Eggs and Milk: Good for you, or bad for you?

[Abstract]

What do you think?

I had lunch with around 10 guys today, and one of these guys said that someone told him yesterday that milk was bad for you. Everyone at the table said it was b.s. immediately. Actually, I don't think it's good for you, but I'm not so sure. I want to hear other people say it too.

I'll tell you one thing though.....it seems really unnatural. No animal has ever milked another animal for it, so I'm sure it's not necessary. It also might contain a lot of weird growth hormones and stuff given to it by humans. Anyway, if I ever saw a an emu milking a giraffe, I'd certainly whip out the camera phone, because that is ****ed up!


Don't even get me started about eggs. I just don't think it's healthy for you, not the whole thing, anyway.

 

[furious]

Milk contains many vital minerals and vitamins. Such as calcium.

Eggs well they are just delicious.

 

[Blue Velvet]

Milk: societies that don't feature dairy as a major part of their overall diet have far lower rates of osteoporosis. Milk has been so heavily lobbied by producers and their cohorts in governments for so many years, we have this idea that it's good for you. Saying that, I still have it in coffee and tea.

Eggs: It's not cholesterol in food that raises your cholesterol levels, it's saturated fats. Eggs in themselves aren't that bad for you but buy organic; they taste better.

 

[takao]

in normal doses they are not bad .. perhaps if you eat too much

giving growth hormones isn't allowed here

personally i drink milk only in moderation .. i don't like it as much as i did as a kid .. but i'm still eating milk products
for eggs:i rarely eat them alone (thus not in a dish etc.) .. perhaps 3-4 times a year, with one occasion being eastern and the other being sunday breakfast


that aside with animals: in zoos it can happen that one animal "adopts" a complete other animal and gives him milk
also some ants "milk" some lice but that product isn't really milk as we know it

 

[furious]

Milk: societies that don't feature dairy as a major part of their overall diet have far lower rates of osteoporosis. .

WTF. Both Vitamin D and Calcium help to prevent osteoporosis. Vitamin D the body can produce, Calcium it cannot. Calcium is found and most easily ingested thorough drinking milk. Any milk will do. Goat milk is nice, Sheep milk, Buffalo milk and of cause domesticated cows. Vitamin D is need to help the body absorb the calcium. Vitamin D is produced in the skin photo-chemically. Calcium can be absorbed in the kidneys and intestine.

 

[Blue Velvet]

WTF.

Consumption of dairy products, particularly at age 20 years, were associated with an increased risk of hip fractures... metabolism of dietary protein causes increased urinary excretion of calcium."
{American Journal of Epidemiology 1994;139


Osteoporosis is caused by a number of things, one of the most important being too much dietary protein."
{Science 1986;233, 4763}

"Dietary protein increases production of acid in the blood which can be neutralized by calcium mobilized from the skeleton."
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1995; 61 (4)

"There is no significant association between teenaged milk consumption and the risk of adult fractures. Data indicate that frequent milk consumption and higher dietary calcium intakes in middle aged women do not provide protection against hip or forearm fractures... women consuming greater amounts of calcium from dairy foods had significantly increased risks of hip fractures, while no increase in fracture risk was observed for the same levels of calcium from nondairy sources."
12-year Harvard study of 78,000 women American Journal of Public Health 1997;87

http://milk.elehost.com/html/osteoporosis.html

 

[furious]

LOL Americans. You eat everything in moderation. But that is the American way. Consume until there is no more left to consume then move on to the next thing. Rinse repeat.

That web site is no better than saying that if you eat 2 pounds of chocolate everyday with a sedate lifestyle you will get obese ( increased risk of heart disease etc.). Then obviously chocolate is bad for you. Sarcasm I hope was noted.

 

[Blue Velvet]

LOL Americans.

I'm not American. If you can provide some links or quotes from equally reputable sources as the American Journal of Epidemiology or a 12 year study at Harvard of 78,000 women, then be my guest.

Besides, it's not about the calcium. It's about the protein.

I'm a Kiwi that lives in the UK. I know, as well as you do, the tremendous influence and political power that farmers and lobbyists have had on governments both in Australia and NZ, let alone in the UK and the US. For years we've been told that milk is good for us by the people who want to sell us the bloody stuff...

 

[takao]

http://milk.elehost.com/html/osteoporosis.html

hm most say that eating too much proteins is the case ..should thus be not reducing protein intake through meat be reduced ? also beer intake is another reason for increased amount of loss of calcium and so is little sport/moving to little

and coffee and other caffein included drinks (coke) do similiar too so do nuts


to reduce the whole thing to milk is ridiculous... after all did you check the vitamin D input statistics world wide and looked for correlation ? because many people eat too little of that

edit: also in china/other asian countries osteoporosis is considered under-diagnosed

edit2: and the huge soy producing lobby in america might not have something to do with it either right ?
the german Federal Research Centre for Nutrition and Food with it's Milk chemics and technology institute said: "the health advantages gained through consuming milk surpass their potential risks"

 

[Blue Velvet]

hm most say that eating too much proteins is the case ..should thus be not reducing protein intake through meat be reduced ?

Perhaps so, but the subject is dairy milk and whether it's good for you. It's full of saturated fats and animal proteins, so no, it's not 'good' for you. Not as good for you as the industry claims.

I'm not some anti-milk zealot, it (skimmed) goes in my drinks, it goes on my muesli. But I'm also not blind to what the real issues are about it, which is this unthinking assumption that it's good for you, promoted by years of lobbying and advertising by dairy producers who have very deep pockets and wish to protect their markets.

In other news: Smoking tobacco does not cause lung cancer — International Tobacco Growers Association

 

[Peterkro]

As an indication of how strong the Dairy industry in NZ was (it's still very strong but not much as it was) I can remember (late sixties) when the only way to get vegetable based spread (margarine etc) was with a doctors prescription from a pharmacy.I know it's hard to believe but from personal experience I know it's true.

 

[takao]

Perhaps so, but the subject is dairy milk and whether it's good for you. It's full of saturated fats and animal proteins, so no, it's not 'good' for you. Not as good for you as the industry claims.

the thing is that it is indeed healthy but the problem is that combined with _other eating_ habits it's not, because those disadvantages completely compensate for it

meat has 20% protein ... milk 3,5% ...

edit: and no need to talk about margerine where history turned out to be the biggest joke health related

edit2: i never broke a bone so far either but i'm not that old

 

[srf4real]

Been drinking 2 to 3 gallons of milk per week since I was in jr. high school... never had any serious illness, never broken a bone in my body - not even a fracture (and I've had lots of opportunity to break appendages) still look and feel like I'm in my 20's but I'll be 40 this summer. Milk is good.

eggs give me gas.

 

[sushi]

Milk and eggs are good!

 

[Blue Velvet]

the thing is that it is indeed healthy

Tell that to the estimated 90% of Asian people or 70% of black people who are lactose-intolerant... also:

A diet high in calcium has been implicated as a potential risk factor for prostate cancer. In a Harvard study of male health professionals, men who drank two or more glasses of milk a day were almost twice as likely to develop advanced prostate cancer as those who didn't drink milk at all.

Clearly, although more research is needed, we cannot be confident that high milk intake is safe.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html


Look, what I'm saying is this: milk, possibly OK in small amounts... but this disheartens me. I love milkshakes and icecream, but I also know that it's not a natural substance for humans to consume, being more suited to calves rather than humans, and not in any way healthy in the way that the dairy industry likes to portray.

Furthermore, societies with historically strong dairy industries have brainwashed us all into believing that it is this complete food without side-effects or other drawbacks.

So, going back to the thread's question: Is milk good for you? The balance of the argument says no, to me at least. Every nutritional element within it can be gained from other, far healthier sources. Does that stop me from using it in small amounts? No.

And what's more, this is all putting aside the dubious practices of the dairy industry anyway, where yields are maximised by some serious messing around...

 

[sushi]

The problem with studies, is who do you believe?

It seems like these days, you can find support on both sides of almost every argument. Frustrating as to know who or what is true.

 

[Abstract]

Yeah, the stuff about China and Japan is true. Hong Kong-ese people have extremely low levels of milk in their diet, but I don't believe it causes a large health epidemic in Hong Kong. Same with Japan. The only time I had milk during my 3 week trip in Japan 2 months ago was when I put some cheese in my sushi (yes, we made our own sushi for dinner one time, and yes, we put cheese in it.....delicious!), and the other times were when I ordered hot chocolate in Tokyo. That's it.

 

[Blue Velvet]

The problem with studies, is who do you believe?

You believe those who aren't trying to sell you something, who don't have a vested interest in taking money from your pocket, or are acting as a proxy for those who are selling something; whether it's a product, a medicine, a belief...

If a study of a sample of 78,000 women is published by Harvard, then to me that outweighs anecdotal evidence from a sample of 1.

 

[takao]

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html

you get a F for missquoting since you left out this sentence (on purpose i guess)

"Moreover, the association appears to be with calcium itself, rather than with dairy products in general. "

but i wanted to add this from your article:

"At moderate levels, though, consumption of calcium and dairy products has benefits beyond bone health, including possibly lowering the risk of high blood pressure and colon cancer.(12-14) While the blood pressure benefits appear fairly small, the protection against colon cancer seems somewhat larger, and most of the latter benefit comes from having just one glass of milk per day. Getting more than this doesn't seem to lower risk any further."

as usual moderation is the key ... and after all that's what is all about ...

you seem to have a problem with the dairy industry mostly after all ...
after all i still prefer milk from a cow than soy milk out of 1/3 genetical modified soy, or butter made from milk to magerine made of numerous oils ,pektin,gelantine, artificial colours etc.

 

[FDX]

I just had eggs, bacon and milk...mmmmm I feel good.

 

[Blue Velvet]

you get a F for missquoting since you left out this sentence (on purpose i guess)...

Not at all. The way I see it it's a bit like alcohol. There is plenty of evidence to say that small amounts of certain alcohol is good for you, particularly red wine. However, there is plenty of overwhelming evidence to say that alcohol is not good for you at all.

However on the balance of things, very few people are going to make the blanket argument that alcohol is good for you. Enjoyable, yes. But it's also a depressant. That won't stop me enjoying it, but I'm not kidding myself that's its somehow good for me.

you seem to have a problem with the dairy industry mostly after all ...
after all i still prefer milk from a cow than soy milk out of 1/3 genetical modified soy, or butter made from milk to magerine made of numerous oils ,pektin,gelantine, artificial colours etc.

And why not have a problem with the dairy industry?

http://www.oligopolywatch.com/2004/09/12.html

The political influence, based on economic self interest, that played a role in the revision of Dietary Goals has impacted each edition of Dietary Guidelines, as well. The recommendations of the advisory committee for the 2005 revision have already been criticized as kowtowing to special interests. A feature article in the Wall Street Journal (August 30, 2004), "How Milk Got A Major Boost By Food Panel," for example, documents in detail how the committee's recommendation that American adults boost their dairy intake by 50 percent a day was "a major victory for the $50 billion U.S. dairy industry, which has long lobbied for increased consumption guidelines." The WSJ article quotes Walter Willett, MD, chairman of the department of nutrition at Harvard University's School of Public Health, who called the committee's report "egregious" because it omitted studies linking dairy consumption to cancer. Willett also stated, "There is no nutritional requirement for dairy at all."

http://naturalhealthline.com/newsletter/1sep04/inthenews.htm



Perhaps if you also knew about the growth hormones and antibiotics that get pumped into your average dairy herd, you'd think twice as well. Besides, I'm not making an argument for those things. I don't buy butter or margarine. I detest soy milk... it's not an either/or situation.

 

[sushi]

You believe those who aren't trying to sell you something, who don't have a vested interest in taking money from your pocket, or are acting as a proxy for those who are selling something; whether it's a product, a medicine, a belief...

Ideally, I agree with what you say. The problem is trying to find someone/organization that is this way these days.

If a study of a sample of 78,000 women is published by Harvard, then to me that outweighs anecdotal evidence from a sample of 1.

And you are sure that Harvard doesn't have a vested interest? Just asking.

 

[FleurDuMal]

I take a typically boring laymans view of it all. Everything is good in moderation.

Anyway, I'm just about to have some scrambled eggs now - complete with butter, salt and milk, so screw you lot

 

[Abstract]

^^A vested interest in destroying the dairy industry? I certainly wouldn't believe it.

Interests generally have to do with proving that something is good, while the alternative is bad. Who is pushing to destroy the milk industry........and why?



*DUN DUN DUUUNNN*

 

[takao]

Perhaps if you also knew about the growth hormones and antibiotics that get pumped into your average dairy herd, you'd think twice as well. Besides, I'm not making an argument for those things. I don't buy butter or margarine. I detest soy milk... it's not an either/or situation.

you mean those growth hormones which are banned/forbidden in the EU ? (even for meat production) and do you know how regulated antibiotics are already _especially_ in the milk production ? the days of cluster bomb like giving antibiotics are long gone .. every injection/giving antibiotics through food is handled in work together with doctors and is put on records .. in austria it goes so far that the milk then isn't considered fit for sale
(ignoring the fact that sick cows normally don't give milk anyways)

perhaps the situation is different in the UK


if you are worried about antibiotics and hormones in milk then i would strongly recommend looking at labels of other products because believe it or not.. that's a rather small problem (in the EU) ...

it's the same with fish which is "lobbied" to be healthy ..except that the mercury/heavy metal levels there are much more dangerous