EU Approves Landmark Legislation to Regulate Apple and Other Big Tech Firms

[AppliedMicro]

The following sounds like any phone to me:

Yes. And internet lines too.
But they aren’t controlled, locked down and, yes, governed by a core platform provider.

You can literally go to the store, purchase a SIM card, pop it in your choice of phone and begin to provide your own phone sex service. Using the payment provider you like.

I the phone company or manufacturer going to reject your service for its sexual content based on moral standards? No. Do they charge a 30% commission on your subscriptions? No. You just do business on their platform without their interference (though of course you have to obey the relevant laws)

Btw, video game consoles provide "gateways to reach users through the Union and beyond" too.

Yes - but not for the broad multi-sidness of services that smartphones do.
Broadly speaking, game consoles are sold to and used by video gamers - only.
Smartphones and mobile apps by “everyone”.

I won’t be getting into a back and forth with you quoting bits of the legislation that also apply to the gaming market to quote others that don’t.

If the users don't want to rely on a vertically integrated device, they have a choice to go to Android

Android is heavily integrated as well, when the developer makes its own (Pixel) phones, operates the (by far) biggest application store (bing the only app store through which apps by most regulated companies are available), internet search and map services etc.

 

[pastrychef]

Yes. And internet lines too.
But they aren’t controlled, locked down and, yes, governed by a core platform provider.

You can literally go to the store, purchase a SIM card, pop it in your choice of phone and begin to provide your own phone sex service. Using the payment provider you like.

I the phone company or manufacturer going to reject your service for its sexual content based on moral standards? No. Do they charge a 30% commission on your subscriptions? No. You just do business on their platform without their interference (though of course you have to obey the relevant laws)

Yes - but not for the broad multi-sidness of services that smartphones do.
Broadly speaking, game consoles are sold to and used by video gamers - only.
Smartphones and mobile apps by “everyone”.

I won’t be getting into a back and forth with you quoting bits of the legislation that also apply to the gaming market to quote others that don’t.


Android is heavily integrated as well, when the developer makes its own (Pixel) phones, operates the (by far) biggest application store (bing the only app store through which apps by most regulated companies are available), internet search and map services etc.

The game consoles can be used for (1) gaming, (2) communications, (3) streaming movies. That's "multi".

Vertical integration is up for interpretation. How vertical are those Android devices? Do the phone makers develop their own CPUs for those phones? How many of them developed their own OS for their phones?

It just goes to show how poorly thought out and written these rules are. It needs to be tossed in the garbage.

 

[VulchR]

There is little evidence of that [sideloading killing off app store]. Sideloading certainly didn’t kill the Google Play Store.
...

Apple's System will be exactly like Google's after this. That hardly reassures me. I don't fancy having to install an iPhone antivirus tool just to use my device, but I could see my employer requiring this if I use my iPhone for work (as they do currently for Android mobiles). Moreover, it would take just Microsoft, Adobe or some other big players to abandon the App Store for it to start collapsing. You only have to look at the MacOS app store to see what effect sideloading could have.

This legislation will reduce consumer choice, not enhance it. Hopefully the UK won't jump on this bandwagon. If legislators want to regulate something about the Apple's App Store, they should require Apple to give quality control and security guarantees so that consumers are confident apps have been properly vetted.

 

[NotTooLate]

The game consoles can be used for (1) gaming, (2) communications, (3) streaming movies. That's "multi".

Vertical integration is up for interpretation. How vertical are those Android devices? Do the phone makers develop their own CPUs for those phones? How many of them developed their own OS for their phones?

It just goes to show how poorly thought out and written these rules are. It needs to be tossed in the garbage.

not to mention the latest generation console is a PC : X86 AMD APU , Standard SSD , Standard DRAM , Standard USB , Standard PSU , MS intentionally not letting windows run on it because they want to gain that 30% cut.

Its up to the company to decide the use case they want to support with a given device they are selling , if they want to sell you a computer that does only gaming with no general compute SW support , its on them , and that's what they are doing with the Xbox , you as a customer can decide if its a good product or not and buy accordingly.

 

[Beautyspin]

Just reading the typical suggestions that Apple will leave the EU market is entertainment enough for days for sure. If Apple would take half of the business advice from the typical MR loudmouths they’d be out of business already. They will - like any big tech company affected (let’s pretend it’s just Apple affected here) play nicely with the regulations - running a business in China for decades thought them as much.

Also, a company that sells cleaning cloth for $20 and a monitor stand for $400 is not going to leave money on the table by exiting EU.

 

[Lihp8270]

This is what happens with a weakling like Cook in charge rather than the T-Rex that Jobs was!
Steve would have battered the EU into withdrawing and not even daring to ask again!

You think that companies being able to dictate laws to whole countries is a good thing?

 

[Beautyspin]

How many companies have formed their own countries in the last millennia?

How many companies have designed and sold their own phones in the last decade?

What a stupid argument.

I consider both arguments stupid. Is expecting an App developer to make a phone exclusively for an App developed by them an intelligent suggestion? Just because Apple wants to not abide by laws of a country just because it thinks it is not profitable for them to follow them?

 

[Beautyspin]

No one is stopping you from using whatever payment method you like. It's your choice.

Your assertion is wrong. The issue is that Apple is stopping us from using our preferred payment method by blocking access to hardware in a way that is self-preferencing, which is what the EU is claiming and the reason for the clause that says Apple must allow access to NFC for third-parties.

Weighing mobile wallet competition as EU targets Apple Pay

The European Commission believes Apple must change its app store practices or potentially risk heavy fines, but industry experts are unsure whether the commission's actions are needed.

www.spglobal.com

 

[VulchR]

Nothing catastrophic has happened on Mac, Linux, Android, and Windows machines that allow installation from unknown sources (AKA sideloading). So, nothing will happen here also.

Have you looked at the MacOS app store lately? It certainly is not a vibrant as the iOS app store.

And catastrophic malware problems have all occurred on the platforms you have listed. Indeed, my work place requires antivirus software be installed on all the operating systems you listed for any device used for work. I don't fancy having my employer installing antivirus software on my iPhone. Having their VPN and authentication apps is bad enough. If you want sideloading freedom like Android, then buy Android.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Moreover, it would take just Microsoft, Adobe or some other big players to abandon the App Store for it to start collapsing.

That's an admission that they're only in the App Store because they're forced to, isn't it?

Well, it would be, if their applications weren't on the Google Play Store - where they technically aren't prevented from sideloading by Android.

Also, why would that be a problem? Just use someone else's word processing or image editing app, can't you?

You only have to look at the MacOS app store to see what effect sideloading could have

Yeah, I did.
There's a plethora of innovative applications that Apple wouldn't allow on their own "walled garden" store.
And I also purchased a reputable OCR software for like 50 USD from the developer's site, where it would have cost me 130 for the Mac App Store download.

Great for me as a consumer, quite honestly!
I'm happy to have that choice.

 

[pastrychef]

I consider both arguments stupid. Is expecting an App developer to make a phone exclusively for an App developed by them an intelligent suggestion? Just because Apple wants to not abide by laws of a country just because it thinks it is not profitable for them to follow them?

Is Facebook an app developer? Did they make their own phone?

How did Apple not abide by laws?

 

[pastrychef]

Your assertion is wrong. The issue is that Apple is stopping us from using our preferred payment method by blocking access to hardware in a way that is self-preferencing, which is what the EU is claiming and the reason for the clause that says Apple must allow access to NFC for third-parties.

Weighing mobile wallet competition as EU targets Apple Pay

The European Commission believes Apple must change its app store practices or potentially risk heavy fines, but industry experts are unsure whether the commission's actions are needed.

www.spglobal.com

If you know the iPhone doesn't allow you do something you want to do, why would you buy an iPhone? Why don't you just buy an Android phone?

Isn't choice great?

 

[AppliedMicro]

The game consoles can be used for (1) gaming, (2) communications, (3) streaming movies. That's "multi".

It is, and I didn't dispute that. That said, anyone, even a child can obviously see how smartphones are much more versatile and "multi-sided" than game consoles.

The EU isn't trying to address and regulate any "multi-sided" device or software platforms. They're merely going after the very biggest, most powerful, that really impact the functioning of the internal market (not game consoles).

If you're concerned about this, maybe you should write to your local European member of parliament?

 

[AppliedMicro]

If you know the iPhone doesn't allow you do something you want to do, why would you buy an iPhone? Why don't you just buy an Android phone?

Isn't choice great?

As a matter of fact, there are only 2 relevant operating systems for mobile phones.
All of them probably have something that consumers want to do but can't.

A choice between 2 systems is hardly enough to allow anyone or everyone to choose a platform with which they can do anything they want.

 

[pastrychef]

It is, and I didn't dispute that. That said, anyone, even a child can obviously see how smartphones are much more versatile and "multi-sided" than game consoles.

The EU isn't trying to address and regulate any "multi-sided" device or software platforms. They're merely going after the very biggest, most powerful, that really impact the functioning of the internal market (not game consoles).

If you're concerned about this, maybe you should write to your local European member of parliament?

My point is that the language in the rules are too vague. Too much is left up to interpretation. This will just lead to abuse/misuse.

 

[pastrychef]

As a matter of fact, there are only 2 relevant operating systems for mobile phones.
All of them probably have something that consumers want to do but can't.

A choice between 2 systems is hardly enough to allow anyone or everyone to choose a platform with which they can do anything they want.

Well, these rules aren't going to spur more operating systems to be developed.

 

[mrochester]

As a matter of fact, there are only 2 relevant operating systems for mobile phones.
All of them probably have something that consumers want to do but can't.

A choice between 2 systems is hardly enough to allow anyone or everyone to choose a platform with which they can do anything they want.

This is why we need regulations to give users more choice at the operating system level. That way there can be an option for what a user wants without the need to ruin iOS.

 

[I7guy]

As a matter of fact, there are only 2 relevant operating systems for mobile phones.
All of them probably have something that consumers want to do but can't.

A choice between 2 systems is hardly enough to allow anyone or everyone to choose a platform with which they can do anything they want.

Then force the android smartphone manufacturers to develop their own operating systems. As the eu has shown any legislation, no matter how bad can be ratified…so stop google from selling android through some ill-conceived legislation.

 

[webkit]

Addressing "potential" antitrust issues? Are we in Minority Report world now?

I meant "potential" more to refer to possible future activities but if you prefer simply "antitrust issues", that's fine too. This legislation is meant to address various antitrust issues.

 

[webkit]

Then force the android smartphone manufacturers to develop their own operating systems. As the eu has shown any legislation, no matter how bad can be ratified…so stop google from selling android through some ill-conceived legislation.

Antitrust legislation is not so much about there only being two relevant operating systems (that alone is not a legal issue), it's about how the two companies controlling those operating systems conduct business related to the operating systems.

However, if Google were to violate EU (or other region) antitrust laws to the point of no longer being allowed to offer Android, that would obviously force other companies to create their own OS.

 

[mrochester]

Antitrust legislation is not so much about there only being two relevant operating systems (that alone is not a legal issue), it's about how the two companies controlling those operating systems conduct business related to the operating systems.

However, if Google were to violate EU (or other region) antitrust laws to the point of no longer being allowed to offer Android, that would obviously force other companies to create their own OS.

Surely google already does this by giving android away for free? I'm sure it's a concept called 'dumping'. If android were a standalone company and product would it be possible to give it away for free?

 

[vipergts2207]

Surely google already does this by giving android away for free? I'm sure it's a concept called 'dumping'. If android were a standalone company and product would it be possible to give it away for free?

Facebook gives away their product for free so why not? Even in an EU where each phone manufacturer had to make their own OS, this simply results in most phone manufacturers dying off in the EU. Most developers aren't going to write apps for a dozen different phones/OSs for a single market (EU) with a market share in the single digits and consumers will stop buying those brands. A likely scenario would leave the market with iPhones, Pixels, and Galaxies with all others in Europe going the way of RIM and Palm. This doesn't appreciably change things with regard to anti-competitive factors.

 

[mrochester]

Facebook gives away their product for free so why not? Even in an EU where each phone manufacturer had to make their own OS, this simply results in most phone manufacturers dying off in the EU. Most developers aren't going to write apps for a dozen different phones/OSs for a single market (EU) with a market share in the single digits and consumers will stop buying those brands. A likely scenario would leave the market with iPhones, Pixels, and Galaxies with all others in Europe going the way of RIM and Palm. This doesn't appreciably change things with regard to anti-competitive factors.

Why not is because dumping is anticompetitive and reduces competition. I would completely outlaw it. Neither facebook's or google's business practices are examples we should be encouraging. We need more vertically integrated companies like Apple. Let there be competition.

I thought developers were very unhappy with the lack of competition? Surely they'd be jumping at the chance of having multiple platforms to deliver their products and services on? It would be hypocritical of them to complain about the lack of competition but then not make their products and services available on all the competing platforms when they have a chance.

 

[vipergts2207]

Why not is because dumping is anticompetitive and reduces competition. I would completely outlaw it.

I was speaking to whether or not Android could survive as a standalone company, not to the merits of dumping. And outlawing dumping doesn't stop Apple and Google from acting anti-competitively for the reasons I outlined. It will just result in a market with much fewer smartphone manufacturers which could actually open up Apple to anti-trust actions on their hardware because instead of having a dozen relevant smartphone manufacturers there would only be two or three. Apple would be facing the same issue with their hardware that they're currently facing with their software.

 

[mrochester]

I was speaking to whether or not Android could survive as a standalone company, not to the merits of dumping. And outlawing dumping doesn't stop Apple and Google from acting anti-competitively for the reasons I outlined. It will just result in a market with much fewer smartphone manufacturers which could actually open up Apple to anti-trust actions on their hardware because instead of having a dozen relevant smartphone manufacturers there would only be two or three. Apple would be facing the same issue with their hardware that they're currently facing with their software.

Less competition in the hardware layer and more competition in the operating system layer is exactly what the world needs. We don't need yet another android OEM making yet another cookie cutter device. We need an OEM making a device with a different operating system and ecosystem.

The amount of competition in the hardware layer is completely wasteful as it doesn't produce any meaningful differentiation for consumers. An OEM making a smartphone with a totally different operating system and ecosystem does produce meaningful differentiation and competition for consumers.

This also benefits developers as it means they can leverage the different platforms against one another to negotiate better terms for making and distributing apps.