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TrumanApple said:
I dont see this machine haveing a significant impact on marketshare... yes 499 is cheap, but, compared to cheap PCs, its still expensive... Dont get me wrong, its a great machine... but i believe that airport and a keybored and mouse sohuld be included in that price... because after adding those on to the price you are up to 650 dollars for a computer that doesnt come with a monitor and has basicly 0 expandability and only a 1 year warrentee...

Basicly i think that this is a great computer, but it is nowhere near the machine that people seem to be hyping it as... with that being said... watch it fly off the shelves and poeple just eat it up so that i will have to eat my words... (like some poeple had to with the ipod mini)

PS: a cheap mac is a great idea... but did it really need to be that small? People seem to be fine with buying big bulky computers... and if they want smaller sleeker machines then they are probibly willing to spend the money it would take to get an imac...

You cannot really compare it with the cheapest PCs out there. This is not a huge a*s case with all the cheapest PC parts you can find, that you have to build yourself and add a pirated Windoze XP, because you're to cheap to pay for it - that comparisment is just, plain wrong.

Try comparing it to the cheapest baseline BAREBONES PCs with the same functions, not forgetting a dedicated GPU. Just remember to add OS and additional software. Then add Airport (WiFi) and Bluetooth to both setups and check prices again, add wireless keybord and mouse, add superdrive, continue until bored...

Just remember: The Mac mini is fully functionally without any upgrades. People have been usin far less power too do much more than the mini is expected to do for the targeted buyers...

As to security: *nix setups are generally safer than Windows, you'll have to give away your root password for any virus/worm/script/trojan/whatever to do any real damage, and even then the differens in all systems makes it very hard for virus programmers to target a large portion of the systems. On Windows most systems are verie similar with a C:/Windows/whatever-you-want-to-mess-up for all occasions... Of course someone can find a major hole in the FreeBSD core tomorrow, but chances are it won't effect Linux or other flavours and vice versa... Most other components in the *nix world are Open Source and are tested daily by numerous developers around the world. Not just a handful based in Seattle or wherever Bill Gates has send them...
 
raeble said:
Yeah and if this takes off like it's supposed to those hackers will start looking to make virus' that can affect osx. The only reason they don't bother is because hardly anybody uses it, but if you get between ten and twenty percent of people using it then it will start to look very attractive to them. 🙄

You obviously don't understand hackers and virus writers. Being that people claim that OS X is well protected, it would create more notoriety to write one for a Mac. (Plus the challenge) Everyone knows that PeeCees can be infected with little effort. Imagine the uproar on Slashdot or some other tech site if a major OS X virus were to come into play. Most people don't run AV on their Mac, so it'd be easy pickings.
 
Nothing is wrong IT'S A Mac FOR 499USD! If you need more power get a PowerMac Dual 2.5 with 8 GBs of Ram and two 30" cinema displays. 😀

Just a thought.
 
OK, after reading all of this here's my two cents and a quick glimpse into the mind of the consumer.

Price: Face it, the price is good, and anyone claiming that a cheap PC is still cheaper should consider looking a little bit deeper into things. Remember that when Joe Consumer walks in to his local Circuit City to talk to the kids who couldn't tell a TV from a toaster, he will likely be shelling out $700 or $800 for a "low-end" PC and have to consider the hassles of three or four mail-in rebates. To most people this process is annoying, convuluted and fraught with frustration and simply not having to deal with it is a big plus. And as an aside it should be noted that the general "bargain" PC is a terrible piece of equiptment that made from sub-par components with no backing, or is marked up and under powered (Dell), at least with Apple you know you'll get a computer that does what it's supposed to and a retail network that can support it, this kind of accountability matters when considering some mystery brand PC and the Mac Mini

Capabilities: It won't work wonders but then again it doesn't have to. If you can make cool slideshows in iMovie, update little Susie's iPod, and still accomplish normal internet/school/work tasks then it's more than suited for 90% of the computer users out there. If you want something more capable you should be prepared to pay for it.

Add-ons: I think the BYODKM idea for this computer was perfect. Let's face it, the normal user does not need little glowing apples in every corner of there room, and the premium price of Apple equiptment is never more obvious than when looking at their periphrials. A simple LCD 15"-17" can be had for around $200 and a CRT monitor for less than $100, and frankly most people probably already have one. A decent optical mouse and keyboard can be had for around $30 or less so long as the buyer does not need everything to be Apple, and face it, most people don't. so the supposedly "hidden" costs of this computer aren't hidden, it gives poepl more options and who wouldn't like that.

iLife: iLife, this one should be obvious. Digital photography, cameras, music etc. is becoming a staple task for the home computer and iLife is hands down the best consolidated apporach to this out there. Coming free with every Mac should be a huge incentive to new users, like all things OSX it's intuitive, easy to use and forgiving for the average user. Similar programs come bundled with almost everything PC and I can tell you from personal experience that free media programs on PC are possibly the worst pieces of software ever to fall into the public's hands. Arcsoft and the likes turn slideshows into heart surgery for the average user and a capable program suite with features comparable to iMovie and iDVD alone would easily cost $150-$200. iLife is key to this effort becuase it offers what people want and how they want it.

OSX and Convenience: OSX is easier to use and understand than Windows hands down. People will be attracted by the security and the convenience of an operating system they can understand, and don't have to hassle with over zealous security procedures and constant bug-fixes downloaded by the dozens. it's hard to put into words but Apple is just easier to use for the average user and they know it, now that it's been put at a reasonable price point the switchers should come in droves I would expect.

Sorry I wrote a book about this but I think it helps to point out what the average consumer will be looking for. It represents a change to a more positive computer buying experience and for some people thats all they need. My dad is most likely going to give up Windows for this computer after having dealt with it since 3.1, in many ways this represents the average consumer and the average consumers needs and that can't be discounted.
 
TrumanApple said:
but, why have all this great software on a computer that can barely run it... I know the min. req. for these programs is much lower than 256, but the apps will still run slow and sluggish

I don't think you'll see nearly as many complaints as you think. I know a lot of people who are very happy with Panther on 256, and think of it as snappy.

The demographic of this forum tends spend a lot more time on computers than most people, tends to run a lot more programs at one time, tends to run a lot more memory intensive programs and tends to be a lot more demanding of their hardware.

This will do fine for surfing http://cnn.com with safari while listening to iTunes.

[Later you can hear my rant about the people who seem to think that anything less than a 2.5GHz G5 is a waste of money, when 99% of the world doesn't even maintain 30% processor utilization out of an 800MHz G4]

We have long ago hit the point where raw specs are unecessary except in the most specialized of applications. It's all about style and how it runs the software people are using.
 
MORE RAM

deuceswilde said:
OK, after reading all of this here's my two cents and a quick glimpse into the mind of the consumer.

Price: Face it, the price is good, and anyone claiming that a cheap PC is still cheaper should consider looking a little bit deeper into things. Remember that when Joe Consumer walks in to his local Circuit City to talk to the kids who couldn't tell a TV from a toaster, he will likely be shelling out $700 or $800 for a "low-end" PC and have to consider the hassles of three or four mail-in rebates. To most people this process is annoying, convuluted and fraught with frustration and simply not having to deal with it is a big plus. And as an aside it should be noted that the general "bargain" PC is a terrible piece of equiptment that made from sub-par components with no backing, or is marked up and under powered (Dell), at least with Apple you know you'll get a computer that does what it's supposed to and a retail network that can support it, this kind of accountability matters when considering some mystery brand PC and the Mac Mini

Capabilities: It won't work wonders but then again it doesn't have to. If you can make cool slideshows in iMovie, update little Susie's iPod, and still accomplish normal internet/school/work tasks then it's more than suited for 90% of the computer users out there. If you want something more capable you should be prepared to pay for it.

Add-ons: I think the BYODKM idea for this computer was perfect. Let's face it, the normal user does not need little glowing apples in every corner of there room, and the premium price of Apple equiptment is never more obvious than when looking at their periphrials. A simple LCD 15"-17" can be had for around $200 and a CRT monitor for less than $100, and frankly most people probably already have one. A decent optical mouse and keyboard can be had for around $30 or less so long as the buyer does not need everything to be Apple, and face it, most people don't. so the supposedly "hidden" costs of this computer aren't hidden, it gives poepl more options and who wouldn't like that.

iLife: iLife, this one should be obvious. Digital photography, cameras, music etc. is becoming a staple task for the home computer and iLife is hands down the best consolidated apporach to this out there. Coming free with every Mac should be a huge incentive to new users, like all things OSX it's intuitive, easy to use and forgiving for the average user. Similar programs come bundled with almost everything PC and I can tell you from personal experience that free media programs on PC are possibly the worst pieces of software ever to fall into the public's hands. Arcsoft and the likes turn slideshows into heart surgery for the average user and a capable program suite with features comparable to iMovie and iDVD alone would easily cost $150-$200. iLife is key to this effort becuase it offers what people want and how they want it.

OSX and Convenience: OSX is easier to use and understand than Windows hands down. People will be attracted by the security and the convenience of an operating system they can understand, and don't have to hassle with over zealous security procedures and constant bug-fixes downloaded by the dozens. it's hard to put into words but Apple is just easier to use for the average user and they know it, now that it's been put at a reasonable price point the switchers should come in droves I would expect.

Sorry I wrote a book about this but I think it helps to point out what the average consumer will be looking for. It represents a change to a more positive computer buying experience and for some people thats all they need. My dad is most likely going to give up Windows for this computer after having dealt with it since 3.1, in many ways this represents the average consumer and the average consumers needs and that can't be discounted.


No dont get me wrong... this computer is a great deal... with 512MB of ram... The MINIMUM requirement for iLife 05' is 256MB... the fact that this computer is loaded with software that the computer barely meets the min. requirements for is sad... i think if anything they should have either made 2 ram slots... or offered 512MB standard... 256 is going to give people a bad taste of OS X, iLife and every other piece of software that made the purchase so attractive...

PS: i would never recommend anyone buying a new computer in the year 2005 with only 256 MB of ram... in fact i would call 512 the min. and suggest at least 1 gig... i would also tell people to never upgrade ram through the computer company if possible... and with the mini it isnt possible... so 512mb is really the only option (self installing ram WILL void the warrentee in this maching... it is not considered a user installable part in the mini)
 
TrumanApple said:
No dont get me wrong... this computer is a great deal... with 512MB of ram... The MINIMUM requirement for iLife 05' is 256MB... the fact that this computer is loaded with software that the computer barely meets the min. requirements for is sad... i think if anything they should have either made 2 ram slots... or offered 512MB standard... 256 is going to give people a bad taste of OS X, iLife and every other piece of software that made the purchase so attractive...

PS: i would never recommend anyone buying a new computer in the year 2005 with only 256 MB of ram... in fact i would call 512 the min. and suggest at least 1 gig... i would also tell people to never upgrade ram through the computer company if possible... and with the mini it isnt possible... so 512mb is really the only option (self installing ram WILL void the warrentee in this maching... it is not considered a user installable part in the mini)

I completely agree, if nothing else the biggest design flaw of this computer was including only one RAM slot. At least with two you have expandability down the line without having to be wasteful and not having to worry about spending the money on a 1GB RAM card when you could save a ton by going with 2 512's. I think Apple should seriously reconsider this and maybe double the video card memory to 64 just to make it more competitive when running the media applications Apple is known for.
 
stcanard said:
4) --- THIS IS HORRIBLE -- the Application I copied over is still owned by me, not by the admin I authenticated as! I now have a huge hole where somebody that cracks my account can install a trojan. I know that every time I install an application I have to do a 'sudo chown -R root:admin MyApp', but this really needs to be automated somehow.

If Apple were to push people on install to create an admin and non-admin account, and get the ownership correct when authenticating, the problems caused by an SSH vulnerability would be greatly reduced to data loss only.

You shouldn't have root own your apps. You still have to give yourself execute permissions, and you'll still have a problem when someone cracks your box. You are confusing ownership with application privileges. They're different. Apps that are security conscious should run as a non-privileged user.
 
Sorta relating to this topic : keyboard shortcuts

I read this by someone in the Mac mini's thread at top of the forum regarding the keyboard. If people don't buy an Apple keyboard but rather use a keyboard they already have from a PC; well a Mac keyboard and a PC keyboard are slightly different. I'm not sure about the layout, but I do know that PC keyboards do not have the Apple/Command key. So will people be able to do simple keyboard shortcuts? Am I missing something? 😕
 
tech4all said:
I read this by someone in the Mac mini's thread at top of the forum regarding the keyboard. If people don't buy an Apple keyboard but rather use a keyboard they already have from a PC; well a Mac keyboard and a PC keyboard are slightly different. I'm not sure about the layout, but I do know that PC keyboards do not have the Apple/Command key. So will people be able to do simple keyboard shortcuts? Am I missing something? 😕

You are missing something. The windows key on a "windows" keyboard works as a command key real good. It's just in the wrong spot.
 
TrumanApple said:
I understand that apple is trying to appeal to a new market... but is it really smart to make a PC users first experience of os x on a machine with only 256 mb of ram... i cant imagine buying anything with less than 512... its about time that apple gave up on 256 mb of memory to start out with... and since there is only one slot for memeory... expanding that becomes less attractive... (and it voids the warrentee)...

lets put it this way... is there anyone in this forum who would buy a NEW computer now and plan on leaving it with only 256 mb? if so i question your sanity...

my girlfriend got her ibook shipped with only 256 mb and I put in a 512 mb after it shipped two weeks later. She had absolutely no problem with itunes, word, internet or iphoto during the time. When I put in the 512 stick, there was hardly no noticeable difference with those apps. She didn't even realize I had put it in until a few weeks later. 256 is fine for baasic stuff
 
panphage said:
You shouldn't have root own your apps. You still have to give yourself execute permissions, and you'll still have a problem when someone cracks your box. You are confusing ownership with application privileges. They're different. Apps that are security conscious should run as a non-privileged user.

And you are confusing ownership with execution privilige.

If I, as an unpriviliged user, run an application owned by root, it runs under my unprivliged UID, and thus is secure. Only if I set the suid bit would it would run as root. That is dangerous, and setuid/setgid programs have to be carefully audited.

It is, however, much safer to be owned by root, because then you need super-user priv to modify them, and since you never allow a remote root login that can't happen, right?
 
stcanard said:
And you are confusing ownership with execution privilige.

If I, as an unpriviliged user, run an application owned by root, it runs under my unprivliged UID, and thus is secure. Only if I set the suid bit would it would run as root. That is dangerous, and setuid/setgid programs have to be carefully audited.

It is, however, much safer to be owned by root, because then you need super-user priv to modify them, and since you never allow a remote root login that can't happen, right?

Maybe I've drunk too many Cokes tonite. 😉
 
deuceswilde said:
OSX and Convenience: OSX is easier to use and understand than Windows hands down. People will be attracted by the security and the convenience of an operating system they can understand, and don't have to hassle with over zealous security procedures and constant bug-fixes downloaded by the dozens. it's hard to put into words but Apple is just easier to use for the average user and they know it, now that it's been put at a reasonable price point the switchers should come in droves I would expect.

While I agree OSX is nicer to use, there are people who will always think XP is better. For example, one guy on a News.com Talkbalk posting thought OSX is "harder to get around". Here's an example why he thinks so:

http://news.com.com/5208-1042-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=4124&messageID=23440&start=-128

I don't agree with him but he is entitled to his opinion.
 
deuceswilde said:
I completely agree, if nothing else the biggest design flaw of this computer was including only one RAM slot.

Are we certain it only has one RAM slot? I haven't seen anything official in regards to this, although the memory upgrade options on the online Apple Store certainly seem to imply that to be the case. I'm not saying that it couldn't be true, just that I haven't seen any definite proof either way.
 
brap said:
Citing holes which have come and gone - been exploited and patched, really isn't relevant to the here and now... unless you're using them to reinforce the fact that X is fundamentally more secure through this trial and error.

I wasn't contradicting you and I generally agree OSX is more secure in the here and now. I simply believe that it is naive of the community to believe they will always be secure because there aren't problems now, because they aren't a prime target yet, or even to believe they are truly safe as is. (You may not, but the general Mac community does) It's the difference between relatively safe, and truly safe (the myth, unless you airgap yourself from the world).

I will note this though on your comment: saying patched exploits are irrelevant is the same as saying the sasser virus is irrelevent because not only should everyone be patched (this in fact was a daemon vulnerability which was patched), but everyone should be running antivirus software which is up to date. Yet, it is still rampant on the net.

There are people who don't patch their boxes, there are people who never run software update or always click "quit" when it comes up because they don't want to be bothered. By the time a vulnerability is found and advertised by bugtraq folks, an exploit may already be in the wild. Exploits are never irrelevent, and risks are always real. The (wonderful) design of OSX, and the *lack* of presence of OSX in prime target areas of the market make it a significatly lower risk. If Apple truly takes off, the situation will get worse, not better, that is just something we have to deal with. Some security agencies already believe Apple isn't aggressive enough to deal with this effectively because of the way they downplayed serious vulnerabilities during this past year. I'm not saying that Microsoft hasn't downplayed and ignored their fair share...

Personally, if Automatic Updates had been turned on by default in Windows 2000/XP years ago, and if IE had never existed, at least as is (most of the mail vulnerabilities are actually IE engine vulnerabilities), I think your average user's XP box would be about as likely to catch a virus/worm as an average OSX box (assuming equal effort from the crackers out there). When you really get into it, you might be surprised how much NT/2000/XP are like Unix at heart. Well, maybe twice as likely as OSX, but not 10x like it is now.

Of course you have P2P trojans, but those could be a problem on OSX in the future too (you don't have to be an admin to run a daemon on a high port, even add it as a cron job to run at boot, that's enough to do plenty of damage).

But I ramble, as usual. I'm going to go back to figuring out how to fill the extra hard drive I just installed in my G5. 🙂
 
dejo said:
While I agree OSX is nicer to use, there are people who will always think XP is better. For example, one guy on a News.com Talkbalk posting thought OSX is "harder to get around". Here's an example why he thinks so:

http://news.com.com/5208-1042-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=4124&messageID=23440&start=-128

I don't agree with him but he is entitled to his opinion.

I've talked to a number of people who feel the same way, it happens all the time where people just can't let go of what they're used to. I finally decided to make the switch from a lifetime of PC's to a powerbook about 6 months ago and I haven't looked back. I admit I was tenative about giving it up even to the point of buying Virtual PC, but the only use it really got was when I installed it. After a week I could do everything I could on a PC and then some, everything I couldn't figure out on my own was easily solved by going to the apple forums or various other resources. So I think if people want to learn then they can easily do it.
 
deuceswilde said:
So I think if people want to learn then they can easily do it.

I agree, and going throught OSX the first time I agreed with the comment linked, the dock is a little clunky if you try to use it from a different mindset (well, it's a little clunky anyways, that's why there's so many alternative third party docks). I eventually changed my usage patterns and now I don't have a problem whatsoever on either platform, though I really wish I had expose on Windows sometimes. 🙂

I went through the same thing with twm, fvwm, and gnome when I used *nix as a primary platform for 4 years. They are all quite efficiently usable once you adjust your patterns. Blackbox/fluxbox are an even harder adjustment.

But, the same problem very much applies to Mac users switching to Windows. Where I work used to be all Mac and was switched to a Windows platform (for highly logical reasons) several years ago. There are people who still can't figure out what a start menu is. 🙂 It's just human nature.

I'm glad I'm flexible, it means I get to play with more cool stuff 😀
 
tech4all said:
I read this by someone in the Mac mini's thread at top of the forum regarding the keyboard. If people don't buy an Apple keyboard but rather use a keyboard they already have from a PC; well a Mac keyboard and a PC keyboard are slightly different. I'm not sure about the layout, but I do know that PC keyboards do not have the Apple/Command key. So will people be able to do simple keyboard shortcuts? Am I missing something? 😕
They will work just fine either way. Funny you mention it though. At my desk I have swapped keyboards. I liked my Microsoft wireless setup so much I put it on my Mac and put my Pro Keyboard on my PC. I actually love this Microsoft Keyboard on my Mac. I have full iTunes controls, buttons for all my important apps, it's quite nice.

jon
 
dejo said:
I wouldn't say 0 expandability. You can add more memory, larger hard drive, SuperDrive. Just limited expandability. Many cheap PCs are in the same camp.

True! Crack open a Dell, see what you can expand. RAM, maybe. PCI cards, if you have the IRQ's to use 'em. Optical drives are nailed in, only one hard drive bay... and that hard drive bay is a pain in the ass to get to!
 
Mechcozmo said:
True! Crack open a Dell, see what you can expand. RAM, maybe. PCI cards, if you have the IRQ's to use 'em. Optical drives are nailed in, only one hard drive bay... and that hard drive bay is a pain in the ass to get to!

IRQs haven't been an issue for a couple generations of PCs now thanks to some chipset changes. I have never seen a Dell you couldn't replace the optical drive in or add another hard drive to just fine. Except for some plastic, most Dells aren't that different from a self-built PC. That's one of the reasons they are popular. Now, if you want to look at a POS Sony Vaio... 🙂

Lack of PCI slots on the mini isn't too big of a deal though, since only the G5 has PCI slot, there are barely any Mac PCI cards on the market, I know, I spent a lot of time looking for mine. 🙄 As long as you have a USB hub or firewire hub, the mac mini is in the same camp as iMacs except on memory and hard drive capacity (I assume it uses a laptop hard drive). For most people that seems to be fine.
 
raeble said:
Yeah and if this takes off like it's supposed to those hackers will start looking to make virus' that can affect osx. The only reason they don't bother is because hardly anybody uses it, but if you get between ten and twenty percent of people using it then it will start to look very attractive to them. 🙄

I like it but I think that it's not going to look half as nice once all the cables and wires and attachments are attached to it. One good thing about my crt monitor is it hides all the cables. 😀 I also think that you won't be able to just use it as is without buying someother accessories either a new keyboard or a usb hub for starters, then add more ram.

A few rebuttals... can't pass this up.

Have you ever met a "Hacker"? There are two basic camps...

1: Real, oldschool Hackers whose mischief is aimed at improving IT by exposing it's flaws. Methods are usually aimed at cracking security and/or causing a very specific system to loop, crash or revert to playing Pong.

2: What are now called "Data terrorists" who mainly write viruses.

This second camp, who are the "Hackers" you're referring to (and the media now sees as the only "Hackers" out there, although any real Hacker calls them Wankers).

Even these misfits know something you don't: NEVER WRITE VIRUSES FOR UNIX. Writing viruses to infect a 'nix system would effect so many truly essential systems that the thirty or so best hackers in history (who are now mostly admins in some very powerful places) would be through your firewall in about the time it takes you to upload your first Packet.

Add to this the fact that Windows is so easy to hack you can actually do it by accident... (did it this morning in fact.)

BTW: I most certainly can use a Mac Mini "as is" because it's replacing a FrankenBeige G3 with all USB accessories that just went tits up at the mobo level. I don't give a rat's ass how it looks, it'll do Golive 6 and Photoshop CS faster than my Beige ever could and keep me going long enough to get some $$ together for a G5 based machine.
 
mischief said:
Have you ever met a "Hacker"? There are two basic camps...

Not the person you were referring too, but I have met, and have been trained as a unix "hacker", and have worked with a whole crew of them. Now unfortunately I'm stuck on Windows, which is why I got a G5 at home. I miss Unix. 🙂 In this case, a "unix hacker" is referred to as any real hardcore unix guru who takes the time to get down to the guts and really understand the system and gain the skills needed to do not only vulnerability testing, but open-source contributions, kernel tweaking, driver writing etc. Back in the early days of unix, basically anyone who could use the machine was a hacker out of neccessity.

"Cracker" was the term used to define someone who was a hacker, but did so towards malicious means. The media apparently thought hacker sounded better and went with that. 🙂 So now we have admins, coders, hackers, script kiddies, etc. etc. both because of the media's twist on things, and because the field has brodened enough that people can speciallize and teenagers can get rootkits off p2p.
 
G4scott said:
That was a complaint about the iMac. You were stuck with the screen. If you wanted a different screen, too bad.


Ahhh, but why would you want another screen!!!

This is the first LCD I've ever owned, beats the heck out of my old 19" flat CRT. I'm enamored of it.
 
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