Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Should you get pulled over for speeding 10 years later after they changed the law to make the speed you traveled at higher than the speed now allowed? From what I understand of this law, Apple would already be over the speed limit. They are breaking the law before the law takes affect.

If the law was set at or just above what Apple is currently doing. At least that would provide them the ability to change willingly.

Apple, Google and others still have time to "change willingly." This legislation isn't going into effect immediately.



So then the issue is that once any company starts to dominate we need to cripple them?
This can't be right. I guess we move away from capitalism then.
I think it should be about how they got to that position and what they are doing in that space.
Has any of these governments thought of what happens if Apple went away? What's the impact to society then?

The issue is that once a company reaches dominance, their business activities come under greater antitrust or anticompetitive scrutiny since their actions can have a much greater impact on the market than smaller companies.



That's the risk. You take it or you don't. Now if Google or Apple did something illegal to prevent you from starting up or trying. That's a different thing. But computers existed before Apple tried their hat at it. Cellphones and smartphones existed before Apple and Google tried their hat in it.

That's where the laws and regulations come in. Some regulators may consider Apple restricting access to other/rival browser engines, payment systems, etc. on a dominant mobile OS platform to be "illegal" anticompetitive behavior and stifles competition or innovation.



Do you think intel would have shifted as much as they have recently if it wasn't for Apple? I'm sure AMD helps to prod them here and there. But, they both are in about the same boat. AMD fairing better. But, Apple leaving intel was the anvil that broke the ants back in my humble opinion.
Now, even Microsoft is moving to ARM based chips. Now, these companies are tying to compete with Apple. They are innovating.

Competition comes when one or a few companies does something that changes things up, freaks people out, does unexpectedly well. Then someone else comes up with an alternative or something similar. Sometimes it better, or worse or anywhere in-between. I think there is plenty of innovation in the mobile space. Plenty of handset makers doing all kinds of new things with the technology we have available.

Competition and innovation can still occur to at least some degree even in duopoly markets but that doesn't mean anticompetitive behavior can't also be occurring which stifles competition or innovation whether in that marker or related markets.
 
This is an opinion. But to be fair. If the rules keep changing. I'll agree with your statement. As who would want to compete? What's the incentive to try if you could in the end be too big to go on?
To make money, it’s not a charity. Someone inventing android 2.0 will have zero problems with EU as long as they don’t do the same anti competitive activities Google did and was fined for.

The Commission ruled that Google broke EU rules by requiring smartphone makers to take a bundle of Google apps if they wanted any at all, and prevented them from selling devices with altered versions of Android.
Which oddly enough surprises me to this day that they are not the leaders in the mobile space. But that is their mistake.
They came at the right time, and dealt with the right companies and had/have the right approach when it came to Windows OS. They didn't want to make the whole widget (how things are changing now of course). They wanted to sell the OS and there apps to as many computer companies as possible. And saw to it that they could through licensing. This sounds to me just like Google and Android. And its working for them almost the same.
This is the damaging effects Microsoft have done, it’s by entrenching themselves and undercutting all competition, now that they exist everywhere and made themselves the defacto industry standard is what’s keeping them in place. And EU don’t want this to become the case with apple or Google.
Just stating again my point that we don't need these rules. For the majority of people out there. They wouldn't use it. Just making holes in the OS for a sliver of the market that would occasionally to regularly use it.
Well rules exist to protect the little guy as well not just the majority
I guess for some people governments can do no wrong.
It’s just different cultural approaches. We have much more trust in government than you do. USA have a fear of big government.
Europe loves big government.

Just look at the differences
EU nations:
Everyone is registered in a government birthplace database
Special social security number
High taxes.
Know exactly how much you earn
Etc etc
We put more trust in government institutions and it’s job, you don’t, and that’s okay.
It will always be. They can comply or they can stop selling the device. Or they can stop selling the device with any NFC tech. Now what? They could just straight up disable it, or remove it from the EU model.
Won’t be the first time apple have disabled features in iOS for Europeans.
I'd very much like to see the EU charge anyone a fine that goes on world wide sales. They are drunk to even suggest this.
They have already done this with google. I think the fine is now at 15billion euros.

And I don’t understand why you have a problem with it?
A poor guy speeds and get a 500$ fine.
A billionaire speeds and get a 5 million dollar fine.

Both are fare and do the job it’s intended to do. Fines aren’t supposed to be expected in business, this means the law have failed.
Did Apple break any laws that existed when they placed NFC tech in the iPhone? I'm sure they had to register it in every EU country before selling it. Someone read it (maybe, governments can be slow), and didn't say a law was broken by them not allowing direct access to the tech.
Well we don’t know, they are under an anti competitive investigation since last year.
I'm sure there are going to be rules and regulations to follow for anything Apple makes even for internal use only.
Nope, it’s internal use= not on the market.
They can design anything they want. Those plans get submitted for approval with whatever government agencies around the world before any devices get sold. It has to comply BEFORE it's sold. Laws have been abided to as they were. EU and other governments wish to change the laws, and we are arguing about the fairness of these laws.
Governments don’t have the time or manpower to control apples business plan. All that is checked is if they follow regulations not laws
It will always be up to Apple to do what they wish with the devices they make. No government can make Apple do anything they don't want to. If they choose to comply, that's Apple's ability to do so. If they choose not to, they can deal with the loss and or any consequences from that choice too. Neither the EU or the US are dictatorships. Or full socialists taking over industry whenever they want.
Completely true, and governments are free to expel foreign entities at will for breaking the law.
Never said they did.

They could. But, and here is the BUT. Apple has lots of paying customers. And banks like money.

They can try.

Ok. I didn't know they had you in some kind of prison.

So just use Android.

Or cease to exist in the EU.

I doubt anyone is going to kick or scream at Apple. I'm sure many of you wish that was the case.
They will make a strategic decision to do what they feel is best for their company. That may or may not include leaving the EU over this BS. Or selling you scraps. Or just selling less.
Apple will do what apple will do, and the government will not bend the knee for them
But just look at google being investigated again.
More specifically, on the basis of the information currently available to the Commission, the investigation will at this stage focus on the following three allegations:

  1. whether Google has illegally hindered the development and market access of rival mobile applications or services by requiring or incentivising smartphone and tablet manufacturers to exclusively pre-install Google’s own applications or services;
  2. whether Google has prevented smartphone and tablet manufacturers who wish to install Google's applications and services on some of their Android devices from developing and marketing modified and potentially competing versions of Android(so-called “Android forks”) on other devices, thereby illegally hindering the development and market access of rival mobile operating systems and mobile applications or services;
  3. whether Google has illegally hindered the development and market access of rival applications and services by tying or bundling certain Google applications and services distributed on Android devices with other Google applications, services and/or application programming interfaces of Google.
 
Apple, Google and others still have time to "change willingly." This legislation isn't going into effect immediately.
Doesn't seem like it to me. But, everyones version of time is well, relative.
The issue is that once a company reaches dominance, their business activities come under greater antitrust or anticompetitive scrutiny since their actions can have a much greater impact on the market than smaller companies.
Laws will state they already reached and breached dominance. The bar is set below Apple's current level. It it was set a touch higher than they are currently at, maybe I'd be less upset about it.
That's where the laws and regulations come in. Some regulators may consider Apple restricting access to other/rival browser engines, payment systems, etc. on a dominant mobile OS platform to be "illegal" anticompetitive behavior and stifles competition or innovation.
All of which requires Apple to redo their OS. Because they already exceed the defined terms (by EU standards) of dominance. My argument here is, why not have the bar a bit higher than say the 30% Apple sits at? Say 35%.
Competition and innovation can still occur to at least some degree even in duopoly markets but that doesn't mean anticompetitive behavior can't also be occurring which stifles competition or innovation whether in that marker or related markets.
Very true.
 
Some regulators may consider Apple restricting access to other/rival browser engines, payment systems, etc. on a dominant mobile OS platform to be "illegal" anticompetitive behavior
All of which requires Apple to redo their OS.
It doesn't. It doesn't require any "redoing" of their OS.

- Browser engines? Just stop contractually prohibiting them.
- Other payment systems? Just stop contractually prohibiting them.
- Same is true for sideloading: Just stop contractually prohibiting them and sign apps just as they do for enterprise developers.

I'm saying that they don't have to make OS changes for some of the other things (like messenger interoperability). But even NFC access should, from what I understand, be not more than flipping a switch. There are others non-wallet NFC-using apps today - Apple are just deliberately withholding access to the NFC hardware to prop up their own system against competitors (whether that's for the benefit or long-term detriment to consumers remains up for debate).

EDIT: Oh, just noticing the latter has been in the news today, on Macrumors - for the US.
 
All of which requires Apple to redo their OS.

I don't think it would be that complicated for Apple.



My argument here is, why not have the bar a bit higher than say the 30% Apple sits at? Say 35%.

I'm not sure how they specifically came up with their gatekeeper/dominance criteria (which focuses on market cap, EU turnover, etc.) but as far as percentages go, iOS has over 35% share of mobile OS in at least nine or so EU member countries.
 
Just stating again my point that we don't need these rules. For the majority of people out there. They wouldn't use it. Just making holes in the OS for a sliver of the market that would occasionally to regularly use it.

Like I said, that is what you say. No survey to back it up so it is anecdotal.

I guess for some people governments can do no wrong.
In this instance, the government is largely right.

Apple doesn't have to sell iPhones. Can't make me.
Nobody is telling Apple to sell the phones or not sell the phones. They are just telling them that if they sell the phones, they have to adhere to certain laws. This applies to phones already sold too. Are they going to buy them back?

It will always be. They can comply or they can stop selling the device. Or they can stop selling the device with any NFC tech. Now what? They could just straight up disable it, or remove it from the EU model.
Why did Apple use NFC? Because it is a selling point. If there was no NFC, some people may not buy it. If it opens up NFC, more people may buy it. Removing NFC could harm iPhone sales.

I'd very much like to see the EU charge anyone a fine that goes on worldwide sales. They are drunk to even suggest this.
The DMA act clearly states that the fines could be up to a max of 10% of annual sales worldwide. They had already fined Google its revenue from 13 EU states. Why do you think they would make a law and ignore it?

No... seriously this is your question?
Just wanted to clarify if you thought so, because some of your responses smack of Apple's entitlement.

Did Apple break any laws that existed when they placed NFC tech in the iPhone? I'm sure they had to register it in every EU country before selling it. Someone read it (maybe, governments can be slow), and didn't say a law was broken by them not allowing direct access to the tech.

I'm sure there are going to be rules and regulations to follow for anything Apple makes even for internal use only.
Please provide references.

They can design anything they want. Those plans get submitted for approval with whatever government agencies around the world before any devices get sold. It has to comply BEFORE it's sold. Laws have been abided to as they were. EU and other governments wish to change the laws, and we are arguing about the fairness of these laws.
They do not have to worry. These are ex-ante laws. Apple complies with many regulations such as SOX act, software certifications, security certifications, hardware certifications and others. It also complies with trade regulations, privacy regulations, supplier responsibility regulations and others. One more would not make a huge difference.




It will always be up to Apple to do what they wish with the devices they make. No government can make Apple do anything they don't want to. If they choose to comply, that's Apple's ability to do so. If they choose not to, they can deal with the loss and or any consequences from that choice too. Neither the EU or the US are dictatorships. Or full socialists taking over industry whenever they want.
Absolutely, no government can regulate goods that are not sold. The problem is with goods that are sold. If they sell, they have to be compliant with the regulations. Goods include Apps in the Appstore. So, if Apple does not want to be bound by regulations, which are coming in almost all countries including the US, they have to either comply or exit the markets. If they choose the latter strategy, they will not be available anywhere unless they buy an island and make it a country and sell from there (their own laws, you know).

They could. But, and here is the BUT. Apple has lots of paying customers. And banks like money.
Yes, even if NFC is allowed for all, some banks might still opt for Apple pay as "one" of the channels. As you said, banks love money, so they may also look at other channels such as their own apps or other competing payment solutions.

They can try.
Well, we have seen what happened in Netherlands. It will happen worldwide. No government has any sympathy for bigtech.

Ok. I didn't know they had you in some kind of prison.
The reason for all the regulations..

So just use Android.
Did you even read the statement?

Or cease to exist in the EU.
Looking at how Apple bent backwards to protect its minuscule revenue in China, I think Apple is ready to contort itself like a pretzel to protect its revenue and income (which is 25% of its total revenue and income).

I doubt anyone is going to kick or scream at Apple. I'm sure many of you wish that was the case.
They will make a strategic decision to do what they feel is best for their company. That may or may not include leaving the EU over this BS. Or selling you scraps. Or just selling less.
You should read the statement again. Apple is the one that will is kicking and screaming.
 
Like I said, that is what you say. No survey to back it up so it is anecdotal.
Others said it, I got it from there. I'm not an Android user so I can't vouch for it. but, it was stated that 95% used the Google Play store even with side-loading and 3rd party stores available. Which is why I said, why are we bothering for 5%? Anecdotal or not, doesn't make a difference to me. If you wanted that feature badly enough, you can purchase an Android phone and be happy.
In this instance, the government is largely right.
I'm happy you believe and or think that. I don't.
Nobody is telling Apple to sell the phones or not sell the phones. They are just telling them that if they sell the phones, they have to adhere to certain laws. This applies to phones already sold too. Are they going to buy them back?
The laws they already follow until now. When the laws they are creating will affect how they do business.
I'm stating, they may not want to continue to do business in the EU because of these laws. Or, they may want to minimize how much business the do in the EU because of these laws. The rules they are creating state specific amounts of money made to become a gatekeeper, and subscribers or users. If you go under that amount, you could skirt any changes they are requesting. Maybe they fully comply? IDK. If I was them, I would tell the EU to change the E to F, but that's me.
Why did Apple use NFC? Because it is a selling point. If there was no NFC, some people may not buy it. If it opens up NFC, more people may buy it. Removing NFC could harm iPhone sales.
Why does Tesla use batteries instead of gas in their cars? Cause it's a selling point? Doesn't mean they have to let anyone else use their batters and or the software they use to make it work in their car. But I suppose if Tesla sold enough cars the EU would come for them too.

How Apple chooses to utilize NFC in the devices they make should be left to them to determine. If they wanted it open, they could let anyone use. Like Android phones do. But they think differently, and maybe just maybe they said for security reasons, why have another means in which to get into the device. If we limit its exposer, it shrinks the attack surface of the phone "while" also allowing for its use in Transit, or purchase (POS). Just a thought. But I'm sure it's because of money and they don't want anyone else to cut in on their action.
The DMA act clearly states that the fines could be up to a max of 10% of annual sales worldwide.
And?
They had already fined Google its revenue from 13 EU states. Why do you think they would make a law and ignore it?
I'm sure they will not ignore it. And I'm sure Google broke whatever law the EU wrote. I said I don't agree with all the laws the EU have come up with. This Gatekeeper law being one of them.
Just wanted to clarify if you thought so, because some of your responses smack of Apple's entitlement.
I'm not entitled to anything. I pay for what I want. I'm very aware of the choices I have and make the one best for me. I'm only suggesting that others do the same. Vote with your money if you want change. It works faster, and in the long run works better.
Object all they want. Why does Apple have to let anyone else use tech on the device they made? I know you referring to NFC here, which they didn't totally make. BUT, they also want access to the rest of the system. All of it.

Are they charging anyone to use the Wallet App? I mean if you make a transaction via the Wallet App and use VISA/MC/AMEX/DISC/NYCE/JCB/UnionPay/etc. Does Apple get a cut? If the answer is no, then how is it anticompetitive of Apple to make them use this one means for transacting with NFC? I'm currently not finding an answer by my quick searching.

If Apple was more like intel or AMD and just sold chips and such and you can do with it what you wish. That would be one thing. But, they are not that. They make a lot of the technology inside an iPhone, and source parts they don't make from others. But, even with those sourced 3rd party parts. They still customize it to what they want it to do vs what others do. Which is just put it out and let the developers figure it out. Hence the choice the consumer has when purchasing an iPhone vs an Android. You get a complete package that one company thinks is the right way to do it. If they are wrong, and or you don't like it. You can pick from another manufacture(s) that will do something closer to what you want it to be.
Please provide references.
I'll get right on that.
They do not have to worry. These are ex-ante laws. Apple complies with many regulations such as SOX act, software certifications, security certifications, hardware certifications and others. It also complies with trade regulations, privacy regulations, supplier responsibility regulations and others. One more would not make a huge difference.



And yet the rules in place are not enough.
Absolutely, no government can regulate goods that are not sold. The problem is with goods that are sold. If they sell, they have to be compliant with the regulations.
Apparently because they are too big, they have to comply with new rules too.
Goods include Apps in the Appstore. So, if Apple does not want to be bound by regulations, which are coming in almost all countries including the US, they have to either comply or exit the markets.
I'm for exiting markets, and let them eat cake. I mean Android.
If they choose the latter strategy, they will not be available anywhere unless they buy an island and make it a country and sell from there (their own laws, you know).
They have enough money to do this you know. Don't put it past them. If Elon Musk can attempt to put a human on Mars before any government can. Anything is possible.
Yes, even if NFC is allowed for all, some banks might still opt for Apple pay as "one" of the channels. As you said, banks love money, so they may also look at other channels such as their own apps or other competing payment solutions.
Again, I'm looking for what Apple charges the banks for using the Wallet. I'm seeing references to Apple being a TAP and collecting about .15-.16% for the ability to perform the token-assurance provider function. So, it would be about the same if some other provider did it. Otherwise they don't charge anything to merchant, user, or card company. So maybe not so big a deal? IDK.
Well, we have seen what happened in Netherlands. It will happen worldwide. No government has any sympathy for bigtech.
27% goes to Apple. They saved a whopping 3% for all that? And will most likely cost them that much to do it themselves. Whoohoo....
The reason for all the regulations..
Keep them coming EU. I'm sure the next big thing will come from one of those member countries any day now.
Did you even read the statement?
Nope
Looking at how Apple bent backwards to protect its minuscule revenue in China, I think Apple is ready to contort itself like a pretzel to protect its revenue and income (which is 25% of its total revenue and income).
China is a different market.
You should read the statement again. Apple is the one that will is kicking and screaming.
Ok, if you say so.
 
  • Angry
Reactions: Shirasaki
Others said it, I got it from there. I'm not an Android user so I can't vouch for it. but, it was stated that 95% used the Google Play store even with side-loading and 3rd party stores available. Which is why I said, why are we bothering for 5%? Anecdotal or not, doesn't make a difference to me. If you wanted that feature badly enough, you can purchase an Android phone and be happy.

A lot of people have said that they want the freedom to do whatever they want. That's why there is a community that works on Jailbreaks. Do you know that there are shops that get paid for jailbreaking iPhones for people who cannot themselves jailbreak in many countries? So, I am assuming it is an overwhelming endorsement for the DMA changes.

I'm happy you believe and or think that. I don't.
That's fine.

The laws they already follow until now. When the laws they are creating will affect how they do business.
I'm stating, they may not want to continue to do business in the EU because of these laws. Or, they may want to minimize how much business the do in the EU because of these laws. The rules they are creating state specific amounts of money made to become a gatekeeper, and subscribers or users. If you go under that amount, you could skirt any changes they are requesting. Maybe they fully comply? IDK. If I was them, I would tell the EU to change the E to F, but that's me.
The limits are not set in concrete. If Apple tries its shenanigans again, the EU might change the limits for designating a company as a Gatekeeper. We do not know as we are treading uncharted territory. If they minimize the amount of business they do in the EU, somebody who will comply with the rules will take up the slack. But seriously, do you think a company that would bend over backwards to simply protect a 12% market share would completely loose the EU market?


Why does Tesla use batteries instead of gas in their cars? Cause it's a selling point? Doesn't mean they have to let anyone else use their batters and or the software they use to make it work in their car. But I suppose if Tesla sold enough cars the EU would come for them too.

You can check Tesla's mission statement. You can determine if going the EV route is a selling point for them or not.
Well, Tesla’s batteries are particularly power-dense, but they come from Panasonic. Literally any automaker could buy the same cells from them.
Nobody is asking Apple to give away their software. Opening up APIs is not the same.

How Apple chooses to utilize NFC in the devices they make should be left to them to determine. If they wanted it open, they could let anyone use. Like Android phones do. But they think differently, and maybe just maybe they said for security reasons, why have another means in which to get into the device. If we limit its exposer, it shrinks the attack surface of the phone "while" also allowing for its use in Transit, or purchase (POS). Just a thought. But I'm sure it's because of money and they don't want anyone else to cut in on their action.
It really does not matter what Apple wants, right? This is not Apple country. The EU has framed the laws so that Apple is no longer in doubt about who determines who has access to hardware features for which customers have already paid. If they don't sell the phones, the attack vector would be incredibly small so would you welcome it? If Apple is incompetent to protect its phone from attacks unless it is closed, then shame on Apple. There has been no other popular OS that has followed this path, as far as I know.

And?
I'm sure they will not ignore it. And I'm sure Google broke whatever law the EU wrote. I said I don't agree with all the laws the EU has come up with. This Gatekeeper law being one of them.
I'm sure nobody enjoys the taxation laws. The majority still adhere to them; some try to circumvent them illegally and may or may not be caught. The really rich can use loopholes to legally circumvent those laws. If Apple is a law-abiding company, it would suck up and comply. You should be happy they are a law-abiding company which has a history of abiding by the laws of the country as witnessed by the alacrity with which they handed over the data of Chinese people to Chinese government. They will do so here also. You may be disappointed if you expect backbone from them.

I'm not entitled to anything. I pay for what I want. I'm very aware of the choices I have and make the one best for me. I'm only suggesting that others do the same. Vote with your money if you want change. It works faster, and in the long run works better.
Sorry for giving the wrong impression that I was talking about your entitlement. That was not the idea. I'm not talking about your entitlement. You feel that Apple is entitled. I'm saying Apple is not entitled to anything other than the price we pay for their devices or their Apps. Nothing else.

Object all they want. Why does Apple have to let anyone else use tech on the device they made? I know you referring to NFC here, which they didn't totally make. BUT, they also want access to the rest of the system. All of it.
See, this is the entitlement that I am talking about. They sold the phone. We paid for them. They're are not entitled to anything after that.

Are they charging anyone to use the Wallet App? I mean if you make a transaction via the Wallet App and use VISA/MC/AMEX/DISC/NYCE/JCB/UnionPay/etc. Does Apple get a cut? If the answer is no, then how is it anticompetitive of Apple to make them use this one means for transacting with NFC? I'm currently not finding an answer by my quick searching.
There is a class action suit in the USA that the payment card companies. That will answer all your questions.

If Apple was more like intel or AMD and just sold chips and such and you can do with it what you wish. That would be one thing. But, they are not that. They make a lot of the technology inside an iPhone, and source parts they don't make from others. But, even with those sourced 3rd party parts. They still customize it to what they want it to do vs what others do. Which is just put it out and let the developers figure it out. Hence the choice the consumer has when purchasing an iPhone vs an Android. You get a complete package that one company thinks is the right way to do it. If they are wrong, and or you don't like it. You can pick from another manufacture(s) that will do something closer to what you want it to be.
Android is being given away for free. Yet it faces similar scrutiny. Why do you think Apple, which sells its devices for an exorbitant price, be given leeway? That's is an example of the entitlement that I was talking about. They made the device and we paid for it. There ends the matter.

I'll get right on that.

And yet the rules in place are not enough.
Each rule covers a different aspect. Therefore, the rules are not enough as they need rules to cover all aspects.

Apparently because they are too big, they have to comply with new rules too.
Obviously. When Apple can make new rules for managing its Appstore regularly and expects developers to adhere to them, why should the EU not make new rules and expect Apple (and others) to adhere to them?

I'm for exiting markets, and let them eat cake. I mean Android.
News for you. They're not going to. They will capitulate.

They have enough money to do this you know. Don't put it past them. If Elon Musk can attempt to put a human on Mars before any government can. Anything is possible.
All the best.

Again, I'm looking for what Apple charges the banks for using the Wallet. I'm seeing references to Apple being a TAP and collecting about .15-.16% for the ability to perform the token-assurance provider function. So, it would be about the same if some other provider did it. Otherwise, they don't charge anything to merchant, user, or card company. So maybe not so big a deal? IDK.
Whatever Apple charges is on top of what the payment card companies charge. Nobody's telling Apple they cannot charge it. They're telling Apple that it has to allow access to the NFC for other companies so that the companies can decide if paying Apple tax is worth it or it is better to go on their own. Compete fairly. Not unfairly by withholding access to others.

27% goes to Apple. They saved a whopping 3% for all that? And will most likely cost them that much to do it themselves. Whoohoo....
1. Apple later amended that saying it will be 12% for those who were paying 15% and 27% for those who were paying 30%.
2. There is still a second part of the suit that is being kept under wraps, at Apple's insistence. That is awaiting court ruling. It is about the 30% cut Apple takes. There will be a ruling about this later.

"App providers pay 99 US dollars each year for using the App Store. Almost 85 percent of app providers pay only this fee. These are small businesses, but also major companies such as Amazon, Booking or Uber. If an app provider wishes to offer paid services or subscriptions within its app (like dating apps), Apple imposes additional conditions. [suspended]* This situation applies to slightly over 15 percent of all app providers. [suspended]*

ACM is of the opinion that these conditions are not proportional to the additional payment service. Furthermore, the conditions are not necessary for running the App Store. That is why ACM considers these conditions to be unreasonable and in violation of competition rules."

I'm ignoring the rest as they do not contribute to the discussion.
 
Just stating again my point that we don't need these rules. For the majority of people out there. They wouldn't use it. Just making holes in the OS for a sliver of the market that would occasionally to regularly use it.
I'm not an Android user so I can't vouch for it. but, it was stated that 95% used the Google Play store even with side-loading and 3rd party stores available. Which is why I said, why are we bothering for 5%? Anecdotal or not, doesn't make a difference to me.
If little in consumer behaviour is going to change anyway, why are you getting all worked up about these rules? You will be able to enjoy the walled garden Apple confines you in just the same as you do now.

Yet there’d still be good reason to make these rules: If Apple gets to do whatever they want - as you demand - what is preventing Apple from jacking app App Store commissions to 35%, 50% or 70% tomorrow? Or demand a share of any „physical“ services transaction conducted on iPhones? Like, you know, the public transport apps selling their tickets on iPhones? Or, you know, booting competitors like Spotify from the App Store outright?

The competition? Android? Give me a break. There has been enough evidence of Apple and Google colluding in their commission pricing. It would be very damaging to markets if they did - and inhibit innovation. And this law addresses the problem: it‘ll provide a safety mechanism to keep Apple in check. Checked and balanced, so to speak.

There’s another reason why you may advocate as hard against these rules:
You believe the lies and the FUD Apple is serving you and the press:
Just making holes in the OS
The more you dig into things, the less is true about that. For instance, as I‘ve repeatedly said, sideloading is possible today - they’re just preventing the good guys from using it.
 
PS: With regard to NFC access, this about sums it up:

„Apple has the technical chops to figure out a safe way to free up its NFC capabilities to outside services.

After all, the company is already planning to do just that for merchants, which will be able to use the tap-to-pay feature to accept certain credit cards and smartphones via third-party apps. In other words, Apple will let users take payments via NFC but not make them


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/news...apple-aapl-iphone-nfc-for-tap-to-pay-l2xckg5e

Yes, third-party apps can charge me and take payment (and read loyalty cards) - but not let me make payments.

Locking down NFC for payments is obviously not primarily about security and privacy.
 
Last edited:
PS: With regard to NFC access, this about sums it up:

„Apple has the technical chops to figure out a safe way to free up its NFC capabilities to outside services.

After all, the company is already planning to do just that for merchants, which will be able to use the tap-to-pay feature to accept certain credit cards and smartphones via third-party apps. In other words, Apple will let users take payments via NFC but not make them


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/news...apple-aapl-iphone-nfc-for-tap-to-pay-l2xckg5e
Do consumers actually want that though? Everything about this should focus on what’s best for and what consumers want.

Has the EU ensured to take consumers views when crafting legislation?
 
Last edited:
Do consumers actually want that though? Everything about this should focus on what’s best for and what consumers want.

Has the EU ensured to take consumers views when crafting legislation?
A lot of things apple have made for his nobody asked for or knew they wanted.

Now that this is free the market will show if people actually asked for it or not.

Eu cares for the market as well.
It’s not only about the consumer
 
A lot of things apple have made for his nobody asked for or knew they wanted.

Now that this is free the market will show if people actually asked for it or not.

Eu cares for the market as well.
It’s not only about the consumer

Is that really true though? When consumers have been given the option of multiple app stores on android, what did they pick? When consumers have been given the option of multiple NFC payment systems on android, what did they pick?
 
A lot of people have said that they want the freedom to do whatever they want. That's why there is a community that works on Jailbreaks.
There is a community that likes to build their own PC's, build their own Hackintosh's, rockets.
I'm pretty sure you can do whatever you wish to the iPhone you bought. Apple doesn't sell you a device with that in mind.
Do you know that there are shops that get paid for jailbreaking iPhones for people who cannot themselves jailbreak in many countries? So, I am assuming it is an overwhelming endorsement for the DMA changes.
People pay for Amazon firesticks that gets them any Movie, channel or station world wide. With a monthly subscription to the pirate-shop to boot. The alternative is called Cable or finding a satellite provider. People will do whatever they can get away with. Same as your EU.
That's fine.
Excellent.
The limits are not set in concrete.
I'm agreeing with you on that. Since success is fluid, let's keep the laws that way. Wouldn't want Apple to get even more successful with these new laws in place.
If Apple tries its shenanigans again, the EU might change the limits for designating a company as a Gatekeeper.
I'm loving the EU more and more. Must be nice having so much free time on their hands to pay so close attention to what Apple is doing.
We do not know as we are treading uncharted territory.
You don't say. Well, nothing like throwing $#!T at the wall to see what sticks. I'm sure it will get sorted out over time. It will all be fine.
If they minimize the amount of business they do in the EU, somebody who will comply with the rules will take up the slack.
So just like if someone decided to compete with another product? I'm not believing this one. No one will dethrone Apple's dominance. Someone(s) will create a black market to import the contraband iPhones into the EU.
But seriously, do you think a company that would bend over backwards to simply protect a 12% market share would completely loose the EU market?
I've said many times, I'm not Apple. I can't tell you what they will or will not do. None of us here "are" Apple either. We are all guessing/presuming what they will do (educated or not). Based on the rules set forth by these governments. And being that Apple is an American company, and they do a lot of good which I don't see anyone on your side of the argument pointing out. Only the negatives.

They are a business/company publicly traded, so they have to make a profit if they are to continue operating. Their board may not see the value in staying in the EU with the laws that are coming. The folks that run the company may come up with clever ways to operate within the laws that are coming. And the EU can tac the ship yet again.
People here complain that there is a lack of innovation. And that Apples walled garden is too restrictive, and they don't let you do this and they don't let you do that. Blah blah blah. Meanwhile, your other device manufactures ALL copy Apple. So I have no doubt that if Apple left the EU or lowered their sales etc to be under the laws requirements. That some other company would fill the void. You're just going to be left with that other company filling the void, while wishing Apple was more available. You will get less choice, and more crap. You're welcome.
You can check Tesla's mission statement. You can determine if going the EV route is a selling point for them or not.
Well, Tesla’s batteries are particularly power-dense, but they come from Panasonic. Literally any automaker could buy the same cells from them.
Nobody is asking Apple to give away their software. Opening up APIs is not the same.
Ah yeah its a selling point for them. Elon wanted to sell electric cars, so he is.
I didn't say give away their software, I said access to the hardware same as Apple has. And I don't agree with that.
The access they have via the Wallet App in my opinion is how it should be and how it currently is. Access via the limited means provided.
It really does not matter what Apple wants, right? This is not Apple country. The EU has framed the laws so that Apple is no longer in doubt about who determines who has access to hardware features for which customers have already paid.
Nothing stopping you from going to those shops to jailbreak the devices after you purchased it. Why should Apple have to write software that allows direct access? Why should the craft the OS to all what you wish? If you wanted it to do that, you can go jailbreak it. Or just buy and Android device that already lets. you.
If they don't sell the phones, the attack vector would be incredibly small so would you welcome it?
Lived this life for many decades on the Mac.
If Apple is incompetent to protect its phone from attacks unless it is closed, then shame on Apple.
It's not incompetence. Its a choice and a philosophy. It is simply easier and "better" in their approach to protect the device. Limit access in and out while also allowing the device to function in an easy to use way. A 2 year old or a 102 year old can use their device.
There has been no other popular OS that has followed this path, as far as I know.
Somethings take time.
I'm sure nobody enjoys the taxation laws. The majority still adhere to them; some try to circumvent them illegally and may or may not be caught. The really rich can use loopholes to legally circumvent those laws. If Apple is a law-abiding company, it would suck up and comply. You should be happy they are a law-abiding company which has a history of abiding by the laws of the country as witnessed by the alacrity with which they handed over the data of Chinese people to Chinese government. They will do so here also. You may be disappointed if you expect backbone from them.
I expect Apple to do what is best for Apple and its shareholders.
Sorry for giving the wrong impression that I was talking about your entitlement. That was not the idea. I'm not talking about your entitlement. You feel that Apple is entitled. I'm saying Apple is not entitled to anything other than the price we pay for their devices or their Apps. Nothing else.
I'm not saying Apple is entitled either. They made a product based on the rules at the time, and continued to follow those rules. If they broke any rules, they got nailed for it. These "new" sets of rules I'm not agreeing make sense or are right, but the EU is free to implement it and see what happens. I'm saying Apple doesn't have to do anything Apple doesn't want to do in the EU. If they choose to leave or lessen their EU businesses they are free to do so. And I expect Google in pick up the slack and the EU to see Android go to 80-90% dominance.

And as a shareholder. I expect returns on my investments and for Apple to continue to innovate and grow their business.
See, this is the entitlement that I am talking about. They sold the phone. We paid for them. They're are not entitled to anything after that.


There is a class action suit in the USA that the payment card companies. That will answer all your questions.


Android is being given away for free. Yet it faces similar scrutiny. Why do you think Apple, which sells its devices for an exorbitant price, be given leeway? That's is an example of the entitlement that I was talking about. They made the device and we paid for it. There ends the matter.




Each rule covers a different aspect. Therefore, the rules are not enough as they need rules to cover all aspects.


Obviously. When Apple can make new rules for managing its Appstore regularly and expects developers to adhere to them, why should the EU not make new rules and expect Apple (and others) to adhere to them?


News for you. They're not going to. They will capitulate.


All the best.


Whatever Apple charges is on top of what the payment card companies charge. Nobody's telling Apple they cannot charge it. They're telling Apple that it has to allow access to the NFC for other companies so that the companies can decide if paying Apple tax is worth it or it is better to go on their own. Compete fairly. Not unfairly by withholding access to others.


1. Apple later amended that saying it will be 12% for those who were paying 15% and 27% for those who were paying 30%.
2. There is still a second part of the suit that is being kept under wraps, at Apple's insistence. That is awaiting court ruling. It is about the 30% cut Apple takes. There will be a ruling about this later.

"App providers pay 99 US dollars each year for using the App Store. Almost 85 percent of app providers pay only this fee. These are small businesses, but also major companies such as Amazon, Booking or Uber. If an app provider wishes to offer paid services or subscriptions within its app (like dating apps), Apple imposes additional conditions. [suspended]* This situation applies to slightly over 15 percent of all app providers. [suspended]*

ACM is of the opinion that these conditions are not proportional to the additional payment service. Furthermore, the conditions are not necessary for running the App Store. That is why ACM considers these conditions to be unreasonable and in violation of competition rules."

I'm ignoring the rest as they do not contribute to the discussion.
I may come back to the rest of this later. Have things to do.
 
Do consumers actually want that though? Everything about this should focus on what’s best for and what consumers want.

Has the EU ensured to take consumers views when crafting legislation?
The Eu doesn't care. The crafted the law with surgical precision to catch some, but not all companies into the net. It's not good for the ecosystem, it's not good for tech. And the EU will find, imo, it's not good for the EU over time.

Don't know what Apple's response will be: cave or fight or pull-out. But if Apple sees this as the destruction of their ecosystem, I can see some type of retrenchment over time.
 
Do consumers actually want that though? Everything about this should focus on what’s best for and what consumers want.

Has the EU ensured to take consumers views when crafting legislation?
I‘ll tell you what consumers want:

- They want to have choice in smartphones
- They want to have choice in banks and payment cards (and apps)
- They want to make payments with their smartphones

- They don’t want fragmentation in their user experience (lock screen wallet)
- They don’t want to have their choice of smartphone device/OS tied to their choice of payment card/bank (or app)
- They don’t want to have their choice of smartphone tied to one or two „small“ particular features (or apps) and lose out on all of the other advantages or benefits of their preferred platform, by being told: Oh, so you want an iPhone for all intents and purposes, but yeah, regarding that one thing you mentioned … go, **** off and use an Android

👉 Apple is undeniably very good at all of these things: The desirable ones and the undesirable ones. So yes, legislation aimed at interoperability and outlawing the unilateral „gatekeeping“ and tying-together of useful functionality is very welcome legislation from a consumer perspective.

The Eu doesn't care. The crafted the law with surgical precision to catch some, but not all companies into the net. It's not good for the ecosystem, it's not good for tech. And the EU will find, imo, it's not good for the EU over time.
The EU cared. They crafted a law with surgical precision to catch some, but not all payment card schemes into the net. Regulating what they could do was very good for the ecosystem.

Costs of card acceptance declined, as did card fraud. Payment security for consumers increased as did card acceptance (significantly), as did competition.

The EU has successfully proven that they can craft legislation aimed at duopolies and their business practices - for the benefits of dozens of thousands smaller businesses and millions of consumers.

So… we‘ll see how this will pan out.
 
Last edited:
[...]

The EU cared. They crafted a law with surgical precision to catch some, but not all payment card schemes into the net. Regulating what they could do was very good for the ecosystem.

Costs of card acceptance declined, as did card fraud. Payment security for consumers increased as did card acceptance (significantly), as did competition.

The EU has successfully proven that they can craft legislation aimed at duopolies and their business practices - for the benefits of dozens of thousands smaller businesses and millions of consumers.

So… we‘ll see how this will pan out.
We disagree on whether the EU cares, whether it picks on American tech, whether this will be good for anyone, whether this cause the ecosystem to collapse and what will Apple do.

But horses for course and we will see how this will pan out.
 
I‘ll tell you what consumers want:

- They want to have choice in smartphones
- They want to have choice in banks and payment cards (and apps)
- They want to make payments with their smartphones

- They don’t want fragmentation in their user experience (lock screen wallet)
- They don’t want to have their choice of smartphone device/OS tied to their choice of payment card/bank (or app)
- They don’t want to have their choice of smartphone tied to one or two „small“ particular features (or apps) and lose out on all of the other advantages or benefits of their preferred platform, by being told: Oh, so you want an iPhone for all intents and purposes, but yeah, regarding that one thing you mentioned … go, **** off and use an Android

👉 Apple is undeniably very good at all of these things: The desirable ones and the undesirable ones. So yes, legislation aimed at interoperability and outlawing the unilateral „gatekeeping“ and tying-together of useful functionality is very welcome legislation from a consumer perspective.


The EU cared. They crafted a law with surgical precision to catch some, but not all payment card schemes into the net. Regulating what they could do was very good for the ecosystem.

Costs of card acceptance declined, as did card fraud. Payment security for consumers increased as did card acceptance (significantly), as did competition.

The EU has successfully proven that they can craft legislation aimed at duopolies and their business practices - for the benefits of dozens of thousands smaller businesses and millions of consumers.

So… we‘ll see how this will pan out.
What are your sources/research for what consumers want?
 
whether it picks on American tech, whether this will be good for anyone, whether this cause the ecosystem to collapse
- It picks on the biggest and most dominating tech. Not out of being anti-American or for being American. It's just that America tolerates anticompetitive business practises much more and longer to allow such "gatekeepers" to emerge.
- It will definitely be good for some businesses and consumers
- The ecosystem won't collapse (as even some of the law's detractors here like djphat2000 concede) as Apple has shown being able and willing to adapt in order to continue sales.
What are your sources/research for what consumers want?
Personal observation and talking to customers.
I've sold and supported Apple devices to consumers for many years.

It is admittedly just my impression, so you may disagree :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sophisticatednut
- It picks on the biggest and most dominating tech. Not out of being anti-American or for being American. It's just that America tolerates anticompetitive business practises much more and longer to allow such "gatekeepers" to emerge.
- It will definitely be good for some businesses and consumers
- The ecosystem won't collapse (as even some of the law's detractors here like djphat2000 concede) as Apple has shown being able and willing to adapt in order to continue sales.

Personal observation and talking to customers.
I've sold and supported Apple devices to consumers for many years.

It is admittedly just my impression, so you may disagree :)
It doesn’t represent any of the people who I know with iPhones, that’s for sure.
 
If little in consumer behaviour is going to change anyway, why are you getting all worked up about these rules? You will be able to enjoy the walled garden Apple confines you in just the same as you do now.
Security. I've stated this.
Yet there’d still be good reason to make these rules: If Apple gets to do whatever they want - as you demand - what is preventing Apple from jacking app App Store commissions to 35%, 50% or 70% tomorrow?
Ahh, cause they haven't. The whole time the store existed it's been 30% or LESS.
Or demand a share of any „physical“ services transaction conducted on iPhones? Like, you know, the public transport apps selling their tickets on iPhones? Or, you know, booting competitors like Spotify from the App Store outright?
Cause they have done neither, or all of what you stated.
The competition? Android? Give me a break. There has been enough evidence of Apple and Google colluding in their commission pricing. It would be very damaging to markets if they did - and inhibit innovation. And this law addresses the problem: it‘ll provide a safety mechanism to keep Apple in check. Checked and balanced, so to speak.
Apple started with 30/70 split. Google copied.
Apple lowered it to 15% for those developers making less than $1 million (US dollars) per year. Google copied it.
I believe, it is the same with exception of the Netherlands getting that 3% break if they go their own payment way.
I can't speak to any colluding between Apple and Google. And this insistence that we are lacking innovation.
Or that Apple and or Google is inhibiting it is non-sense. You don't have anything to talk about if it wasn't for these companies. Your phone would have physical buttons still and no apps to speak of.

There’s another reason why you may advocate as hard against these rules:You believe the lies and the FUD Apple is serving you and the press:
Here's what I believe. I can vote with my dollars. So if I don't like what I'm getting for any product. I can purchase something else.
I can LIVE life without an iPhone or an Android phone. I can pay my bills online with a computer. I can purchase items with a physical credit card or CASH. I can prove my identity with a physical drivers/passport/document card of whatever kind. I can eat, drink, #@$%, and travel the world if I so choose to without a mobile phone.

I happen to prefer Apple's devices as they are and as they make them vs an Android device. Of which there are many to pick from, that I am very sure I could find an alternative to Apple's brand if I really wanted to. I just haven't given it any thought as I'm happy with what I have.

I'm very much on the principles of these laws. And yes it does affect a company that I enjoy buying products from and invest in. I do think the EU is a little off put by these US based companies with the marketshare they enjoy and they don't like it. If there was a good EU company making mobiles that had 36% share of the market. Even with Apple sitting at 30-35%. They wouldn't be making these rules.
The more you dig into things, the less is true about that. For instance, as I‘ve repeatedly said, sideloading is possible today
On Android, we know.
they’re just preventing the good guys from using it.
They don't want anyone to side-load on the iPhone or iPad.
 
- It picks on the biggest and most dominating tech. Not out of being anti-American or for being American. It's just that America tolerates anticompetitive business practises much more and longer to allow such "gatekeepers" to emerge.
- It will definitely be good for some businesses and consumers
- The ecosystem won't collapse (as even some of the law's detractors here like djphat2000 concede) as Apple has shown being able and willing to adapt in order to continue sales.

[..]
The law picks on the most popular by consumer choice. It will be worse for many, many more than its good for. It will be worse for consumers, most devs, the ecosystem.
 
Security. I've stated this.
True - but so what? I don't see how that would be impacted for you by this legislation?
can LIVE life without an iPhone or an Android phone. I can pay my bills online with a computer
Yes, you can, in theory and practice, live without a smartphone.

Here's what I believe: It's just much more convenient if you don't (live without one). More and more banks require one, GPS-enabled Maps are incredibly helpful, and groups of people communicate with messenger apps.

These types of devices are becoming more and more integral tools/utilities in people's everyday lives.
That's why these platforms should be regulated.
If there was a good EU company making mobiles that had 36% share of the market. Even with Apple sitting at 30-35%. They wouldn't be making these rules.
I don't see why.
Except for that the fact that Europe doesn't tolerate the kind of anticompetitive behaviour as much as the US in the first place.
On Android, we know.
...and on iOS as well.
They don't want anyone to side-load on the iPhone or iPad.
Yes. Cause helps them make more money.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Sophisticatednut
Security. I've stated this.
No evidence exist outside of opinions. Not even apple have proved this yet. And until proven otherwise we can expect a negligible difference.
Ahh, cause they haven't. The whole time the store existed it's been 30% or LESS.

Cause they have done neither, or all of what you stated.
You could argue the same thing for a benevolent dictator. Rules should still be implemented to protect the consumers before harm is done, not after it’s done.

Currently apple could hike the price and nobody would do anything, and that’s a problem
Here's what I believe. I can vote with my dollars. So if I don't like what I'm getting for any product. I can purchase something else.
I can LIVE life without an iPhone or an Android phone. I can pay my bills online with a computer. I can purchase items with a physical credit card or CASH. I can prove my identity with a physical drivers/passport/document card of whatever kind. I can eat, drink, #@$%, and travel the world if I so choose to without a mobile phone.
Voting with your dollars makes no sense when it comes to expensive markets.

If you have AT&T and they are the only providers for the house you bought, and just because their routers suck or service suck, will you then go and buy a completely differentl house or install a new cable to change cable provider?

Oh I bought 2.000$ iPhone, and it can’t provide one tiny thing I want so I will spend 2.000$ for an android phone.

Compared to: I don’t like the AppStore, so I will like at the steam store for an iPhone app.
I'm very much on the principles of these laws. And yes it does affect a company that I enjoy buying products from and invest in. I do think the EU is a little off put by these US based companies with the marketshare they enjoy and they don't like it. If there was a good EU company making mobiles that had 36% share of the market. Even with Apple sitting at 30-35%. They wouldn't be making these rules.
This is completely made out of ignorance. EU don’t care about market share, but the influence they bring. Apple have a bigger influence with their 30% than googles android with 70% does.

And secondly EU intervene all the time with EU firms. The foundation of some of the laws comes from EU firms breaking the law such as SAS trying to argue APIs are copytgitable.
On Android, we know.
This includes iOS, and have for close to a decade with enterprise signature of apps ro be installed later.
They don't want anyone to side-load on the iPhone or iPad.
Do you have any numbers backing’s this?
 
True - but so what? I don't see how that would be impacted for you by this legislation?
For pete sake. So what? We use the same OS! I don't get to pick an OS that doesn't have that new opening. We all get to use it.
Yes, you can, in theory and practice, live without a smartphone.
Not in theory. This isn't something one has to really examine. You CAN live without it. it's not air, water, food, or shelter. It's not even fuel or energy. You know, the important things in life. Which by my last account, practically every single government is doing a bang up job regulating to perfection.
Here's what I believe: It's just much more convenient if you don't (live without one).
Of course, it's a convenience. So is a computer or a car. And I would argue I need my car more than my phone and my computer. And I make a living with computers. But to get to work, for me anyway. I need a car. To each is own.
More and more banks require one
I work for a bank. I call BS on this one. We have a website. We have mobile apps for banking. We don't require you have a mobile phone to setup an account with us. We still have bank by phone, as in call.
I understand there are many banks that don't even have a physical location. And unless the EU plans on phasing out physical locations to bank at. I think you still have a choice to use it or not.
GPS-enabled Maps are incredibly helpful, and groups of people communicate with messenger apps.
All are conveniences yes.
These types of devices are becoming more and more integral tools/utilities in people's everyday lives.
That's why these platforms should be regulated.
This is the opinion. We disagree on the reasoning to regulate. Not that regulation isn't a good thing when used correctly. I see no reason to regulate a company with 30-35% marketshare. I see no reason to treat them as a power-hungry greedy monopoly. When they are not. I see no reason to regulate them more because they "could" or "might" abuse their market power. When they have not done so.
I don't see why.
Except for that the fact that Europe doesn't tolerate the kind of anticompetitive behavior as much as the US in the first place.
Ok.
...and on iOS as well.

Yes. Cause helps them make more money.
That's what business do. I guess not in the EU though.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.