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In what way was Microsoft found guilty of "pay offs" to computer makers in relation to the 1990s antitrust case?
"The DOJ alleged that Microsoft had a stranglehold on the software industry, forcing PC manufacturers to make Internet Explorer the default browser on their computers. Microsoft's actions, it alleged, stifled the competition."
Apple controls around 58% of the U.S. mobile OS market in which mobile apps are offered/sold through an app store. They therefore do control a dominant portion of that market. Costco doesn't control anywhere near 58% of the market in which retail store goods (or however Costco's market or markets are defined) are sold.
The current percentage is irrevant. Apple's market share is going down and could go below 50%. Apple controls 100% of the ios app store, while Costco controls 100% of it's warehouses. For right now, the court system does not declare there is an issue.
 
"The DOJ alleged that Microsoft had a stranglehold on the software industry, forcing PC manufacturers to make Internet Explorer the default browser on their computers. Microsoft's actions, it alleged, stifled the competition."

MS simply made IE the default browser their OS, Windows. It wasn’t even demanding revenue shares to third parties to deploy their apps as some do today. Pure vertical integration.They have built the platform. How is that strong holding manufacturers? Customers and OEMs could choose other OS, other platforms.

Same stuff Apple and others are doing today with pocket computers. How else can a company with only one true hero product and 4 digital services include the App Store riding in its back including the App Store have greater revenues and profits than companies with multiple heroes products, multiple services spanning tenths of industries?

If you agree it’s DOJ back then in MS case for sure you would agree with such a stance regarding Apple and iOS now. Otherwise it’s nothing but double standards no?
 
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If you agree it’s DOJ back then in MS case for sure you would agree with such a stance regarding Apple and iOS now. Otherwise it’s nothing but double standards no?
No double standards. Apple is not a dominant platform. And the DOJ doesn’t seem to want to pursue this. A more analogous situation is making safari the default browser, which as been addressed.
 
That's not how antitrust works in the US. Again, feel free to read the information that I linked to on the FTC website. iOS is a feature of the iPhone. It's not a separate product.

There’s nothing in the definition that suggests Apple couldn't be considered a monopoly in mobile OS market.



Correct! That's why it's offered as a separate product.

It's not really any more (or less) of a separate product then iOS as Safari requires iOS or macOS although, like iOS, future versions/updates can be downloaded on their own.

Apple competes in the browser market with Safari and in the mobile OS market with iOS.
 
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"The DOJ alleged that Microsoft had a stranglehold on the software industry, forcing PC manufacturers to make Internet Explorer the default browser on their computers. Microsoft's actions, it alleged, stifled the competition."

But where is the bribe/pay off part you mentioned?



The current percentage is irrevant. Apple's market share is going down and could go below 50%. Apple controls 100% of the ios app store, while Costco controls 100% of it's warehouses. For right now, the court system does not declare there is an issue.

The current percentage is not necessarily irrelevant and it doesn't matter if it's going up or down. What would matter is the percentage at the time any alleged antitrust/anticompetitive activities were taking place.

Again, it's not about controlling 100% of their App Store. It's about controlling a dominant portion of the mobile OS market where their App Store exists and where other app stores would (if Apple didn't prevent it) compete.
 
But where is the bribe/pay off part you mentioned?





The current percentage is not necessarily irrelevant and it doesn't matter if it's going up or down. What would matter is the percentage at the time any alleged antitrust/anticompetitive activities were taking place.

Again, it's not about controlling 100% of their App Store. It's about controlling a dominant portion of the mobile OS market where their App Store exists and where other app stores would (if Apple didn't prevent it) compete.
I’ll dig up the info on the incentive payments or retract it. However apple still does not control a majority of the cell phone market.
 
Apple is not a dominant platform.

It does not dominate every pocket computer / smartphone platform but definitely one of the dominant platforms. A non dominant one would say Linux based smartphones etc.

I think finally we reach to the point that you agree that after all Apple is doing what MS tried to do even in more invasive ways. Vertical integration was simply blocked by regulations. Certain senators back then even talked about splitting the company, that would be an error.

Your issue seams to be that it does not have the same market share hence is not the same thing … for you.
 
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I’ll dig up the info on the incentive payments or retract it. However apple still does not control a majority of the cell phone market.

Hehehe, you and the cell phones.. Now is a cell phone, meaning in terms of market even dumb phone count. Is not even a smartphone … hehehe.

In the US has the majority of the smartphone market. According to the public stats.

Anyway whatever regulation will a panel of experts providing their expert opinion on the matter. The policy is than defined considering all angles.
 
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It does not dominate every pocket computer / smartphone platform but definitely one of the dominant platforms. A non dominant one would say Linux based smartphones etc.

I think finally we reach to the point that you agree that after all Apple is doing what MS tried to do even in more invasive ways. Your issue seams to be that it does not have the same market share hence is not the same thing … for you.
No I don’t agree. MS was selling their licenses to a third party computer manufacturer and trying to dictate conditions. More similar to Sony. Apple is not selling licenses to a third party. Apple is providing an opt-in digital warehouse.
 
It does not dominate every pocket computer / smartphone platform but definitely one of the dominant platforms. A non dominant one would say Linux based smartphones etc.

I think finally we reach to the point that you agree that after all Apple is doing what MS tried to do even in more invasive ways. Vertical integration was simply blocked by regulations. Certain senators back then even talked about splitting the company, that would be an error.

Your issue seams to be that it does not have the same market share hence is not the same thing … for you.
Samsung has more smartphones in circulation than apple.
 
Hehehe, you and the cell phones.. Now is a cell phone, meaning in terms of market even dumb phone count. Is not even a smartphone … hehehe.

In the US has the majority of the smartphone market. According to the public stats.

Anyway whatever regulation will a panel of experts providing their expert opinion on the matter. The policy is than defined considering all angles.
Lol, How many people would buy these devices without the cellular chip? An iPhone without a cell chip is an iPod.

At any rate you and I are powerless about the regulation (or lack thereof) itself.
 
Samsung has more smartphones in circulation than apple.

Samsung is also one of the dominant platforms. Now in the US last time o checked the stats, Apple market share was higher.

Point being that Apple indeed does not have a monopoly over smartphones, but is indeed a dominant platform.
 
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Lol, How many people would buy these devices without the cellular chip? An iPhone without a cell chip is an iPod.

We are not gonna have this conversation again. Already demonstrated you that such a stance does not make any sense. How many would buy the iPhone if not for its pocket computer abilities? For sure you are not implying that a feature that any $30 mobile phone is what defines a smartphone, case in case an iPhone. Would you buy an iPhone without a display? What if it was not touched based? It makes no sense in defining a kind of a computer that way.

Look. It’s due to arguments like yours that the thing will be regulated. most defenses are based on a factitious reality. The defenses of each position that aren’t, do have merit and should be considered by regulators … .
 
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No I don’t agree. MS was selling their licenses to a third party computer manufacturer and trying to dictate conditions.

Just the same way Apple is dictating their conditions to license their tech to digital services. What is fundamental the difference? That they were not forcing chrome to use the IE engine like Apple forces WebKit? Windows was and is their platform to license. Weren’t you just a minute ago arguing that companies should have a monopoly over their properties? I don’t get your change of heart when Is some other entity but Apple.

It’s very simple. I’m consistent m. I believe back then regulation on MS invasive policies were granted. As I believe now are granted to dominant platforms such as Apple. So that the layer of digital business keep their monopoly over their properties as Apple can, but more fundamentally user have more control over their properties and relationships in a world that is more and more dominated by tech, devices.
 
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Just the same way Apple is dictating their conditions to license their tech to digital services. What is fundamental the difference? That they were not forcing chrome to use the IE engine like Apple forces WebKit? Windows was and is their platform to license. Weren’t you just a minute ago arguing that companies should have a monopoly over their properties? I don’t get your change of heart when Is some other entity but Apple.

It’s very simple. I’m consistent m. I believe back then regulation on MS invasive policies were granted. As I believe now are granted to dominant platforms such as Apple. So that the layer of digital business keep their monopoly over their properties as Apple can, but more fundamentally user have more control over their properties and relationships in a world that is more and more dominated by tech, devices.
No, you’re reducing the nuances to a lowest common denominator. Nuances matter, sometimes.
 
More people would buy the iPhone without the app store than without a cellular chip. Imo.

I agree. Yet such feature albeit necessary is not the sufficient defining factor sustaining the reason why we pay more than $30 for this kind of device. As as it stands per your evaluation, neither is the App Store. So what are the necessary and sufficient category defining factors?

It seams that your are moving around and around just to avoid what actually matters as a device of its kind … for some reason ;)

A pocket sized computer ($500+) with full cellular capabilities ($30) describes such defining factors. The concept has evolved from cellular phones a decade ago … as you say “in a galaxy far far way”. Cellular phones were replaced by pocket computers with cellular capabilities. Apple contribution to this evolution to cellular connectivity, mobile communications, was IMHO key.

Even Apple plays with the popular notion of a computer, keyboard, mouse and all that with its marketing … “Whats a Computer?”

".... A computer is a digital electronic machine that can be programmed to carry out sequences of arithmetic or logical operations(computation) automatically. Modern computers can perform generic sets of operations known as programs (or Apps). These programs (Apps) enable computers to perform a wide range of tasks. A computer system is a "complete" computer that includes the hardware, operating system(main software), and peripheral equipment needed and used for "full" operation.....

Mobile computers

The first mobile computers were heavy and ran from mains power. The 50 lb (23 kg) IBM 5100 was an early example. Later portables such as the Osborne 1 and Compaq Portable were considerably lighter but still needed to be plugged in. The first laptops, such as the Grid Compass, removed this requirement by incorporating batteries – and with the continued miniaturization of computing resources and advancements in portable battery life, portable computers grew in popularity in the 2000s.[90]

The same developments allowed manufacturers to integrate computing resources into cellular mobile phones by the early 2000s. These smartphones and tablets run on a variety of operating systems and recently became the dominant computing device on the market.[91] These are powered by System on a Chip(SoCs), which are complete computers on a microchip the size of a coin.[89]" -
Wiki

I don't have much more to say regarding your opinion of the iPhone being fundamentally characterised as a cell phone. It goes contrary to any evidence. From pricing, engineering, from the perspective of using such device compared with a standard cell phone of $30 or so. It is irrational. Like saying a car is a bicycle because it uses and wheels along with a propulsion mechanism.

The only way I understand your stance is that by reducing the smartphone to a cell phone it opens a vast competition spectrum that helps you to redefine the smartphone market to one that fits your rhetoric that Apple is not a dominant company in the sector. That is where this detour started. But you and I know that its BS, more so concerning digital services. No one pays $500+ for a device that could be fundamentally bought for $30. No one buys a bicycle when it needs a Car, to the point Cars and Bicycles do not compete ... Cars compete with Cars, Bicycles with Bicycles, Bikes with Bikes .... Its that simple!

I think nuances are very important. But it seams that for you nuances are only important when it fits your preferred stance. If not, quickly opt for least common denominator or should I say the broadest of the generalisations possible ... nuances if not that nuanced become immaterial.
 
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No, you’re reducing the nuances to a lowest common denominator. Nuances matter, sometimes.

Yes sometimes matter. But which ones ...? The fabricated IE bribes? That was never a case. Yes MS has been accused several times of bribing ... that is illegal. But vertical integrating a browser into an OS was not illegal back then as it is not today. Yet, back then MS was forced by regulators to present other browsers as options ... go figure (Im glad it did). Today if Apple was asked to do that ... oh dear oh dear ... socialists .... Heck some would have stroked even if forced to allow third party browser engines ...
 
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Yes sometimes matter. But which ones ...? The fabricated IE bribes? That was never a case. Yes MS has been accused several times of bribing ... that is illegal. But vertical integrating a browser into an OS was not illegal back then as it is not today. Yet, back then MS was forced by regulators to present other browsers as options ... go figure (Im glad it did). Today if Apple was asked to do that ... oh dear oh dear ... socialists .... Heck some would have stroked even if forced to allow third party browser engines ...
If you’re not clear about that case you can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation
 
If you’re not clear about that case you can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation

I'm familiar with the cases. It seams that you may not be. There were no bribes in these class of cases .... Your claim is false.

Fundamentally MS was aiming to do what Apple is doing with iOS and is thinking for macOS. Tie all its multiple businesses into the Windows Platform while conditioning ever and controlling more users and digital services towards its use. That is all there is to it. Overall all it was ruled that the company could not use their own platform that way … it was considered monopolistic given the dominant position of its OS.

“Microsoft agreed to a deal under which, among other things, the company would not make the sale of its operating systems conditional on the purchase of any other Microsoft product.”

The above deal was imposed by regulators to avoid over bundling. It’s looks quite similar to Apple current practices. Both users and digital services buy devices and license APIs with the condition of using the App Store services … another business. You said yourself that the App Store was not a core feature that users decision or digital services to buy or license iPhones or the OS. But it’s nevertheless crucial to its profits … in other words there is a disconnect between the profits and the value perceived … entirely powered by the conditioning imposed by the policies vertically integrating both.

Cheers.
 
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[…].

Fundamentally […].
No, Reducing the cases to the lowest common denominator of “some company, did something.” I do not believe they were not fundamentally the same. One was a software manufacturer that licenses its software to hardware vendors and demanded concessions. The other an integrated hardware and software vendor that offers an opt-in experience almost across its entire product line. See the difference?
 
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No, Reducing the cases to the lowest common denominator of “some company, did something.” I do not believe they were not fundamentally the same. One was a software manufacturer that licenses its software to hardware vendors and demanded concessions. The other an integrated hardware and software vendor that offers an opt-in experience almost across its entire product line. See the difference?

Don’t see the difference between one licensing it’s software to hardware manufacturers to bundle it with their machines and the other licensing it’s software to users and for digital services to bundle it with their App. In abstract either way opting in can be argued.

Yet, like with Windows, in iOS, Android, macOS or any other dominant platform, serving customers is not an option to any business … digital services is no exception. It’s the customer that choose the device or OS. So they will service them on that device or OS if enough customers demand it to stay competitive. It’s fundamentally by that virtue that revenue share is granted as far as digital services are concerned. It’s the same kind of powered being winged: “Your customers are using devices and or OS built by us, our platform”

Still not even MS was demanding revenue shares much less at 30% to license its software. As I remember is a fixed retail price with volume discounts. The power of vertical integration and proxying competition leads to this kind of absurds leading to tremendous App Store profit margins and over the board costs for customers including lost control over their properties. Leads to taxing value generated by others.

You said it your self. Fundamentally people aren’t buying these devices because of the embedded App Store but because it can ran very well all sorts of useful apps and digital services … like personal computers ….

In this evolution of the App Stores, fundamentally I haven’t read anything that Apple could not have its App Store in the proposals. It’s just opening conditions that third parties can still freely and without limitations directly represent themselves in the promotion and sale in their properties all the way, case in case, their Apps. Optionally use App Stores for that matter. Now it could be argued that sideloading as defined is unnecessary for that matter, I agree. But it seams that the dialog is not peaceful and objective for that to happen.

Instead we have the owners and their proponents of these App Stores arguing that either they are their agent (agency model) for their software programs or the future is a security chaos. Which does not look like an attitude of good faith towards businesses or customers in my opinion.
 
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