Ethical question?

Discussion in 'MacBook Pro' started by namethisfile, Apr 15, 2014.

  1. namethisfile macrumors 6502a

    namethisfile

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    #1
    hey guys,

    so i learned yesterday at the apple store that my mid-2010 15" mbp has an affected GPU. it failed their video system test right off the bat. the apple genius employee commented how fast my mbp failed the test that the likely culprit is the gpu and offered $310 to have the logic board replace off site. i think it's more expensive if they do it on-site. as i just don't have the money, i will have to live with this. the computer is fine doing "normal" things. but, once i start to make graphical motion sequences in motion 5, the mbp will KP and then i am able to replicate the KP over and over again. so, i can't even continue to work on the project unless i take out an effect or an element that triggered the KP. for example, adding drop shadows and simply adding more complexity to the project will trigger a KP.

    my question is, what are my options with this mbp regarding selling it on craig's list? should i mention that the mbp will kernel panic with motion 5 or if the gpu is stressed? and what is a fair price for this mbp with its crippling KP issue?

    MBP specs:

    mid-2010 15" MBP w/ hi-res screen
    2.66 Ghz dual-core i7
    8GB RAM
    120 GB SSD
    GT330M w/ 512MB VRAM
    Superdrive
    Mavericks 10.9.2

    thanks for any input.

    PS-the MBP itself is cosmetically near perfect as if new since i have taken good care of it.
     
  2. Barney63 macrumors 6502a

    Barney63

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Location:
    Bolton, UK.
    #2
    If there is a fault on it and you are aware of it then you should disclose it.
    I would be very unhappy if I bought something off somebody and they didn't tell me of an inherent fault.

    Barney
     
  3. maflynn Moderator

    maflynn

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Location:
    Boston
    #3
    Being forthright and honest is the best policy. Lets spin it another way. How would you feel if you bought a computer that crashed when you ran some software but the seller didn't say anything. You'd be upset and feel as though you were scammed.
     
  4. namethisfile thread starter macrumors 6502a

    namethisfile

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    #4
    ok. disclosing it sounds right. i'd feel bad too knowing it has this issue. but, what is a fair price do you think since it has this issue?

    ----------

    true. so, should i say it will kernel panic using apple pro apps like motion 5? or that i took it to the apple store and failed their video systems test? i guess the question now is, how much should i disclose?

    and what price is a fair price for this computer with its weird gpu issues?
     
  5. Barney63 macrumors 6502a

    Barney63

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Location:
    Bolton, UK.
    #5
    Take a look on craigslist and ebay to see what similar models sell for.
    I believe it is a common fault with the dGPU on that model.

    Barney
     
  6. maflynn Moderator

    maflynn

    Staff Member

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    Location:
    Boston
    #6
    I would say it has some video issues, possibly bad GPU and it failed Apple's video test.
     
  7. Hieveryone macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    #7
    I'm not one to judge but personally no I wouldn't sell something that has a defect to someone if I knew it was there.

    They guys going to feel so bad paying top dollar for a product that has a problem he didn't know about.

    Whether or not YOU should do it is between you and your conscience.
     
  8. namethisfile thread starter macrumors 6502a

    namethisfile

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    #8
    well, if i sell it, i will disclose the problems with the computer. that is why i am asking. and part of the question is also for how much. i can't obviously sell it at "top dollar" like the computer has no issues. so, i will have to sell the computer at a lowered price. so, basically, lowered price and full disclosure of the problems inherent with this model year macbook pro.

    it's going to be a tough decision since i basically bought this MBP for the apple pro apps like motion 5 and fcp x and this model year macbook pro with its weird gpu issues makes these programs unusable, which is a shame. but, the computer is fine doing "normal" things like email, watching youtube videos (although it will sometimes KP doing this but much rarer and more random and not replicable like it is with motion 5)... writing documents in word, etc... it is only motion 5 where it is really unusable up to a certain point when the project is complex. it is possible, tho, to make a project in motion 5 with an awareness to keep it simple as to not trigger the kernel panic.....

    i heard about the dgpu issues of this computer. and apple even honored replacing the logic board for this model until dec. of 2013. so i missed the boat on that one since i wasn't aware of this issue. it was only in the last couple months and specifically in the last week when i was working on a motion 5 project did i come to realize how faulty and how terrible the kernel panics has become. but, again, my computer will run fine for days if i don't use motion 5 and just stick to light usage of the computer.

    so, if i do sell it at a lower price and with full-disclosure of the inherent issues, then the person i sell i to will know what is at stake and that the computer will work under normal/light usage. the only time the issues crop up is when the dGPU is stressed and in a specific manner because even if the dGPU is selected like when i unckeck dynamic switching under the energy preferences pane, the computer will not kernel panic, even tho, it is using the nvidia dGPU. only in specific situations, it seems, will the KP happen. anyway, long winded but just wanted to explain the situation.

    ps---everytime my computer Kernel Panics now and i see the apple logo during boot, i see a lemon. i wish i could change the apple logo into a lemon logo just for this computer.
     
  9. marc55 macrumors 6502a

    marc55

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    #9
    I'm glad you will take the high road and disclose the faults.

    As for price, I guess you could list it for a fair price/best offer
     
  10. jps24 macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    #10
    Personally I would contact senior technical support and request that they resolve the issue. The worst they can say is no. This was a known issue that was occurring and should have been resolved when Apple was made aware of the issue.
     
  11. namethisfile thread starter macrumors 6502a

    namethisfile

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    Jan 17, 2008
    #11
    how do i contact senior technical support?
     
  12. jps24 macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    #12
    Call the 1800-MY-APPLE number and first ask for technical support. Explain the situation inform them that you were aware this is a know issue that was covered for 3 years from your purchase date. If they say they are unable to cover it try to ask for a senior advisor to handle the situation. They will either get you to a senior advisor or customer relations. They should help Apple has one of the customer service teams in the industry. Hope this helped worst case you are no further ahead but at least you tried!
     
  13. b3av3r, Apr 15, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014

    b3av3r macrumors regular

    b3av3r

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2012
    Location:
    Louisiana
    #13
    If you do you decide to sell it, you can list it has a problem with the GPU common to this particular model computer and possibly put a link to an article discussing the issue?

    Let them know it can't handle certain actions but "light" everyday actions rarely result in problems. At this point the buyer has enough information to ask you more questions or do research on their own about the problem.
     
  14. namethisfile, Apr 15, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014

    namethisfile thread starter macrumors 6502a

    namethisfile

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    #14
    omg! i can link dozens of articles relating to this from this forum and apple's. it would be quite scary in fact for any potential buyer to know. i just wish that there was somekind of explanation directly from apple about this issue and why the dgpu for these model year notebooks are failing. and not just what they've stated about quality control or bad dgpu. quality control doesn't really tell me anything. nor does a bad dgpu since i've read on these same forums regarding these model mbp's of people having the same problems even after having their logic boards replaced.

    anyway, i think i will disclose more history about this mbp. it might help its resale value or make it worst. it doesn't really matter, now, anyway. the price i can sell this thing will not be enough to cover for a new one. not even close. so, out of disparation or maybe curiosity or maybe hard hardheadedness, or all of the above, i disassembled my mbp so i can re-apply the thermal paste after my visit to the apple store and seeing it fail the video systems test. i had nothing to lose anyway. and everything to gain. i wanted to take a peak at the mysterious, infamous and problematic nvidia GT330M dGPU inside these mbp's with my very own eyes. i also wanted to see if there was anything apparent that i can see either on the actual dGPU or surrounding area in the logic board that might be the problem. like, a fried chip or something. i don't know. i'm not an engineer or a technician. but, i do know my way around this stuff since i've taken apart a powerbook G4 and these unibodies are a piece of cake compared to those, so i was confident that i could do it. and there are great guides on the internet about how to disassemble apple products. the other thing that was also on my mind is that maybe the thermal paste had dried up and/or overdone at the factory like some people on here have noticed and maybe a simple re-application of the thermal paste will magically fix the kernel panicking. well, after all that, and after checking the logic board and dGPU with my very own eyes, the re-application of the thermal paste didn't fix the KP's, nor did i learn anything about this problematic dGPU when i was removing the thermal paste and seeing it gleam there, as if mocking me, without any fault from what my untrained eye can fathom.

    so, do you guys think i should disclose this information too? if so, do you think it will help its resale value or make it worst?

    ps--thanks for indulging me with this lemon computer. it's so frustrating that i just needed to let it out.
     
  15. namethisfile, Apr 17, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2014

    namethisfile thread starter macrumors 6502a

    namethisfile

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    #15
    I called this number. I can't get technical phone support unless I buy an agreement, which was offered to me for $19. I declined! I never got the extended apple care and only had the normal 1 year warranty covered with all their products.

    i am giving up on having to persuade apple to repair my MBP for free for several reasons:

    1) i opened up my MBP as stated to re-apply thermal paste, which i think i succeeded by making it better and probably using better thermal compound than what was used in factory. and I am afraid Apple techs will know this once they open up the computer for the logic board swap and blame me and then decide to charge me anyway.

    2) I never got Apple Care for it (i just had the normal 1 year warranty), which would entitle Apple to not be "Obligated" to fix my computer even though my MBP is showing symptoms of the infamous "TS4088 issue," which from what I've read means that there is a latent defect with the dGPU from this particular make and model and basically makes my MBP a clicking and ticking "time-bomb!" Get it? Nevermind!

    3) the $19 support fee from calling this number dissuaded me even further. confirming reason #2 and reason #4

    4) the vicious logic board swap comes to mind. even if apple swaps my logic board for free, lets say--who is to say, the logic board will not suffer from the same issue down the road and even if they replace it again and again and again--all for free--time would have gone by and time, by itself, would make all of the swapping useless, incomprehensible and utterly insane experience to have to go through

    if my MBP was a car, I don't care if I didn't pay extra for Apple Care and just had the normal 1 Year Warranty nor do I care if 3, or 4 or 5 years had gone by from the date of purchase of the computer--if the computer has a latent defect that makes it impossible to work on the computer, then the computer needs to be exchanged. regardless of the date apple had set up for their quality exchange program or my decision not to get Apple Care. if this computer was a car, and this car decides to kernel panic, then the consequences would be much more severe than the computer rebooting or losing unsaved work!!!!

    i get that this computer is old and that parts for it like logic boards aren't made anymore. in that case, apple needs to replace every single one of these computers exhibiting the TS4088 symptoms, including mine, with an equivalent working MBP that has either equivalent or better specs. so either a new MBP or the 2012 ones since the 2011 MBP's with the AMD gpu also have dumb issues from what I've read on the internet. i don't care about retina, either.

    i think this is the only solution. if a MBP was a car, this would not be tolerated. and this is what i was going to say to the poor technical person if i was eligible for technical phone support or decided to pay $19 for it.

    also, a small number of these mbp's are exhibiting this so each time a costumer walks into the apple store and has this model MBP and failed the Video Systems Test, a red flag should have went that would automatically set up this costumer for a new computer. i think this is the only solution! it's the easiest solution. again, if these MBP's were cars. I say only solution because they no longer make this model and how many logic boards are there for apple to swap out the defected ones?

    anyway... dam you lemonbook pro from the middle of 2010 which from what i've read was made between april of 2010 and feb of 2011 with this self-rebooting, kernel panicking.... whatever!

    I digress!
     
  16. Ledgem macrumors 65816

    Ledgem

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2008
    Location:
    Hawaii, USA
    #16
    I had a 2008 Macbook Pro that had the faulty Nvidia 8600M GT. Apple issued a formal replacement policy extension for affected computers, such that anyone with that computer, regardless of whether Applecare was purchased or not, would receive free repairs for up to five years. I had replaced the hard drive, RAM, and DVD drive in my computer, but Apple still performed a free repair on my system. My system wasn't symptomatic, and it technically didn't fail any of their tests, either. It just... didn't respond to the tests.

    Granted, Apple formally recognized the Nvidia cards as problematic, whereas it sounds like these mobile Radeon chips haven't been officially declared faulty. (Edit: I realized that your system uses the Nvidia GT330 chipset. I haven't heard anything about those being declared faulty, either.)

    This is what happened for some MBP owners with the Nvidia 8600M GT. While it's a less pleasant experience than having a computer with a much lower failure rate, getting repairs for free means you're just out for a few days while the repairs take place. You could also have the repairs and then sell the computer, stating that it was just serviced by Apple and boosting the resale price in the process.

    I hate to state the obvious, but a Macbook Pro is not a car. Cars aren't free from these issues, either. I can tell you that there's a part in the car that I drive that wears out unusually quickly, according to many other drivers of the same vehicle. It is a vital part to the operation of the vehicle. The manufacturer refuses to acknowledge it and so we're stuck replacing it ourselves. What can you do?
     
  17. namethisfile thread starter macrumors 6502a

    namethisfile

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    #17
    Nvidia GT330M discrete GPU and not chipset. just google it and you'll realize more.


    i think what happened to 8600M GT is different than the mid-2010 MBP's with the GT330M dGPU. those MBP's had obvious video issues or glitches on the actual screen and/or artifacts due to heat and solder of the gpu becoming loose over time from the computer outputting heat from day to day use. not sure, though since that is not my computer model. but, the model i have doesn't have video glitches or artifacts on the screen that would point to an obvious hardware dGPU issue. this is why i was mystified at first when the kernel panics started happening and is why i took it to apple store to diagnose it. i wasn't sure if it was hardware or software. but my computer failing the apple video systems test demystified some of the questions i had. althought i am still waiting for my computer to finally die. at least, it will then be definitive since i cannot and won't be able to afford a new logic board any time soon. this would all be different if i could afford to have my mbp repaired, wouldn't it?


    if you hate to state the obvious, then don't state it.

    the macbook pro-car analogy i was making was simple to understand. i was referring to my computer "malfunctioning" or "kernel panicking" or "crashing." i then stated how if my computer was a car that the consequences would be more severe than losing unsaved work or having the inconvenience of my computer rebooting from the kernel panic. i then continue that this would obviously be not tolerated if my product was a car. and there is history of car manufacturers making recalls or getting into a big media controversy for failing to not make those recalls when their vehicles have a "latent defect."

    if what i've read on the internet is true, then a small number of the mid-2010 MBP's with the discrete nvidia GT330M GPU that were manufactured btwn april 2010 to feb 2011 has somekind of latent defect with the dGPU. this means that it is not from wear and tear or things breaking over a period of time. i think latent defect means that a small number of these computers were defected straight out of the factory and wasn't detected until later on. hence the word, "latent."

    this makes little sense. you know, you're not the only one that drives a car. we all drive cars. well a lot of us do. and we understand what you are trying to say. just forget spinning it to make it sound ambiguous because you are trying to disprove my argument. there is no winner in the outcome anyway.

    i don't even know why i am responding to this.
     
  18. Ledgem macrumors 65816

    Ledgem

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    Jan 18, 2008
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    Hawaii, USA
    #18
    I wasn't trying to "disprove" anything that you wrote. You gave a number of reasons why you didn't want to continue the efforts to have Apple cover the repair for free. I was trying to be supportive in stating why it's worth the effort and that you stand a decent chance to have it done. I didn't think that "this wouldn't happen if a Macbook Pro were a car" was a particularly good lead-in, not only because we're talking about different products, but because it does happen with cars.

    However, you've written quite a defensive, nasty reply. The last bit of advice that I can give to you is this: if you try talking to Apple representatives again, don't take that tone with them.

    Best of luck.
     
  19. namethisfile, Apr 19, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014

    namethisfile thread starter macrumors 6502a

    namethisfile

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    #19
    i just quoted myself there because it's clear you didnd't even read what i posted. how could i even take your advice seriously.

    if you think that's nasty and defensive then i don't think you've worked for customer service at all. or even overheard or just read what OP's have written since i've had to quote myself with this reply and in my previous reply about MBP with the GT330m dGpu.

    i'm quite a reasonable guy and i think my tone with my posts here have all been logical. no pun intended.

    the car-mbp thing is arguable but i was trying to make my case. i was connecting my experience with my MBP, in which my computer is fine with normal day-to-day use until i use certain programs, which causes it to kernel panic without fail. something is wrong with the dGPU causing this kernel panic. so my computer is fine, i take it for a "spin" and then it crashes. but, you obviously don't buy this. and it's fine. i was just trying to make my case of my computer crashing is terrible because to me, if i can't use my computer in motion 5 then i am just driving my car or using my computer in a limited way. like driving a car at max speed of 20 mph and if i go above that speed, my car-computer crashes.

    i know they're two separate products. my analogy wasn't about, if my computer was a car, in actuality, but, if my computer was a car and then it crashes. a computer crashing is different than a car crashing and that is what my point and analogy was about. not sure if that was clear. and so if my computer is crashing then it is defective but apple is swapping the logic boards with a fee and i tried to make a point in my earlier post that it should be just an outright exchange for a new computer with comparable specs with this mbp's. i think it is the easiest solution for a multi billion dollar company since these model mbp's are no longer being made and that is probably why the quality exchange program for this particular model exhibiting the "TS4088" issue ended in december of 2013. it's now april of 2014 so i missed that boat. my only recourse is to pay for a logicl board swap. but, i think apple should still honor owners of this model mbp like me who missed the boat by outrightly giving me a brand new, or refurb model that doesn't have this problematic dGPU. and my car-computer analogy extended to manufacturers honoring latent defects with their products which car manufacturers do honor, if you google that or have kept up with the news. for example, GM was in the news recently about knowing that one of their cars had a defect and failed to acknowledge and fix the problem.

    so in summary, when i took my mid-2010 mbp a couple of weeks ago to have it diagnosed and it failed the video systems test, something in their system should have flagged my computer as one of those "defective" computers still out in the wild and should be remedied. my analogies with the car was just a way to bring my point home that maybe apple should take these computers more seriously. instead, all i got was, an offer to fix it for $310 for a logic board swap. and, i can't afford it. so, it didn't make sense to me why the quality exchange program has a deadline and people like me with this MBP are left out in the dust to pay for this because we found out about the latent defect a little too late.
     
  20. Felasco Guest

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    #20
    Stop buying stuff from that manufacturer, and use our word of mouth power to alert others.

    The main reason we have to deal with issues like this is that we're willing to deal with issues like this. To a significant degree, we are the problem.

    I was curious if the OP would buy another Mac.

    One solution for the future could be to always buy AppleCare, and don't expect the Mac to last past the three years of AppleCare coverage. Divide the price up over 36 months, and think of it as a rental. And if the Mac lasts longer than 3 years, celebrate the unexpected windfall.

    Another solution is to buy used. You can get 3-4 used Macs for the price of one. If one of the used Mac dies, just toss it and fire up the next one. This is the most reliable Mac buying method I'm aware of.

    We've got two old Macs here that are pushing twenty years old, and they still chug along every day. Other fancier Macs died just out of warranty. You never know which it's going to be, so I've started calling it the "lemon lottery".
     
  21. namethisfile, Apr 19, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014

    namethisfile thread starter macrumors 6502a

    namethisfile

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    Jan 17, 2008
    #21
    if i wanna keep using motion 5 and fcp x then i don't have much of a choice. i have a gaming pc with windows and recently trying out adobe products for free but it's not the same and is more expensive. for example, the workflow or at least my workflow for motion 5 is a lot quicker than doing something similar in after effects cc. i also think the same effects in motion 5 is better than the same effect in AE CC. this effect is the "bad tv" effect. film grain effect is also better in motion 5 from what i am noticing. maybe there are better plug ins for AE CC that i can use but out of the box, motion 5 seems to have more advance effects and a lot more out of the box.

    the future is dim regarding a next mac. will i get another mac? a lot of things has to fall in place for me to even think of getting another laptop. but, this experience will certainly make me think twice about not getting apple care. but, i will probably not get it if i do, let's just say for this argument--do get a new laptop. why? money! i've never gotten apple care and out of 4 macs (excluding iToys) i've purchased in the last decade or so, only one decided to have a latent defect. and apple care or insurance should not be needed for a "latent defect" since the computer was inherently unstable straight out of the factory. this means that it should be remedied by the manufacturer regardless of apple care or years going by. apple did acknowledge this but set a deadline for the quality exchange program which makes no sense since i did not notice this latent defect until recently. so, my computer is unusable using certain programs, which makes my computer a half computer and i am willing to live with this computer. but i just wish to somehow find a way to change the apple logo of my computer into a lemon. this way, when my computer boots, i know it's a lemon and i won't try to do anything stupid like work on a motion 5 project to trigger the kernel panic. and even if it does kernel panic, the right logo will be there for what the computer is. a lemonbook pro.

    it is indeed a lemon lottery. i just want the lemon to be a logo now on my mbp when it boots so it is official. lol!

    PS--those 4 macs i got are older and i no longer have to use as backup. imac was handed down to brother. powerbook g4 is too old to use except browse the web and edit videos in SD if i really needed to but still works, tho and doesn't have latent dgpu issues. and my 2011 mac mini was sold for a gaming pc.
     
  22. pricej636 macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2010
    Location:
    Colorado
    #22
    I think the point that people were trying to make is that you should really try harder to get Apple to do something about it. If it is a documented issue, and it sounds like it is in this case, keep trying until you get someone willing to listen to you. At that point if they tell you that it is too late to do anything about it, then I could accept that as an answer.

    Or just deal with it and stop whining about it. Those are your two options. No point in talking about it further if you aren't willing to put forth any more effort to have something done.
     
  23. namethisfile, Apr 22, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014

    namethisfile thread starter macrumors 6502a

    namethisfile

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    #23
    that's fair! i totally hear you! i'm more or less just whining now. this week my computer has been KPing doing "normal" things. not as predictable as using Motion 5, but it crashes in garageband now too. even browsing in safari, using say, google maps, will cause it to KP. Or if I let the computer sit for a while and then click anywhere on the screen will cause a KP!. so, the KP has gotten worst and has spread from what i thought were "gpu extensive" apps to "normal light usage." so, i tried to do what i can do and rolled back to mountain lion. same thing. same old KP! i am now on snow leopard which came with my computer and so far, no KP, yet. i can't test the same apps though since most of the "heavy-duty" apps i have are not compatible with snow leopard, like, motion 5, fcp x, etc... but, garageband '11 (i think) works without KPing and have exported a song just to test it. i also installed COD: Modern Warfare and played about 35 minutes of it without KPing. i don't know. something about Open GL or Open CL or how the newer OS's interact with the Nvidia GT330m is making it KP. just a wild guess.

    i am throwing my hands up. i do have a recourse regarding selling this computer which is to trade it in at a store. my last hope though is for apple to fixt it via 10.9.3. or a video firmware update or something. i don't want to play the logic board swap vicious cycle because it doesn't make sense to me that a logic board swap is necessary for KPing. maybe, i'm wrong on this. but, KPing is usually software related than hardware. i mean if my dGPU is really bad then there would be no video at all, right? or there would be glitches and artifacts on the screen or something. so, it makes me a bit wary that swapping my logic board out for say $310 for the same exact hardware that is known to be problematic will fix the inherent, latent issue. i feel like, the problem can resurface again if what was done was simply to swap logic boards. this brings up another thing which is every single owner of the mid-2010 MBP with the nvidia GT330m should have the same issue as me, right? my question is, why are only a "small number" of this model MBP affected? what makes a working logic board of this model a working logic board as oppose to the one that is affected? i just wish an expert from apple or an expert from anywhere can explain more about why and what is causing this issue with KPing? and not just a blank statement of, well, "a small number of MBP's made from april 2010 to february 2011 have a latent defect with the dGPU that is causing the computer to kernel panic and that the logic board needs to be replaced." i feel like that isn't enough.

    like.... what exactly is the defect? what exactly does small number mean? does that mean that not all Nvidia GT330m's have this defect and only some do like the ones with 512mb of VRAM (like mine) as oppose to the other model with 256mb VRAM? why aren't all affected? why does swapping another logic board help? what is different with the swapped out logic board if it has the same hardware (as it should)?

    yada-yada-yada....

    thanks.

    PS--hope i'm being constructively whining here.
     

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