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dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,587
14,924
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
So, if I am reading these last dozen or so posts correctly, it appears that we have Google on one side wanting open source standard (and maybe some other companies) and Apple and Meta on the closed system side (and maybe a few other companies). Then the EU is wanting them all to play together - solution is for them to pick one (for all).
 

CarlJ

macrumors 604
Feb 23, 2004
6,971
12,135
San Diego, CA, USA
The adoption of RCS and the binning of closed-off messaging platforms is to the benefit of everyone.
The adoption of a standard for interchange of messages between systems would be to the benefit of many. The adoption of RCS would be to the benefit of the wireless carrier companies, not their end users.

And the adoption of a standard in the context of the government putting a gun to the heads of the smartphone companies and saying "you are legally required to switch to RCS and get rid of your current messaging system" is to the benefit of the wireless carriers (who would make more money and have more control, if I'm understanding correctly), and would do a lot of harm to existing messaging companies and smartphone companies. Sure, it wouldn't be so bad for Google, since they're already using RCS (anyone want a list of the dozens of messaging systems that Google has developed, gotten users invested in, and then abandoned, over the years?). Why choose RCS? Why write regulations designed to give Google a win? Quoting from the Wikipedia page for RCS:

RCS Business Messaging (RBM) is the B2C (A2P in telecoms terminology) version of RCS. This is supposed to be an answer to third-party messaging apps (or OTTs) absorbing mobile operators' messaging traffic and associated revenues. While RCS is designed to win back Person-to-Person (P2P) traffic, RBM is intended to retain and grow this A2P traffic.​

Yes, the top of the paragraph is the business variant - read the underlined part, talking about the user-to-user part. Yes, it gives the end users some niceties, but the overall goal of RCS is not to help the end users, it's to wrest control of messaging away from IP-based systems and put it back in the hands of the wireless carriers. The carriers aren't happy that everyone went to IP-based messaging systems and away from SMS, which was ridiculously profitable for them. And, frankly, I have very little sympathy for the wireless carriers in this - their role (notwithstanding what it was 20-30 years ago) is to be a "dumb pipe", transferring IP-based data traffic (and voice... which also transfers as data these days), and they should be competing on performance (speeds, latency, etc.), service, support, and price. Not on trying to bring back the good old days of carriers reigning supreme, dictating equipment, software, and charging by "how important that data is to you" rather than by simply how much data is being sent through their network - keep in mind that 1 MB of data is very roughly equivalent to 7500 text messages - at 10 cents a piece, the carriers were effectively making $750 for 1 MB of data transfer when doing SMS (yes, it wasn't quite that simple). When everybody went to IP/data-based messaging apps, suddenly they were getting perhaps a few cents for that 1 MB of data, rather than $750. I'm sure they didn't like that turn of events. Would you argue that is was a tragic or unreasonable turn of events?

I'm all in favor of encouraging the smartphone companies and messaging companies to work together to come up with interoperability mechanisms - and I really do mean "encourage" and not "have governments pass/adopt regulations requiring cooperation and/or some particular standard" (like RCS). Petition the companies, show them that huge, vast numbers of their customers want this. If you want to involve the government, have them offer the company some very modest benefit if they get together devise and implement a standard (and, again, "do X or we'll fine you" is not a carrot, it's the threat of a stick).

I was around and paying attention when a lot of the standards that now make the internet work, took hold and took off (I've worked with people who wrote some of the standards). Those standards didn't happen because a government put a gun to each company's head and said, "we've chosen a standard and you have to adopt it", these standards got adopted and put into wide use because a bunch of companies, universities, and other interested parties saw that it was to their mutual benefit to agree to implement them.

Setting up legal requirements to adopt standards (before you've gotten universal consensus that the standard in question is the right one), is not the same thing. Even if you really want a standard adopted, like, yesterday.

You keep writing things that have a decided tone of "this sounds like a good idea and therefore should be mandated by law (and the alternatives should be made illegal)" (particularly given the context of a thread where the subject is the EU government passing laws to require standards). Please correct me if I'm getting that wrong.
 
Last edited:

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,378
2,160
Scandinavia
When I send a e2ee message to Bob, I use Bob's public key to encrypt the message. Bob uses a combination of his password and his private key to decrypt the message.
Bob utses only hos private key to decrypt your message as only the combination of his public and private key can he read his own message.
If interoperability is required, than I have no reason to trust that the public key used to "encrypt" my message to Bob is actually valid because Bob could be using any number of service providers. There is also a trust issue with the handoff of my public key between my service provider and Bob's. I also have to trust that Bob's service provider is actually delivering my message to Bob and not Fred! Another problem is it exposes the metadata about my conversation (timestamps, participants, etc.) to an untrusted third-party.
Absolutely you have every reason to believe Bobs public key is legitimate, because if it’s not legitimate then bob won’t be able to decrypt your messages.

If you encrypted your message with bobs key and it’s gets sent of to Fred, he won’t be able to decrypt it as he has the wrong private key pair. And it will be literal gibberish

Your public key is given to people to encrypt their text, but only you have the right private key to decrypt it again
And, again, that's a separate issue than the spam issue which is also a major concern.
Well that we can agree on
The adoption of a standard for interchange of messages between systems would be to the benefit of many. The adoption of RCS would be to the benefit of the wireless carrier companies, not their end users.

And the adoption of a standard in the context of the government putting a gun to the heads of the smartphone companies and saying "you are legally required to switch to RCS and get rid of your current messaging system" is to the benefit of the wireless carriers (who would make more money and have more control, if I'm understanding correctly), and would do a lot of harm to existing messaging companies and smartphone companies. Sure, it wouldn't be so bad for Google, since they're already using RCS (anyone want a list of the dozens of messaging systems that Google has developed, gotten users invested in, and then abandoned, over the years?). Why choose RCS? Why write regulations designed to give Google a win? Quoting from the Wikipedia page for RCS:

RCS Business Messaging (RBM) is the B2C (A2P in telecoms terminology) version of RCS. This is supposed to be an answer to third-party messaging apps (or OTTs) absorbing mobile operators' messaging traffic and associated revenues. While RCS is designed to win back Person-to-Person (P2P) traffic, RBM is intended to retain and grow this A2P traffic.​

Yes, the top of the paragraph is the business variant - read the underlined part, talking about the user-to-user part. Yes, it gives the end users some niceties, but the overall goal of RCS is not to help the end users, it's to wrest control of messaging away from IP-based systems and put it back in the hands of the wireless carriers. The carriers aren't happy that everyone went to IP-based messaging systems and away from SMS, which was ridiculously profitable for them. And, frankly, I have very little sympathy for the wireless carriers in this - their role (notwithstanding what it was 20-30 years ago) is to be a "dumb pipe", transferring IP-based data traffic (and voice... which also transfers as data these days), and they should be competing on performance (speeds, latency, etc.), service, support, and price. Not on trying to bring back the good old days of carriers reigning supreme, dictating equipment, software, and charging by "how important that data is to you" rather than by simply how much data is being sent through their network - keep in mind that 1 MB of data is very roughly equivalent to 7500 text messages - at 10 cents a piece, the carriers were effectively making $750 for 1 MB of data transfer when doing SMS (yes, it wasn't quite that simple). When everybody went to IP/data-based messaging apps, suddenly they were getting perhaps a few cents for that 1 MB of data, rather than $750. I'm sure they didn't like that turn of events. Would you argue that is was a tragic or unreasonable turn of events?

I'm all in favor of encouraging the smartphone companies and messaging companies to work together to come up with interoperability mechanisms - and I really do mean "encourage" and not "have governments pass/adopt regulations requiring cooperation and/or some particular standard" (like RCS). Petition the companies, show them that huge, vast numbers of their customers want this. If you want to involve the government, have them offer the company some very modest benefit if they get together devise and implement a standard (and, again, "do X or we'll fine you" is not a carrot, it's the threat of a stick).

I was around and paying attention when a lot of the standards that now make the internet work, took hold and took off (I've worked with people who wrote some of the standards). Those standards didn't happen because a government put a gun to each company's head and said, "we've chosen a standard and you have to adopt it", these standards got adopted and put into wide use because a bunch of companies, universities, and other interested parties saw that it was to their mutual benefit to agree to implement them.

Setting up legal requirements to adopt standards (before you've gotten universal consensus that the standard in question is the right one), is not the same thing. Even if you really want a standard adopted, like, yesterday.

You keep writing things that have a decided tone of "this sounds like a good idea and therefore should be mandated by law (and the alternatives should be made illegal)" (particularly given the context of a thread where the subject is the EU government passing laws to require standards). Please correct me if I'm getting that wrong.
I guess you could say EU is putting a gun to the industry heads and telling them to get along or face the consequences not caring how it ends
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,378
2,160
Scandinavia
And that is how the EU will wind up by being technological desert, imo.
Perhaps, at least they don’t micromanage the thing or telling them what to use.

Can you at least entertain with a few assumptions( security and privacy is guaranteed) that the minimum interoperability are working according to you ideas.

That if you could use iMessage and send an iMessage to a Facebook user( a friend, colleague etc) using messenger with a red bubble knowing that apple protects your privacy like sign in with Apple.

You don’t need to use messenger and give away your privacy, you can use iMessage and know it exist and all your devices.

You don’t need to use WhatsApp to send an iMessage to them and still keep your privacy. You don’t need to use Telegram and fear they will give your information to the government etc etc
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,762
10,890
Bob utses only hos private key to decrypt your message as only the combination of his public and private key can he read his own message.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Bob needs his private key to decrypt my message. Bob's public key is used to encrypt my message.

Absolutely you have every reason to believe Bobs public key is legitimate, because if it’s not legitimate then bob won’t be able to decrypt your messages.

If you encrypted your message with bobs key and it’s gets sent of to Fred, he won’t be able to decrypt it as he has the wrong private key pair. And it will be literal gibberish

Your public key is given to people to encrypt their text, but only you have the right private key to decrypt it again
Only if you trust Bob's service provider. A nefarious service provider could send you Fred's public key when you are trying to communicate with Bob. Fred could decrypt the message and then re-encrypt with Bob's public key and forward it to Bob. You would be none the wiser. In this case Fred could be a government or a criminal. It's called a man in the middle attack.

There is also the metadata issue that I mentioned.
 

CarlJ

macrumors 604
Feb 23, 2004
6,971
12,135
San Diego, CA, USA
Only if you trust Bob's service provider. A nefarious service provider could send you Fred's public key when you are trying to communicate with Bob. Fred could decrypt the message and then re-encrypt with Bob's public key and forward it to Bob. You would be none the wiser. In this case Fred could be a government or a criminal. It's called a man in the middle attack.
Yep, good cryptographers will tell you, cryptography isn't just about the algorithms, it's about the implementation of the infrastructure.

There was a time, with PGP (and GPG) and the "web of trust", where keys were validated by signing by actual real people who knew each other (Bob knows Ted, Ted knows Carol, Carol knows Alice... and if they've all signed the keys of the two other people they know, Bob can send a message to Alice, whom he's never met, knowing that it's really her, because of the intervening connections).

These days, with public key infrastructure, you're depending on the absolute trustability of everyone working at/for a handful of certificate authorities. If one of the certificate authorities turns out to have lax standards or is doing a sloppy job of checking credentials, or, worse, if one of the certificate authorities (or someone working for them) starts dealing with black hats, or three-letter-agencies or nefarious nation states, then the system can be compromised - oh, the encryption itself will be very secure, but the keys, and thus the data, will end up in the wrong hands.
 

ponzicoinbro

Suspended
Aug 5, 2021
1,081
2,085
A similar stupid lawsuit is targeting Sony and PlayStation now.

The dumbasses are complaining that Sony has a monopoly on…

…the Playstation.

LMAO.

What?

You want to side load an Xbox game on a PlayStation and vice versa?

Good luck with that.

You’ll kill the AAA gaming business because Microsoft and Sony won’t be able to pay devs for exclusives.
 
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Macropanda

macrumors regular
Oct 21, 2014
157
940
A similar stupid lawsuit is targeting Sony and PlayStation now.

The dumbasses are complaining that Sony has a monopoly on…

…the Playstation.

LMAO.

What?

You want to side load an Xbox game on a PlayStation and vice versa?

Good luck with that.

You’ll kill the AAA gaming business because Microsoft and Sony won’t be able to pay devs for exclusives.
I don’t think Apple should be forced to allow side loading but if they are, I see the logic in PlayStation being forced into it too.
If Apple can’t decide what they want to allow to run on their OS, why should Xbox, PS and Nintendo be allowed.
 
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ponzicoinbro

Suspended
Aug 5, 2021
1,081
2,085
I don’t think Apple should be forced to allow side loading but if they are, I see the logic in PlayStation being forced into it too.
If Apple can’t decide what they want to allow to run on their OS, why should Xbox, PS and Nintendo be allowed.

If it is your platform, your operating system, then it is your responsibility to make sure the consumers and users have a secure and stable platform. It’s literally what the law says.

Sideloading from random places without any quality checks and controls reduces the quality, security and stability of the system. Look at Raspberry Pi based gaming systems. Very open. Nice. but buggy as hell and only nerds want to fix those bugs.

It is already immensely difficult enough to control bugs inside an eco-system. Opening an eco-system makes it impossible to control every issue that can go wrong. Only the most idiotic and bribed lawmaker or lawyer can push for such a thing.

As for the commissions…

Yongyea who is a critic of greed in tech addresses the flaws in these stupid legal cases.

He proves the arguments are flawed. He also proves that if Sony, Microsoft, Google or Apple reduced their 30% cut there will be no savings for consumers. The execs at big gaming firms will just pocket the money themselves.

The proof he used is simple to see. On stores where they pay less commission the retail price isn’t lower, it’s the same.

 
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jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,488
4,270
Yongyea who is a critic of greed in tech addresses the flaws in these stupid legal cases.

He proves the arguments are flawed. He also proves that if Sony, Microsoft, Google or Apple reduced their 30% cut there will be no savings for consumers. The execs at big gaming firms will just pocket the money themselves.

The proof he used is simple to see. On stores where they pay less commission the retail price isn’t lower, it’s the same.

Not only that, but it's likely to hurt small developers as MS/Sony/Apple change the fee structure to charge for things now included in the developer fee. They may windup paying more upfront before they make a sale, and if sales don't do well may windup with a negative return.
 

CarlJ

macrumors 604
Feb 23, 2004
6,971
12,135
San Diego, CA, USA
Not only that, but it's likely to hurt small developers as MS/Sony/Apple change the fee structure to charge for things now included in the developer fee. They may windup paying more upfront before they make a sale, and if sales don't do well may windup with a negative return.
It will absolutely hurt small developers. It's not a matter of "charge for things now included in the developer fee" - that fee is just a cover charge, it doesn't "include" all the things people think it does, those costs/services are recouped from the 30% commission. If the commission goes away, Apple will make it up other ways. Just one idea of the top of my head, charging for the developer tools that are required to build the software, and charging for the certificates required to sign the programs so that they'll run on iOS. And those costs could be quite large for individuals, or, say, for large companies, site-licensed based on the total number of developers at the company.

Big developer houses see "free money for us!" (to not pass on to our customers). Some end users see, "everything will be so much cheaper!". They're both delusional.
 
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