body…..". This would be deceptive advertising and would almost certainly violate FTC rules on gold usage. The FTC is VERY strict on how gold is presented in jewelry. Apple is not about to run afoul of the FTC on this not to mention the press and public negative outcry that would ensue.

Here is a link to the FTC's precious metals rules.
http://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/rule...eedings/guides-jewelry-precious-metals-pewter

Yes, but isn't this semantics? If you take a solid gold block and hollow most of it out for the innards, doesn't it basically become a thin eggshell?

 

[Night Spring]

Because it is inaccurate. Hollow gold has a definition in the jewelry industry.

Ok, so maybe "hollow gold" isn't the right term to use. However, what Piggie was saying is that the watch as a whole isn't solid gold (or solid aluminum or stainless steel). It has to have empty space inside for the S1 chip, sensors, etc. So isn't the metal outer casing of the watch (whether it be gold, aluminum or steel) kind of like the chocolate Easter egg? It's an outer shell, with space inside.

 

[Piggie]

Solid:

http://blog.fireflycreative.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/solidchoc_montage.jpg


Hollow:

http://www.sweetcitycandy.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/cadbury-chocolate-egg-inside.jpg


Which one do you think most closely matches the case of the Apple Watch

Julien keeps getting hung up with the term hollow.
I use it, in it's natural English sense we all understand.
A solid egg, a hollow egg.

We all understand the body of the watch is not solid as if it was solid then we could not get anything inside it.

We also understand what a hollow chain link is as opposed to a solid chain link.

A hollow chain link is cheaper as it's not solid gold all the way thru the link, it's hollow gold.

I still stand by my analogy, as, if you took a hollow single link of a gold chain, scaled this one hollow link up to 42mm in size, you would then, have something not a million miles away from the Apple watch case.

It's a hollow shell of gold, with a solid gold wall thickness.
We all understand that without any fancy terminology.
We just don't know the thickness of this gold wall.

The Renders I just posted, show a 1mm wall thickness, which I'd welcome your views on, as a "does that look about right to you" point of view?

----------

Ok, so maybe "hollow gold" isn't the right term to use. However, what Piggie was saying is that the watch as a whole isn't solid gold (or solid aluminum or stainless steel). It has to have empty space inside for the S1 chip, sensors, etc. So isn't the metal outer casing of the watch (whether it be gold, aluminum or steel) kind of like the chocolate Easter egg? It's an outer shell, with space inside.

I'm glad you are intelligent enough to understand what I'm saying

He's very stuck on the word hollow, which seems to have this very negative term in the jewellery industry, Hollow gold = cheap and nasty.

I know you understand what I mean when I say hollow.

I'm not using Hollow and Shell in any detrimental way, I'm just describing in normal understandable English what the thing actually is

All good fun

----------

Yes, but isn't this semantics? If you take a solid gold block and hollow most of it out for the innards, doesn't it basically become a thin eggshell?

Exactly.

Pleased you can understand this simple point also

It's a piece of metal, hollowed out, leaving a shell of gold behind, of a wall thickness we as yet are unsure of.

Simple as that