Epic Games Aiming to Recruit 'Coalition of Apple Critics' to Fight App Store Policies

[Coconut Bean]

If you give more money to entitled management, they will take it for themselves. Look at the Pentagon: When more money is ladled on the MIC, we don't get better weapons and programs, we get more expensive weapons and programs.

Of course. In case you must choose how you divide that 30%. Would you say Apple deserves all of it? I see why Apple gets it now, it's a monopoly (maybe duopoly with Google), arguably because of previous innovations and massive consolidations. I think we can agree on monopoly in the long run doesn't benefit anyone other than the company and the stock price.

30% of $9.95 must be one hell of a lot of money, large enough to risk your company on. He's playing chicken with all of the employees of his company, and all of the people that have purchased their products. Driving into a bridge abutment might make a statement, but at a huge cost. Maybe they have overplayed their hand. It depends how activist the judge(s) might be.

It's not about Fortnite and IAP payments. It's about the future of Epic Game store, something that they want to get in on iOS, obviously, with more beneficial terms. I would say Apple will change their stance (although it will take a year or two). They have nothing to compete with on cloud gaming side and while their hardware is top notch and gives them a big advantage on mobile gaming, it won't matter for those applications.

 

[pasamio]

Of course. In case you must choose how you divide that 30%. Would you say Apple deserves all of it? I see why Apple gets it now, it's a monopoly (maybe duopoly with Google), arguably because of previous innovations and massive consolidations. I think we can agree on monopoly in the long run doesn't benefit anyone other than the company and the stock price.

Apple barely has a majority marketshare of smartphone devices in the US and globally a much smaller number, it's far from a monopoly though one could easily see a duopoly with Google. The problem is that unless Apple and Google are colluding with each other or interfering with other parties, there isn't a problem. Apple near as is documented hasn't colluded with Google on anything but a COVID tracker and Apple hasn't been shown to interfere with other parties. Google has been shown to interfere with it's OEM's though around Fortnite and as it does have a monopoly on the smartphone operating system market via Android (as one can't license iOS to put on their device), I expect this case to have much more force.

It's not about Fortnite and IAP payments. It's about the future of Epic Game store, something that they want to get in on iOS, obviously, with more beneficial terms. I would say Apple will change their stance (although it will take a year or two). They have nothing to compete with on cloud gaming side and while their hardware is top notch and gives them a big advantage on mobile gaming, it won't matter for those applications.

If it is all about streaming then why bother about getting your own store with the ability to install and access low level operating system functionality? Epic clearly think that there is something to be had there more than streaming. Microsoft are pushing for xCloud and it'll be interesting to see if Apple come to some sort of mutual approval system to allow it to go forward perhaps with some sort of revenue sharing arrangement. It'll be interesting if Microsoft opts into such an approach or if they just leave iOS behind.

 

[Coconut Bean]

Apple barely has a majority marketshare of smartphone devices in the US and globally a much smaller number, it's far from a monopoly though one could easily see a duopoly with Google. The problem is that unless Apple and Google are colluding with each other or interfering with other parties, there isn't a problem. Apple near as is documented hasn't colluded with Google on anything but a COVID tracker and Apple hasn't been shown to interfere with other parties. Google has been shown to interfere with it's OEM's though around Fortnite and as it does have a monopoly on the smartphone operating system market via Android (as one can't license iOS to put on their device), I expect this case to have much more force.

I wouldn't say there isn't a problem.. just reading about antitrust laws Apple (and Google) ticks the box on many abuse of power parts. I wouldn't expect the us the make the first ruling, but the EU might. Imho offering an app store should be considered ok, but the way payments are bundled with it is definitely anti-competitive.

If it is all about streaming then why bother about getting your own store with the ability to install and access low level operating system functionality? Epic clearly think that there is something to be had there more than streaming. Microsoft are pushing for xCloud and it'll be interesting to see if Apple come to some sort of mutual approval system to allow it to go forward perhaps with some sort of revenue sharing arrangement. It'll be interesting if Microsoft opts into such an approach or if they just leave iOS behind.

For Epic it wouldn't matter if they can access low level or not. They just want bigger piece of the cookie.

Indeed it will be interesting to see. I hope regulators will go after the bundling and enforcing part of payment services.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

It's not about Fortnite and IAP payments. It's about the future of Epic Game store, something that they want to get in on iOS, obviously, with more beneficial terms. I would say Apple will change their stance (although it will take a year or two). They have nothing to compete with on cloud gaming side and while their hardware is top notch and gives them a big advantage on mobile gaming, it won't matter for those applications.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the stance of Apple, but they are basically saying that you can't take your own subscription money on an app from the app store. SO lets look at the money here.

Epic was charging $9.95 ON AN APP IN APPLE'S APP STORE, they were charging $7.95 direct.

Epic would get $6.97 for everyone that pays through the Apple App Store, and their in-app payment system. That's a difference of one penny less than a dollar! They are throwing a fit over NINETY NINE CENTS! So they risk getting ZERO for their little stunt. If Apple was getting enough to make Epic's share cut more than $2.00, I'd be upset too. But for $0.99? Really? If they were in operation when you sold real product, boxes and real CD's, it wasn't unheard of for some resellers to 'rent' shelf space and PAY to be shelved in the front, with BIG BANNERS announcing your wares. It's probably a good thing they can just sit on their butts and have suckers sign up and drop their money into the cloud. They would probably lose their poop if they had to pay the software chains to get better positioning on their shelves.

All of this is about 99 cents? Good grief!!!

And now Microstuff is piling on? Apple and Googles biggest competitor? Cute... And the kids hooked on their games are pawns. Sad...

$.99...

 

[pasamio]

I wouldn't say there isn't a problem.. just reading about antitrust laws Apple (and Google) ticks the box on many abuse of power parts. I wouldn't expect the us the make the first ruling, but the EU might. Imho offering an app store should be considered ok, but the way payments are bundled with it is definitely anti-competitive.

The EU have a habit of fining US companies and I'd absolutely expect them to move first. I don't see this particular case as going in Epic's favour but it doesn't mean that in the future the DOJ doesn't bring their own investigation.

For Epic it wouldn't matter if they can access low level or not. They just want bigger piece of the cookie.

Epic's emails to Apple specifically called out access to the low level to be able to install and update applications without being beholden to the normal sandbox that iOS applications are generally limited. To be an effective third party App Store, you need to have access to install and update the apps which is why I suspect Epic specifically called them out.

 

[mani]

And Apple uses their own payment system on Google Play for Apple Music. Just like some other stores they have agreements. Nintendo and MS agreed to let their gamers play against each other. All just like the exclusivity deals on the Epic Store.

but isn't this the exact same issue here?

 

[pacalis]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the stance of Apple, but they are basically saying that you can't take your own subscription money on an app from the app store. SO lets look at the money here.

Epic was charging $9.95 ON AN APP IN APPLE'S APP STORE, they were charging $7.95 direct.

Epic would get $6.97 for everyone that pays through the Apple App Store, and their in-app payment system. That's a difference of one penny less than a dollar! They are throwing a fit over NINETY NINE CENTS! So they risk getting ZERO for their little stunt. If Apple was getting enough to make Epic's share cut more than $2.00, I'd be upset too. But for $0.99? Really? If they were in operation when you sold real product, boxes and real CD's, it wasn't unheard of for some resellers to 'rent' shelf space and PAY to be shelved in the front, with BIG BANNERS announcing your wares. It's probably a good thing they can just sit on their butts and have suckers sign up and drop their money into the cloud. They would probably lose their poop if they had to pay the software chains to get better positioning on their shelves.

All of this is about 99 cents? Good grief!!!

And now Microstuff is piling on? Apple and Googles biggest competitor? Cute... And the kids hooked on their games are pawns. Sad...

$.99...

Their Chinese overlords are probably focused on their margins rather than their total profitability.

Let's say their cost per license is $2, their margins on $8 is 75% vs on $10 is 50%. So 50% improvement on margins! Woo hoo!

{Nevermind they lost the iOS revenue).

Wait for this all to be just collusion between Epic and Microsoft for the new XBox release....

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Their Chinese overlords are probably focused on their margins rather than their total profitability.

Let's say their cost per license is $2, their margins on $8 is 75% vs on $10 is 50%. So 50% improvement on margins! Woo hoo!

{Nevermind they lost the iOS revenue).

Wait for this all to be just collusion between Epic and Microsoft for the new XBox release....

And if they win, they start demanding $11.95, or even more.

 

[Coconut Bean]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the stance of Apple, but they are basically saying that you can't take your own subscription money on an app from the app store. SO lets look at the money here.

Epic was charging $9.95 ON AN APP IN APPLE'S APP STORE, they were charging $7.95 direct.

Epic would get $6.97 for everyone that pays through the Apple App Store, and their in-app payment system. That's a difference of one penny less than a dollar! They are throwing a fit over NINETY NINE CENTS! So they risk getting ZERO for their little stunt. If Apple was getting enough to make Epic's share cut more than $2.00, I'd be upset too. But for $0.99? Really? If they were in operation when you sold real product, boxes and real CD's, it wasn't unheard of for some resellers to 'rent' shelf space and PAY to be shelved in the front, with BIG BANNERS announcing your wares. It's probably a good thing they can just sit on their butts and have suckers sign up and drop their money into the cloud. They would probably lose their poop if they had to pay the software chains to get better positioning on their shelves.

All of this is about 99 cents? Good grief!!!

And now Microstuff is piling on? Apple and Googles biggest competitor? Cute... And the kids hooked on their games are pawns. Sad...

$.99...

And that's when microeconomics enter. Epic obviously would sell more if end user price was lower (or they could just pocket the difference from a lower cost of transaction.)

 

[Coconut Bean]

The EU have a habit of fining US companies and I'd absolutely expect them to move first. I don't see this particular case as going in Epic's favour but it doesn't mean that in the future the DOJ doesn't bring their own investigation.



Epic's emails to Apple specifically called out access to the low level to be able to install and update applications without being beholden to the normal sandbox that iOS applications are generally limited. To be an effective third party App Store, you need to have access to install and update the apps which is why I suspect Epic specifically called them out.

Epic wants to be the game App Store, but it's a a half win if they get more of the money.

 

[pacalis]

And that's when microeconomics enter. Epic obviously would sell more if end user price was lower (or they could just pocket the difference from a lower cost of transaction.)

I'm editing my earlier post which was about how Apple consumers are less price sensitive, so for the extra $1 epic charges, it is losing $7/ less price sensitive customer. A point made earlier.

Ironically, while they have eliminated two channels, with Apple and Android, if other channels are at $7 they will see a price increase. If that extra $1 they see through the other channels replaces the loss of consumer access, and the resultant consumer harm, that is what traditional monopoly pricing actually looks like.... That is where a goods price goes up, and where fewer consumers is more profitable.

So ya, funny, if you think like a micro-economist and infer from the pricing, Epic/Unreal is probably the monopolist in this space.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

And that's when microeconomics enter. Epic obviously would sell more if end user price was lower (or they could just pocket the difference from a lower cost of transaction.)

But would they sell more? Especially given their tantrum, and using their customers as pawns? Hmm... Mercy purchases?

They are only 'big' until the next thing comes along. I guess that might be behind their tantrum too? I don't know. It would have to be crazy, being a top game developer. Always looking over your shoulder for the Next Big Thing.

 

[I7guy]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the stance of Apple, but they are basically saying that you can't take your own subscription money on an app from the app store. SO lets look at the money here.

Epic was charging $9.95 ON AN APP IN APPLE'S APP STORE, they were charging $7.95 direct.

Epic would get $6.97 for everyone that pays through the Apple App Store, and their in-app payment system. That's a difference of one penny less than a dollar! They are throwing a fit over NINETY NINE CENTS! So they risk getting ZERO for their little stunt. If Apple was getting enough to make Epic's share cut more than $2.00, I'd be upset too. But for $0.99? Really? If they were in operation when you sold real product, boxes and real CD's, it wasn't unheard of for some resellers to 'rent' shelf space and PAY to be shelved in the front, with BIG BANNERS announcing your wares. It's probably a good thing they can just sit on their butts and have suckers sign up and drop their money into the cloud. They would probably lose their poop if they had to pay the software chains to get better positioning on their shelves.

All of this is about 99 cents? Good grief!!!

And now Microstuff is piling on? Apple and Googles biggest competitor? Cute... And the kids hooked on their games are pawns. Sad...

$.99...

The article takes about a coalition potentially being an anti-trust violation. Let the coalition form and let them collude, and let’s see what happens.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

The article takes about a coalition potentially being an anti-trust violation. Let the coalition form and let them collude, and let’s see what happens.

My idea was showing the problem: They want to play on Apple's court, and Apple, and Google say 'You want to play? You pay!'. Only a horribly tainted court would give Epic the keys to drive over Apple, and Google. BUT, it's not at all ruled out, yet, sadly...

Sure, Apple *could* charge less, but they think they have good reasons not too. I'm sure Google has similar reasons. So, as I tried to point out, Epic is hanging themselves over ninety nine cents. But I'm sure they will jack up their prices, if they win. (One small town I read about was in love with Walmart's special sales, and low prices. Once most of the other local competition closed because they couldn't compete, Walmart raised their prices. *GOTCHA* Hmm.)

Never trust corporations. Consumers are the ants, and when the behemoths start battling, ants are the first to die, trampled underfoot during the scuffle.

But whatever...