Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
MarkCollette said:
Hmm, I wonder if we'll get to the point where the consumers just have notebooks, and maybe a docking station kind of setup, with larger monitors, printers, etc. And then only pros would use desktops.

We've just reached the point where the majority of new computer sales are notebooks, not desktops, and the lowest end new notebooks can do all basic tasks, and with good expansion like FW and USB 2 we have have all expansion external... I wonder if and when.

I know professors who do just that, because they can keep a flat panel, a firewire drive, and their printer in their office, while still being able to carry the lecture slides on their laptop. It also means they can take their work home that much easier, and that's important in some departments.
 
Sorry, admins. This is a broken-up post because I screwed up and had three different tabs going, and it's after work. I'm a bit tired. :rolleyes:

jsw said:
And good point about quality parts. My 4.5-year-old laptop works admirably well even after constant use. Even my ancient IIci works fine. Apple builds computers to last. PC makers build computers to just make it until the next speed bump comes out.

I had an original iBook Tangerine that last me until it died, somewhat unceremoniously, this past Christmas. It had a fully functional, unblemished LCD, and all the original parts, with the exception of a 256 MB stick of RAM. It was my portable for quite some time, and it wasn't until it was accidentally crushed (LONG story) that it ever had a problem.

Then it had all kinds of problems, from broken frame to shattered screen. At least I got a 600 iBook with a Combo, though, so it worked out alright. :rolleyes:

xy14 said:
Apple is not going to upgrade their eMacs. They are going to discontinue them because they are making the iMacs lose profits. They are probably going to upgrade the iMacs though because it would be horrible if they discontinued them (not everyone wants to pay $1799 for a Mac).

Does this completely fail to make sense for anyone else? They're going to kill the eMac to spare the iMac, but it's because the iMac is too expensive? How does updating the machines make them any less expensive, since new components are almost certainly going to cost more?
 
jsw said:
And good point about quality parts. My 4.5-year-old laptop works admirably well even after constant use. Even my ancient IIci works fine. Apple builds computers to last. PC makers build computers to just make it until the next speed bump comes out.

I'm not disputing that Macs are generally well-built and are made from quality components (I have an LCII and a Quadra 610 which still work perfectly), but don't confuse the more frequent upgrade cycle of PC owners with the reliability of their machines. In addition to those two old Macs I have at home, I also have a Celeron 500MHz system and a Pentium 166MMX box, both of which are still running fine. Just this morning, I was using a piece of equipment in the laboratory where I work, and it was connected to an old 66MHz 486 system, complete with 1x SCSI caddy loading CD-ROM drive. Old PCs are everywhere.

PCs last and last too...and in fact, apart from the CPU and motherboards, the components in Apple's systems and just about any PC system are the same...RAM from Crucial, hard drive from Seagate, video card from ATI or nVidia, SuperDrive from Pioneer, connectors from Molex...the list goes on. PowerBooks and iBooks are just made under contract in the same Compal factory in Taiwan as many x86 notebooks are manufactured in.

Apple generally has a slower rate of product releases than does the enormous x86 market. And that's to be expected...how can one company have a product cycle to compete with literally thousands of different vendors, when that one company has to do much of their own R&D by themselves? PC owners upgrade more regularly becuase they can, and because PCs are cheaper than Apples. If you bought a 1GHz G4 15" TiBook 12 months ago, what are you going to upgrade to? A 1GHz G5 15" AlBook? Same with the eMac spec...it hasn't shifted since it was introduced in May last year. What is an eMac owner going to upgrade to from their May 2003 1GHz eMac? "I'll have another 1GHz eMac thanks!!!". The product release wheel turns slowly at Apple.

Slower product cycles, higher costs of upgrading (not to mention the lack of the *enormous* x86 market in 3rd party upgrade components), and dare I say it, a generally lower level of tech-savvyness (I'm gonna get hit for saying that) are more responsible for the perceived 'longer life span' of Macs over x86 boxes...rather than any real intrinsic physical longevity advantage.

OK! That should get the thread moving along again!
 
thatwendigo said:
Does this completely fail to make sense for anyone else? They're going to kill the eMac to spare the iMac, but it's because the iMac is too expensive? How does updating the machines make them any less expensive, since new components are almost certainly going to cost more?

The computer industry doesn't work that way. New components that cost the same as the components that you bought this time last year will be faster and have more features. The same component you bought last year will now be cheaper. Knowing this, you can do one of three things: 1) keep the product price the same, but upgrade all the components periodically and end up with a better product, or 2) keep including all the same components from last year, but drop the price of the product, or 3) keep buying the same old components from last year at every decreasing wholesale prices, but keep charging the same amount for the finished product.

But I agree...the original post didn't make a whole lot of sense either :)
 
oingoboingo said:
Slower product cycles, higher costs of upgrading (not to mention the lack of the *enormous* x86 market in 3rd party upgrade components), and dare I say it, a generally lower level of tech-savvyness (I'm gonna get hit for saying that) are more responsible for the perceived 'longer life span' of Macs over x86 boxes...rather than any real intrinsic physical longevity advantage.

I have no argument with most of what you have to say, man. I just thought I'd be the first to hit you for that comment... :D

See, I do a lot, and I do mean an awful lot, of tech support for people I know who are completely clueless about computers. The vast majority of people I have to help are PC users, but that's probably due more to population size than an inherent knoweldge on the part of mac users. Then again, almost all the mac users I know can do their own troubleshooting and repair work, short of something that will void the warranty.

oingoboingo said:
The computer industry doesn't work that way. New components that cost the same as the components that you bought this time last year will be faster and have more features. The same component you bought last year will now be cheaper. Knowing this, you can do one of three things: 1) keep the product price the same, but upgrade all the components periodically and end up with a better product, or 2) keep including all the same components from last year, but drop the price of the product, or 3) keep buying the same old components from last year at every decreasing wholesale prices, but keep charging the same amount for the finished product.

But I agree...the original post didn't make a whole lot of sense either :)

I don't know if that's as true in the Mac market as it is outside of it, though. We have a limited number of suppliers, and they're all too happy to milk us as hard as they can, whether through the parts in new machines or on the upgrade market. I could have eBayed another iBook for what a G4 upgrade card costs, just to name a particular problem. At least we can use more an more of the non-Processor, non-motherboard, non-graphics card devices...
 
thatwendigo said:
I don't know if that's as true in the Mac market as it is outside of it, though. We have a limited number of suppliers, and they're all too happy to milk us as hard as they can, whether through the parts in new machines or on the upgrade market. I could have eBayed another iBook for what a G4 upgrade card costs, just to name a particular problem. At least we can use more an more of the non-Processor, non-motherboard, non-graphics card devices...

We certainly get screwed harder than x86 users on CPU upgrades. But then again, companies like Sonnet and PowerLogix do have to do quite a bit of engineering to produce upgrade kits at all, in some instances. There really isn't the mass market equivalent in the PowerPC CPU world like there is in the Intel/AMD camp. Imagine just being able to walk into the local computer store and pick up a 1.45GHz G4 CPU, all nicely packaged up for retail sale like an AMD Athlon XP...and all for $125. Hopefully the adoption of the PowerPC 970 into the Xbox2 and in IBM's blade servers means that we can expect to see some real economies of scale build up there...as long as some upgrade company figures out how to produce a G5 CPU upgrade daughtercard.

In terms of graphics chips though, I think Apple really has as much choice as the PC world in what it decides to go with. If you tally up all the ATI and nVidia GPU variants which have been used at one stage or another in Macintoshs, you come up with quite an impressive list...with drivers to go with them. Apple should be able to buy those GPUs for the same per-1000 price that HP, Dell, Gateway, IBM etc can. Sometimes you see a really good GPU bundling decision being made, like the Radeon 9600 Mobility in the 15" and 17" PowerBooks (top of the line in mobile GPUs at the time). But other times you really have to wonder what is going on behind the scenes at Apple's purchasing and engineering departments (the infamous Radeon 7500 in the eMac, and the liberal use of the cheap, entry-level nVidia GeForce FX5200 in many other product lines, including 66% of the G5 line!). Maybe Apple doesn't have good relationships with either ATI or nVidia...has Steve pissed someone off one too many times? Who knows...

As you say though, for hard drives, RAM, optical drives, USB and FireWire devices and many PCI cards, Mac users can (mercifully) piggy back off x86 economies of scale. And there are plenty of PC users out there who don't realise that.
 
thatwendigo said:
How are you figuring that? Where are you applying that 20%?
the style tax...also known as the Apple premium.

Well the powerbooks are about 10-20% more expensive than equivalent Centrino notebooks..... For me in the relm of possibility and there are significant advantages to an Apple portable over a PC one (wireless networking, bluetooth, and very similar to desktop performance because of Motorola's slcking on the g4 chips)

But on the consumer desktops the premium is much higher, and that is why I would pick a PC. Because for my $1500 I cold get a bigger monitor, or more hard drive space, a faster processor and a better DVD burner. C'est la vie, unfortunately for Apple, a lot more people think like me.
 
oingoboingo said:
Slower product cycles, higher costs of upgrading (not to mention the lack of the *enormous* x86 market in 3rd party upgrade components), and dare I say it, a generally lower level of tech-savvyness (I'm gonna get hit for saying that) are more responsible for the perceived 'longer life span' of Macs over x86 boxes...rather than any real intrinsic physical longevity advantage.

OK! That should get the thread moving along again!

Actually the biggest reason that Apple computers have such a long life span (besided the slow updates) is Apple continues to support old school hardware on new OSes.

Windows XP runs horrible, if at all on a five year old PC. (And I hop you upgraded the motherboard, hard drive processor and RAM on that PC for it to even think about it running.)

Panther runs on 5 year old macs! And there was an appreciable speed boost going from 10.0-10.1-10.2-10.3 on that same hardware. If there is any incentive to keep an old computer around it is that...I can run the latest Apple OS X on an old school g3.

No need to buy a new one yet, unless you heavilty rely on imovie or wanna upgrade you FCP.

At this rate the B&W g3s will be running 10.5...and no one but the speed cravers will need a new computer.
 
oingoboingo said:
I'm not disputing that Macs are generally well-built and are made from quality components (I have an LCII and a Quadra 610 which still work perfectly), but don't confuse the more frequent upgrade cycle of PC owners with the reliability of their machines. In addition to those two old Macs I have at home, I also have a Celeron 500MHz system and a Pentium 166MMX box, both of which are still running fine. Just this morning, I was using a piece of equipment in the laboratory where I work, and it was connected to an old 66MHz 486 system, complete with 1x SCSI caddy loading CD-ROM drive. Old PCs are everywhere.

PCs last and last too...and in fact, apart from the CPU and motherboards, the components in Apple's systems and just about any PC system are the same...RAM from Crucial, hard drive from Seagate, video card from ATI or nVidia, SuperDrive from Pioneer, connectors from Molex...the list goes on. PowerBooks and iBooks are just made under contract in the same Compal factory in Taiwan as many x86 notebooks are manufactured in.

Apple generally has a slower rate of product releases than does the enormous x86 market. And that's to be expected...how can one company have a product cycle to compete with literally thousands of different vendors, when that one company has to do much of their own R&D by themselves? PC owners upgrade more regularly becuase they can, and because PCs are cheaper than Apples. If you bought a 1GHz G4 15" TiBook 12 months ago, what are you going to upgrade to? A 1GHz G5 15" AlBook? Same with the eMac spec...it hasn't shifted since it was introduced in May last year. What is an eMac owner going to upgrade to from their May 2003 1GHz eMac? "I'll have another 1GHz eMac thanks!!!". The product release wheel turns slowly at Apple.

Slower product cycles, higher costs of upgrading (not to mention the lack of the *enormous* x86 market in 3rd party upgrade components), and dare I say it, a generally lower level of tech-savvyness (I'm gonna get hit for saying that) are more responsible for the perceived 'longer life span' of Macs over x86 boxes...rather than any real intrinsic physical longevity advantage.

OK! That should get the thread moving along again!
Boy, have you stated the truth. there are only 2 things Apple has going for it, the OS and wrapping all those parts you mentioned into fancy clothes such as Imac. other then that they use for the most part the same stuff as better quality Pcs. I really dont know what is going on with Apple but it wouldnt surprise me a bit to see another round of G4 bumps in evey G4 product. Apple is very stingy in giving out Hardware. Ill wait for awhile but Alienware is looking so good with a AMD inside. Sure Id like a G5 Imac but heck it may only come in 1.6 and may be another 6 months from now. Like I said earlier Moto has had G4s running at 1.4,1.47 and now 1.5. who's to say if the next Imac/Emac just get the bump. More I think about it the more logical this seems. Perhaps G5 Imac will be next year?
 
Dont Hurt Me said:
Boy, have you stated the truth. there are only 2 things Apple has going for it, the OS and wrapping all those parts you mentioned into fancy clothes such as Imac. other then that they use for the most part the same stuff as better quality Pcs. I really dont know what is going on with Apple but it wouldnt surprise me a bit to see another round of G4 bumps in evey G4 product. Apple is very stingy in giving out Hardware. Ill wait for awhile but Alienware is looking so good with a AMD inside. Sure Id like a G5 Imac but heck it may only come in 1.6 and may be another 6 months from now. Like I said earlier Moto has had G4s running at 1.4,1.47 and now 1.5. who's to say if the next Imac/Emac just get the bump. More I think about it the more logical this seems. Perhaps G5 Imac will be next year?

We must be getting close to a release, if we're already in the phase of dispair :)

We're all pretty sure that the iBook will stick with the G4, so let's take bets on whether the eMac and the iMac do too :)

I'm betting that the eMac will stick with G4 for another bump, but the iMac (or whatever replaces it) will go to G5. Why? Hell, why not? It wouldn't be an Apple release if it didn't carefully blend exciting new things with a touch of disappointment.
 
jade said:
Well the powerbooks are about 10-20% more expensive than equivalent Centrino notebooks..... For me in the relm of possibility and there are significant advantages to an Apple portable over a PC one (wireless networking, bluetooth, and very similar to desktop performance because of Motorola's slcking on the g4 chips)

I think we have different ideas of equivalent, and definitely different values on the use of the operating system. I'd pay 20% more just to use OS X in an ugly machine, and more than that for the elegant, well-constructed machines that I've had for quite some time. In twenty years of macintosh use, I've never had to take one to a dealer to have it fixed, and I'm not an IT professional that has any kind of special link to repair manuals.

Of course, I've already gone on about how I want the 750vx to replace the G4 in the PowerBooks. To me, that's the best solution, because it runs at a better clock, a better FSB, and yet puts out the same or less heat. How can we lose, especially with IBM doing the fabbing and selling them more cheaply than G4s?

But on the consumer desktops the premium is much higher, and that is why I would pick a PC. Because for my $1500 I cold get a bigger monitor, or more hard drive space, a faster processor and a better DVD burner. C'est la vie, unfortunately for Apple, a lot more people think like me.

Yes, it is unfortunate, because you can have all the components you want, but if the system has to be replaced every two to three years just to be functional on the current incarnation of the OS, then it's not a value. We still use, actively, macs that are five or six years old. They run OS X just fine, if given a simple RAM upgrade.

I don't know a single person on the PC side who uses their computers as actively as my family does, yet has the same hardware retention rate.

Dont Hurt Me said:
Boy, have you stated the truth. there are only 2 things Apple has going for it, the OS and wrapping all those parts you mentioned into fancy clothes such as Imac.

Actually, there are a couple of things they have going for them, and they're on both sides of the hardware/software divide. They've got a quality that surpasses anything I see in PCs (I'd ask anyone who wants to bring up the iBooks, to keep in mind that the suit is 3,000 out of some 250,000-300,000 sold. Take a look at Dell's mistake rate.). They've got control of the OS and its integration, while also supporting the open source community in a way that no other major PC manufacturer does. There's a suite of powerful, easy, user-friendly apps that come with every new mac, and they go far beyond the negligably "comparable" offerings on the PC side. They have Jonathan Ives and Steve Jobs, who continue to push the industry in ways that are always emulated, no matter how much people like to say that innovation is dead at Apple. Let's not leave out the small factor of a partnership with the single largest, longest-lived computing company in the history of the field, who just happens to be supplying us with some of the fastest chips on the market.

Oh, yeah... Nothing at all, DHM. :rolleyes:

other then that they use for the most part the same stuff as better quality Pcs.

What the hell, man? First you complain about their components, and now you say that they use the same parts as "better quality Pcs?" Can you at least maintain some degree of consistency in what you're going to whine about?

Apple is very stingy in giving out Hardware.

Name me one company, other than IBM, that does as much of their own R&D and design work as Apple. Name one that uses parts as specialized and limited, by comparison, as the PowerPC, while still being competitive.

Stingy? Only if you have no understanding of economics.

Ill wait for awhile but Alienware is looking so good with a AMD inside. Sure Id like a G5 Imac but heck it may only come in 1.6 and may be another 6 months from now. Like I said earlier Moto has had G4s running at 1.4,1.47 and now 1.5. who's to say if the next Imac/Emac just get the bump. More I think about it the more logical this seems. Perhaps G5 Imac will be next year?

So get an Alienware, which won't cost you any less than a G5 and will perform right around the same level. I honestly don't understand you, DHM, because you constantly whine and gripe about everything Apple does, but you don't do the one thing that really matters. In business, you vote with your dollars. Want Apple to change their ways? Then go buy the competition and quit cluttering the board with your poorly reasoned, illogical screeds, because you don't even grasp the simplest aspects of the computer industry.
 
thatwendigo said:
I think we have different ideas of equivalent, and definitely different values on the use of the operating system. I'd pay 20% more just to use OS X in an ugly machine, and more than that for the elegant, well-constructed machines that I've had for quite some time. In twenty years of macintosh use, I've never had to take one to a dealer to have it fixed, and I'm not an IT professional that has any kind of special link to repair manuals.

Of course, I've already gone on about how I want the 750vx to replace the G4 in the PowerBooks. To me, that's the best solution, because it runs at a better clock, a better FSB, and yet puts out the same or less heat. How can we lose, especially with IBM doing the fabbing and selling them more cheaply than G4s?



Yes, it is unfortunate, because you can have all the components you want, but if the system has to be replaced every two to three years just to be functional on the current incarnation of the OS, then it's not a value. We still use, actively, macs that are five or six years old. They run OS X just fine, if given a simple RAM upgrade.

I don't know a single person on the PC side who uses their computers as actively as my family does, yet has the same hardware retention rate.



Actually, there are a couple of things they have going for them, and they're on both sides of the hardware/software divide. They've got a quality that surpasses anything I see in PCs (I'd ask anyone who wants to bring up the iBooks, to keep in mind that the suit is 3,000 out of some 250,000-300,000 sold. Take a look at Dell's mistake rate.). They've got control of the OS and its integration, while also supporting the open source community in a way that no other major PC manufacturer does. There's a suite of powerful, easy, user-friendly apps that come with every new mac, and they go far beyond the negligably "comparable" offerings on the PC side. They have Jonathan Ives and Steve Jobs, who continue to push the industry in ways that are always emulated, no matter how much people like to say that innovation is dead at Apple. Let's not leave out the small factor of a partnership with the single largest, longest-lived computing company in the history of the field, who just happens to be supplying us with some of the fastest chips on the market.

Oh, yeah... Nothing at all, DHM. :rolleyes:



What the hell, man? First you complain about their components, and now you say that they use the same parts as "better quality Pcs?" Can you at least maintain some degree of consistency in what you're going to whine about?



Name me one company, other than IBM, that does as much of their own R&D and design work as Apple. Name one that uses parts as specialized and limited, by comparison, as the PowerPC, while still being competitive.

Stingy? Only if you have no understanding of economics.



So get an Alienware, which won't cost you any less than a G5 and will perform right around the same level. I honestly don't understand you, DHM, because you constantly whine and gripe about everything Apple does, but you don't do the one thing that really matters. In business, you vote with your dollars. Want Apple to change their ways? Then go buy the competition and quit cluttering the board with your poorly reasoned, illogical screeds, because you don't even grasp the simplest aspects of the computer industry.
Actually Alienware will perform better then the G5s and cost a lot less. Alienware smokes the Mac in all gaming benches and wins in a few others. looses a few by a few seconds like photoshop( who could give a )
Thatwendigo you have to wake up, a hard drive is a hard drive just as a video card is a video card same goes for memory. none of them are made by Apple. even the CPU isnt made by Apple so stop being Blinded like everything Apple does is coming from heaven, most of the time they come from the same manufactors except you will be charge a big premium because its going inside a Mac. Some of you Mac Zealots are so blinded by your own Pride in Apple you dont realize that Apple is selling you Hardware from last year and charging you more for your Mac Fanaticism. Its that simple. Apple screws you hard for the Hardware just as they did 10 years ago. nothing new same old Apple.
 
Incidentally... The Baseline Alienware Aurora uses the *gasp* GeForce FX 5200 that you're so against, DHM. How terrible of Apple to use the same chip as a major gaming shop!

Alienware Aurora
Athlon 64 3400+
1 GB PC3200 RAM
ATI Radeon 9600 XT 128MB
160GB Seagate 7200RPM SATA
Plextor PlexWriter 8x DVD+/-RW
Creative SoundBlaster Audigy 2
NEC 20" MultiSync LCD
Logitech Z-680
Cost: $3,828

Apple PowerMAc
Dual G5 1.8ghz
1 GB PC3200 RAM
ATI Radeon 9600 Pro
160 GB 7200RPM SATA
SuperDrive
20" Apple Cinema Display
Logitech Z-680
Cost: $4,341

It's not quite so big a difference as you'd like to make out, man.
 
The $1500 dollar machine uses the baseline fx5200 but guess what? the Pc version has 128 mb of ram in it vs the 64 mb in the Mac. And the 1.6 G5 cost hundreds more and the single 1.8 G5 lost every test compared to the Alienware in Mac Worlds Tests. Notice all those Mac versions of video cards are behind by 1 generation. Also Apple will sell you a 9600 pro(64) for $50.00 while Alienware will sell you the 9600XT(128) for $30.00 I dont know how much longer i can be a Mac Bitch.
 
Dont Hurt Me said:
Actually Alienware will perform better then the G5s and cost a lot less. Alienware smokes the Mac in all gaming benches and wins in a few others.

Incorrect, sir.

According to this, the P4 is about the same as the Athlon 64 3400+ that is in the system I specced out. There's no smoking to be had, so it seems that you're arguing from a position of ignorance once again.

Thatwendigo you have to wake up, a hard drive is a hard drive just as a video card is a video card same goes for memory. none of them are made by Apple. even the CPU isnt made by Apple so stop being Blinded like everything Apple does is coming from heaven,

Ah, so we're back to the attempts to label me as some kind of unthinking Apple worshipper, are we? I think that the established record of argument is one my side, DHM, and you know it. Apple isn't perfect, and I've never said that they are, and I'm certainly not stupid enough to make the kind of mistake that you're trying to pin on me.

Yes, certain components are down to the commodity level, and they're also the ones that tend to be cheapest in any case. What I can't seem to hammer through your skull, though, is that some of the priciest parts are still custom-manufactured for Apple, and that's going to raise the price. Processors, motherboards, ASICS, and graphics cards tend to be the worst parts of the system, in terms of he wallet, and so it's just doubly damning that we have to live with it.

Maybe you need to take a basic course in economics, because I knew this stuff a long time before highschool tried to teach it to me again.

most of the time they come from the same manufactors except you will be charge a big premium because its going inside a Mac

Of course, it has nothing with redesigning the cards to accept an ADC jack, or hiring programmers to write the derivers, or the limited production runs of Apple-specific parts, or the much more limited profit ceiling that one has unless the suppliers also push ridiculous margins... :rolleyes:


. Some of you Mac Zealots are so blinded by your own Pride in Apple you dont realize that Apple is selling you Hardware from last year and charging you more for your Mac Fanaticism. Its that simple. Apple screws you hard for the Hardware just as they did 10 years ago. nothing new same old Apple.

So GO. Jesus, DHM, if it worries you that much that you don't understand my arguments, then buy your AMD and be happy. If you think that it's so much better, then spend the cash and quit trying to peddle your poor arguments and even poorer English skills. We're not zealots, but we do think on our own, and we have evidence on our side.

Where's the backing for you claims?

Dont Hurt Me said:
The $1500 dollar machine uses the baseline fx5200 but guess what? the Pc version has 128 mb of ram in it vs the 64 mb in the Mac. And the 1.6 G5 cost hundreds more and the single 1.8 G5 lost every test compared to the Alienware in Mac Worlds Tests. Notice all those Mac versions of video cards are behind by 1 generation. Also Apple will sell you a 9600 pro(64) for $50.00 while Alienware will sell you the 9600XT(128) for $30.00 I dont know how much longer i can be a Mac Bitch.

You know, I was going to blow this off, but I had to comment again, because you're outright lying again. They'll sell you a Radeon 9600XT for $30 more than whatever they charge you already, not just for that amount. You have a real problem with reading comprehension, and you never back anything you say with hard numbers or sources.

I don't know why I keep responding, aside from maintaining some vague hope that I can provide a voice of reason against your rants.
 
you are worse then a politician in a businessmans pocket, apple will sell you a 9600pro (64) for 50 bucks more then the 5200, Alienware will sell you 9600xt for $30 more bucks then fx5200. Please correct your lies. you mentioned P4 but never the clock? why? the Fact is a single AMD fx51 2.2 is matching and or winning in benches against the Dual G5s.
Look at Dec issue Mac world. Stop the smoke and mirrors thatwendigo. the single G5 at 1.8 lost every test. not any test was the 1 G5 matching the 1 AMD or Intel.
Now if you want to talk gaming UT2003 is running near 300 while dual G5s are in the 70s. that 200 FPS difference.
Im not going to sit here and argue anymore to the Blind. the fact is Mac Hardware is way behind except for the 2 top dual G5 machines and those arent faster only faster in a few chosen Tests that favor the Mac. Instead of Spin,Smoke and Mirrors thatwendigo I suggest you subscribe to a few publications such as MacAddict or MacWorld and educate yourself. Macs still have the best OS and the slowest Hardware. The latest Tests show without a doubt that only the dual G5s are even in the game.
 

Attachments

  • Mac world.jpg
    Mac world.jpg
    25.3 KB · Views: 116
thatwendigo said:
Does this completely fail to make sense for anyone else? They're going to kill the eMac to spare the iMac, but it's because the iMac is too expensive? How does updating the machines make them any less expensive, since new components are almost certainly going to cost more?

I meant that if they got rid of the iMac & eMac that people wouldn't want to buy a G5 or a notebook to have a Mac.
 
Dont Hurt Me said:
blah...why? the Fact is a single AMD fx51 2.2 is matching and or winning... blah...Now if you want to talk gaming UT2003 is running near 300 while dual G5s are in the 70s...blah...dual G5 machines and those arent faster only faster in a few chosen Tests...blah...I suggest you subscribe to a few publications such as MacAddict or MacWorld ...blah... only the dual G5s are even in the game.

Well, if speed is all you care about, I more or less grant your posts. Who cares? Speed is only one part. Yeah, faster is better. But I still take OS X over XP (granting that XP is a lot better than 2K, 9x, etc.). I can do most of my work on a 4.5 year old 400 MHz G3.

I'd love to see a faster system offered by Apple - and we will. My G5 works fine for me, though. My 800Mhz G4 iMac does most everything just as well. My G3 Lombard does 50% of it fine. So, yeah, PCs are faster and/or cheaper and it'd be great to have faster Macs.

But the current choices are fine. No one disputes that it's better - of course - to have faster systems. But you're wrong to say that what's out there is in any way deficient or useless or whatever.

Apple needs to put out updates and/or revolutionary changes. But what they have now - and in particular I mean OS X on any selling Mac - is fantastic.
 
jade said:
Actually the biggest reason that Apple computers have such a long life span (besided the slow updates) is Apple continues to support old school hardware on new OSes.

Absolutely.

PCs need to be faster. Macs are just better if they're faster.
 
jsw said:
Absolutely.

PCs need to be faster. Macs are just better if they're faster.

and mac users have no reaon to update their computers which hampers slaes
 
Dont Hurt Me said:
Blahblahblahblah...Complete misunderstanding of anything and everything said to DHM


Did I ever say anything about single G5s? No? Then stop harping on them.

Address my points and stop trying to twist my words.
 
jsw said:
Absolutely.

PCs need to be faster. Macs are just better if they're faster.

This is a good point. It seems like every time a new version of Windows is released, the minimum system requiremenets is increased as well, the size of code increases enormously, and the OS overall runs slower. A PC which could run Win95 in the day perfectly fine could not handle WinXP. However, you look at OSX, especially Panther, and what do you get? An OS that runs on older hardware just fine, is not bloatware, and it actually makes your system FASTER. Wow, what a novel concept for an OS... ;)

Speed is just one factor. Argue over it all you want - years from now your arguments will be futile, and people will laugh at you for arguing over what a difference a paultry GHz makes. (I'm sure similar arguments were waged over 200 MHz Pentiums vs. 233 MHz Pentiums.) You'll never win when you play the speed game - I'd rather take a well-balanced approach and look at many other factors such as ease of use, stability, software, OS, etc. etc. That's just me though... :cool:
 
If Speed isnt a factor and Apple has the Best OS on the planet then why are sales declining every qtr for Imac/Emac? why is it they sold millions of Imac crt but emac/Imac lcd only sell in the thousands? why are these 2 models sales combine only about the same as the pro models when consumers outnumber pro's 100-1? why is Apples marketshare almost at 1%? whats one thing every mac hasnt had compared to the otherside? thats right boys & girls. its called Speed. you get little bang for big bucks and this is why even with Apple being holier then thou sales are tumbling down. you cant sell slow computers forever. G4 is anything but fast
 
Dont Hurt Me said:
If Speed isnt a factor and Apple has the Best OS on the planet then why are sales declining every qtr for Imac/Emac?

I dunno - because of people like you? :cool:


Seriously, you are correct on that point - iMac/eMac slaes are declining, and the G4 is not the fastest chip out there now that there is the G5. So what would the appropriate parallel to this be? Pentium 4s vs. Celerons? How about in the AMD world, with these new chips you've been heralding? Those chips still have their place and sell, don't they? (Not saying the iMac doesn't need a G5 - that will be a nice update when it happens :) )

Dont Hurt Me said:
whats one thing every mac hasnt had compared to the otherside? thats right boys & girls. its called Speed. you get little bang for big bucks and this is why even with Apple being holier then thou sales are tumbling down.

Perhaps a more accurate reason why sales are tumbling down is because people put an incorrect, inappropriate and misguided importance and weighting into speed. But alas, this is the way the majority of the population thinks - hmm, 95% I suppose, the equivalent of PC marketshare? Nah, less than that, there are intelligent PC users on these forums as well... ;) But, if I go any further, this is going to open up a whole new can of worms, so I'll just stop for now...

In conclusion, of course more speed is better - that's a simple fact. When the 12 GHz G7 is out, people will be whining about when the 14 GHz speed bumps will come out, and how AMD just released a 12.5 GHz chip. And so it continues. My point is that speed shouldn't be the only factor one focuses all his attention on.
 
All iam getting at is G4 was not much more then a G3 with altivec added. How many years ago was G3 intoduced?5-6? so we have Apple selling G3s with altivec today at low clocks. Then they charge a fortune for them. this has nearly killed this computer company. a correct analogy would be if Intel was still selling P3s and clocking them at about 1 gig. how many Pc users would even consider this as a option? In our Mac world this is what we have except for last summers G5s. G3s with altivec still in most machines.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.