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I have explained this multiple times already. The EU has been designed to be as far from it's citizens as possible. It's absolutely not a Democracy.
That means absolutely nothing to me, it just feels like rhetoric.
I enjoy liberties, laws and projects provided by the EU on a daily basis. I vote to choose who represents me in the EU parliament. Its policies are usually way closer to my interests than my own utterly corrupt country. I love having that superior control over my politicians when they violate obvious principles. You can explain something a thousand times, it doesn't matter to me if I know for sure it's an exaggeration (not to call it an uninformed lie).
I'm also very aware the EU has primarily economic interests and I don't agree with many of their methods. But I don't see how that's different from any other national state.

Anyway, in this specific case, my country could do almost nothing alone to protect me from being forced into a monopoly. The EU can. I've been wanting a more free development path on Apple devices for a long time, as a user (jailbroken my first iPod Mini a couple decades ago) and as a developer for the last decade (I pay Apple their share and I'm also forced to buy horribly overpriced, unupgradable and unrepairable Macs every few years).
This is one of the EU laws that are closer to me. Even if you were right and the EU was designed for some evil plan, this is obviously not the case where it's bad for citizens.
 
This is beyond ridiculous at this point. I normally wouldn't be one to jump to "Apple should just stop doing business in the EU," but I almost want them to do it and call their bluff - see how folks like it when all their devices are no longer supported and you can't buy any new tech. Watch how quickly folks would turn against the morons litigating this. I know it's not realistic, but if I were Apple I'd find this infuriating.
I've said for years that Microsoft, Google, and Apple need to jointly announce they are leaving. I promise it would hurt the EU more than those companies in the long term. Think about it. No computers, no good phones, no servers, no OS for computers. They'd tap out quick.
 
There are at LEAST 3 operating systems for tablets:

1. iPad OS
2. Android
3. Windows (Surface)
4. Linux

Also there are Linux os-es for phones.
And sure Nokia's Symbian and Blackberry's OS have been discontinued. But there is still choice.
Look at the following chart and tell me you see a healthy competition in the mobile operating systems space:

 
if anti-competitiveness is a problem, they should fine european companies for failing to be competitive

If that were the case, they might as well have also fined Apple for being "anti-competitive" for not offering Safari on Windows, Android, etc. Fined Apple for being "anti-competitive" for not offering iOS on Samsung, Motorola, Google, etc. phones to compete with Android. Fined Apple for being "anti-competitive" for not offering macOS on Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. computers to compete with Windows. Fined Apple for being "anti-competitive" for not offering a search engine to compete with Google, Bing, etc. And so on. It simply doesn't work that way.
 
I vote to choose who represents me in the EU parliament.

That's the only thing you can vote for. And they (the EU parliament) do NOT create the legislation. They ONLY vote.

Its policies are usually way closer to my interests than my own utterly corrupt country.
You should know who vote for the parties in the European Comission. It's the government of your own (corrupt) country. And THEY are the ones making the legislation.

I love having that superior control over my politicians when they violate obvious principles.
Hahahahahaha funny. See ^

(not to call it an uninformed lie).
It's not, it's literally how the EU was designed. You only have something that looks like a democracy from the outside. But it's not, it never was and never will be. And that is by design.
 
The whole EU anti-apple thing is getting to be exhausting ... and laughable.

Name one hardware manufacturer whether computers, vehicles, smart devices, smart tvs, smart appliances, etc that is FORCED to open up their operating system, to allow different app stores, alternative sale methods, ...

I don't see VW AUDI BMW Mercedes etc ... or Samsung, Sony, Philips, etc ... forced to allow me to use a different app store, different payment systems, ...

Every manufacturer does R&D, tries to get ahead, tries to keep things secure ... and not a single system or platform is OPEN ... but when it is Apple, arguably the more secure and privacy oriented among the leading three ... it is a problem. Sigh.

Not really a fair comparison. Given that dominance by two major players in the mobile app store and mobile OS markets, Apple has much more power and control of app sales in the mobile app store market (at particular issue here) and the mobile OS market than any of those companies have in markets they operate in.
 
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It’s not Apple’s fault that nobody else is willing to invest in their own mobile ecosystem, or the competition’s lack of vision or ability to execute. Everyone was here laughing at Apple every step of the way when they released the iPod, then iTunes, then the iPhone, iPad, Apple watch, AirPods, services, and even now, people are mocking Apple silicon and Vision Pro.

Meanwhile, Apple spends billions of dollars every year building up their ecosystem bit by bit, they are merely reaping the fruits of their labour, and people can’t stand Apple succeeding, I suppose.

The DMA is not going to address the root cause of the problem, which is that tech companies in the EU simply can’t compete, through no fault of Apple’s.

It’s not about fault. It wasn’t Microsoft's "fault" that Windows was so widely used, even though there were several alternatives, but that didn't make them immune to antitrust or competition laws. In this case, these types of laws/regulations are meant to reduce or eliminate barriers to entry, such as allowing alternative app stores on iOS, in hopes of creating or increasing competition there.
 
There are at LEAST 3 operating systems for tablets:

1. iPad OS
2. Android
3. Windows (Surface)
4. Linux

Also there are Linux os-es for phones.
And sure Nokia's Symbian and Blackberry's OS have been discontinued. But there is still choice.

While there are a few tablet operating systems, the market is dominated by two (iPadOS and Android) with Apple having the largest share globally. That's where a "duopoly" designation can come in. Even a "monopoly" product (like Windows) can have several alternatives.
 
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That's the only thing you can vote for. And they (the EU parliament) do NOT create the legislation. They ONLY vote.


You should know who vote for the parties in the European Comission. It's the government of your own (corrupt) country. And THEY are the ones making the legislation.


Hahahahahaha funny. See ^


It's not, it's literally how the EU was designed. You only have something that looks like a democracy from the outside. But it's not, it never was and never will be. And that is by design.
I see you understand the structures of the EU about as well as you do monopolies. Chapeau.
 
You should know who vote for the parties in the European Comission. It's the government of your own (corrupt) country. And THEY are the ones making the legislation.
You should study that Wikipedia article about the EU again, because judging from the above, you don't seem to understand how legislation in the EU works.
 
You should study that Wikipedia article about the EU again, because judging from the above, you don't seem to understand how legislation in the EU works.

No that’s exactly how it works.

European Commission: drafts legislation. Members of the EC decided by NGOs.

European Parliament: votes for legislation from the EC.

European Commission again places fines for breach of their legislation.

European Court of Justice. For lawsuits because of these fines. Members chosen by member states.

In bold, the only actual part of the EU that can be seen as democratic. And even then a single person's vote or even a single country's vote is extremely uninportant. Which means you would need at least 3 countries to join you before you could have a feesible change in the legislation. And even than that chance is very slim.
 
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The European Commission plans to fine Apple for not adequately complying with Digital Markets Act (DMA) requirements for the App Store, reports Bloomberg. Regulators apparently believe that Apple did not implement changes that allowed developers to steer users to cheaper prices outside of the App Store. <SNIP>
Does the European Commission do anything besides fine Apple?
 
European Commission: drafts legislation. Members of the EC decided by NGOs.

European Parliament: votes for legislation from the EC.

European Commission again places fines for breach of their legislation.

European Court of Justice. For lawsuits because of these fines. Members chosen by member states.
You missed one crucial step. It's the governments of all EU country that decide which legislative initiatives of the EU go forward. The Commission and even the EU Parliament can't create new law EU without at least a majority of countries (the exact voting procedure is a bit more complicated) agreeing to it.

the vast majority of laws are subject to the ordinary legislative procedure, which works on the principle that consent from both the Council and Parliament are required before a law may be adopted. Source
 
You missed one crucial step. It's the governments of all EU country that decide which legislative initiatives of the EU go forward. The Commission and even the EU Parliament can't create new law EU without at least a majority of countries (the exact voting procedure is a bit more complicated) agreeing to it.

Yes. Majority rules. Which means France and Germany decide for everyone. Exactly my main issue. There is no Veto in the EU, so that's a big issue.

In the end, there are a lot of levels of decision making. With only a small one with direct input from the citizens. (EP) All other decisions are either inderect (local goverment, majority rules) or none at all.

If you'd ask me there should be a public referendum for each major legislation. (the Switserland model) And the people should decide. Not the lobby from NGOs.
 
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Yes. Majority rules. Which means France and Germany decide for everyone. Exactly my main issue.
Here is the press release of the Council regarding the DMA:

On 25 November 2021, less than a year after the start of negotiations in the Council, member states unanimously agreed on the Council’s position on the DMA. [Source]
The decision was made unanimously, not by "France and Germany".
 
It's not, it's literally how the EU was designed. You only have something that looks like a democracy from the outside. But it's not, it never was and never will be. And that is by design.
A few problems with all of that.
First off, democracies agree to be into the EU. They want that. That obviously gives away some of their own power to share choices that are supposed to benefit the whole community, but they can still leave. It's important to also remember that all EU power is soft power.
Then, you talk as if the commission was there by divine right. It's chosen by democratically elected members of governments finding a deal and it must still be approved by the parliament. Less direct democracy, still democracy. Now, if you don't like this definition of democracy... you don't like democracy, you want something else that has basically never happened in history. ALL democracies have different organs that aren't elected directly by the people but by people who are elected and so on. And all democracies have systems that are meant to balance mere proportionality and, in this case, single states' power. What would you suggest otherwise, proportionality on all choices? Would that make it closer to citizens? Would that make it less unbalanced towards some countries?
When there's to many people involved, it's necessary to find a finer compromise and the plurality of views has brought to this system. Again, single nations may be closer to some simpler interests of the citizens (again, there's so much that I enjoy for the direct involvement of the EU) but there's a lot that single states can't do, such as contrasting global superpowers and corporations who want a slice of Europe.
Again, you are vastly exaggerating how far this is from what we commonly call democracy in many ways.

About corruption, I'm glad my pretty corrupt country is balanced in many ways by countries that are either less corrupt or more but with different interests. That still balances corruption often and has defended citizens on fundamental issues many times.

Now, all that makes sense about your point of view, if that's what you meant, is how the economy stays in the hand of the richest countries. Well, again, that's a big part of the EU. It mostly determines how countries who put in more money have more power on where the money goes. Now, is that less democratic than if they just made private investments abroad? Would they still have to make deals with democratically elected governments? Isn't having shared organs still more democratic than that?

Comparison with nation-state democracies may make some aspects look less democratic because they're less direct. For sure. Comparison with some pure ideals of democracy don't help. Comparisons with lacking international cooperation make this look like a great democratic experiment.

...but forget all of this. What the EU does against Apple still undeniably protects me as a citizen in ways that I clearly explained and you haven't mentioned. Again, let's pretend you're right and the EU is an undemocratic mess, it's still very much helping me now against a foreign rich power who wants my money for no reason but its own power to block competitors before they can prove how good they are.
 
And you know what the biggest issue raised when the crowdstrike issue hit was people saying why was’t Microsoft involved with the testing and distribution of the updates.

almost arguing that such things should now be done that way.
And Microsoft came out and said the reason Crowsdstrike has the level of access they do on Windows is because of decisions on them from the EU.
 
No that’s exactly how it works.

European Commission: drafts legislation. Members of the EC decided by NGOs.

European Parliament: votes for legislation from the EC.

European Commission again places fines for breach of their legislation.

European Court of Justice. For lawsuits because of these fines. Members chosen by member states.

In bold, the only actual part of the EU that can be seen as democratic. And even then a single person's vote or even a single country's vote is extremely uninportant. Which means you would need at least 3 countries to join you before you could have a feesible change in the legislation. And even than that chance is very slim.
Look it’s really simple

There are 27 countries and 27 commissioners, each of a different nationality, decided by that country’s leader.
Each commissioner has a different role, those countries with bigger contributions get the better roles …. Finance etc.

The general public have no more say over the appointment than they do the chancellor, the minister of defence, the secretary to the homeland. They all get decided by the country’s leader.

No parliament I know of creates legislation, that’s the role of government, parliament only ever gets to scrutinise and vote.

If I understand your voting system you vote for political parties, the UK votes for people in parties, slightly different.
From that choice a whole government is form of people you never asked for.

That is democracy I’m afraid

This it’s your chap. He does climate change

 
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If that were the case, they might as well have also fined Apple for being "anti-competitive" for not offering Safari on Windows, Android, etc. Fined Apple for being "anti-competitive" for not offering iOS on Samsung, Motorola, Google, etc. phones to compete with Android. Fined Apple for being "anti-competitive" for not offering macOS on Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. computers to compete with Windows. Fined Apple for being "anti-competitive" for not offering a search engine to compete with Google, Bing, etc. And so on. It simply doesn't work that way.
They did offer safari on windows. It was not popular so it was discontinued. Webkit is open source, you should know that. Google forked it to make the engine that runs chrome. Microsoft edge uses that same engine. All descendants from safari's webkit which itself came from khtml.

MacOS was actually licensed to third parties in the late 90s. Motorola made a computer called Star Max that was a mac clone. It got discontinued by steve jobs.

The current macOS underlying software is Darwin and that is also open source. It’s not the complete macOS, but nothing is stopping a third party from taking that code and making their own version like linux distros do.
 
That means absolutely nothing to me, it just feels like rhetoric.
I enjoy liberties, laws and projects provided by the EU on a daily basis. I vote to choose who represents me in the EU parliament. Its policies are usually way closer to my interests than my own utterly corrupt country. I love having that superior control over my politicians when they violate obvious principles. You can explain something a thousand times, it doesn't matter to me if I know for sure it's an exaggeration (not to call it an uninformed lie).
I'm also very aware the EU has primarily economic interests and I don't agree with many of their methods. But I don't see how that's different from any other national state.
The EU represents countries and their economic interests, and does the work for common policies.

It does not represent citizens or their liberties.

That is why the DMA isn't written around companies having a monopoly; it regulates the existence and creation of healthy digital markets.

Anyway, in this specific case, my country could do almost nothing alone to protect me from being forced into a monopoly.
Like, forced to work for a monopolist?
The EU can. I've been wanting a more free development path on Apple devices for a long time, as a user (jailbroken my first iPod Mini a couple decades ago) and as a developer for the last decade (I pay Apple their share and I'm also forced to buy horribly overpriced, unupgradable and unrepairable Macs every few years).
A free development path is not anything the EU will likely do however, outside regulating the web as a common open marketplace.
This is one of the EU laws that are closer to me. Even if you were right and the EU was designed for some evil plan, this is obviously not the case where it's bad for citizens.
It was developed for the economic benefit of its members, who are nations.
 
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The EU represents countries and their economic interests, and does the work for common policies.

It does not represent citizens or their liberties.
What do you mean it does not work for common policies? What are you talking about? That's all it does.
The parliament represents citizens and there are laws and organs that protect their liberties. Please, ask chatGPT how they work.
That is why the DMA isn't written around companies having a monopoly; it regulates the existence and creation of healthy digital markets.
yes, that part is about the market, still very much affects me both as a citizen and part of the market. The market doesn't exist in a void, its impact on citizens is part of the equation.
Like, forced to work for a monopolist?
What?
A free development path is not anything the EU will likely do however, outside regulating the web as a common open marketplace.
Once you don't have to publish to the AppStore, other ways of developing will probably start to make sense. It's a side-effect (shouldn't be, it's still part of Apple's abuse of its position) but still.
It was developed for the economic benefit of its members, who are nations.
What are Nations? Something that goes to vote? Or do people who represent those nations vote? And aren't those people democratically elected? I consider that just a play on words. It's not like there's a Nation entity that's completely separated from its citizens and benefits from the EU. Representation isn't perfect in this case but there's no reason to think it's less perfect than in other democratic contexts.
 
This grows tiresome: it seems those harbouring your incredulity don't get that when silly laws exist, people are free to point out that they're silly – practically no one is claiming laws aren't laws, and Apple has a history of conforming to laws all over the world, including those of its home country. Retain some integrity, then, and rebut the criticism itself.
What is cumbersome is that you guys never complain about your own massive problems, most countries in the EU are better to live in(higher ranked) than in the US, most of them are free, much more than you, I won’t go into details here, the list is long, but for starters, I hope you survive your new German leader🤔

Start complaining about your own crap.
 
The laws are poorly written, hard to interpret, outside of typical anti-trust regulations, and were entirely crafted to target a few companies, exempting any EU company. In short, sure, you're absolutely right. Right by power, not morally. And that's the difference.

But hey, EU, you do you. You're losing badly in the digital age, and regulation will not save you.
Good thing I won’t be living there soon then.

You should move too🤔.
Soon you have no country left.
 
That means absolutely nothing to me, it just feels like rhetoric.
I enjoy liberties, laws and projects provided by the EU on a daily basis. I vote to choose who represents me in the EU parliament. Its policies are usually way closer to my interests than my own utterly corrupt country. I love having that superior control over my politicians when they violate obvious principles. You can explain something a thousand times, it doesn't matter to me if I know for sure it's an exaggeration (not to call it an uninformed lie).
I'm also very aware the EU has primarily economic interests and I don't agree with many of their methods. But I don't see how that's different from any other national state.

Anyway, in this specific case, my country could do almost nothing alone to protect me from being forced into a monopoly. The EU can. I've been wanting a more free development path on Apple devices for a long time, as a user (jailbroken my first iPod Mini a couple decades ago) and as a developer for the last decade (I pay Apple their share and I'm also forced to buy horribly overpriced, unupgradable and unrepairable Macs every few years).
This is one of the EU laws that are closer to me. Even if you were right and the EU was designed for some evil plan, this is obviously not the case where it's bad for citizens.
Really so Apple FORCED you to buy their product did they. Did they use a knife, gun, threaten family members in this coercion that they applied to make you buy there products and use there services.

how is it that you are FORCED to buy there products and services,

or perhaps you have somewhat exaggerated, dare i say flat out lied when said Apple has FORCED or MADE you do something.

how is it that Apple force you to develop for their ecosystem as opposed to developing for the alternatives.

you made a CHOICE to develop for Apples Ecosystem. Once you made that choice then you need to buy what is required to do the development, ie a Mac. Surely part of your CHOICE to develop for Apple Ecosystem is looking at the cost of developing vs the reward, ie how much to buy an iPhone, iPad, Mac etc and making an informed decision as to wether to do so or not.

I use

Mac Studio
Apple TV
iPad
iPhone
Apple TV purchased movies, tv shows.

now the phone, and pad can be swapped out for android equivalent.
the Mac Studio can be replaced by Wintel Machine.
Apple TV anything with a Plex Client that can connect to TV. (Not exactly a shortage of choice there)
apple content , can be downloaded and have the DRM stripped and put into Plex.

In no way is Apple holding me hostage. I evaluated doing this before buying the Mac Studio however decided to stick with Apple as all works nicely for me.

I have a friend who won’t touch Apple with a barge pole precisely because is locked down etc. instead he buys the alternatives to Apple instead of buying Apple then complaing about Apple.
 
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