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The point is the tech giants engage in egregious censorship today. This isn't a hypothetical - it is an observable fact. Cry me a river if the ISPs decide to do the same.

If you wanted half the country to give a rat's ass about your precious "free and open" Internet, maybe you shouldn't have dumped buckets of crap on their heads for the past 2 years. Maybe it was unwise to ban, block, throttle and censor everyone you disagreed with. They may have felt invested in the current Internet.

To 50% of the country, the Internet is already a place where data gets treated unequally. They know the Internet is anything but "neutral". It is a domain ruled by radical leftist authoritarians who police thought at every turn, and the censorship is only getting more severe as each day goes by.

You are mistakenly conflating "the internet", the network, and "the internet", the available sites. That a particular site "censors" what it hosts and displays is completely different from the network providers blocking access to that site.
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What a bunch of nonsense and hyperbole. Online gaming doesn't suck up much bandwidth. An ISP wouldn't be able to limit access to a gaming service. That's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Plus, there already exists tier packages for internet bandwidth.

Instead of conjuring up ignorant BS for page 1 likes, maybe you should contact the mobile companies who push "unlimited streaming" but at 480p. lol. What a joke. That's "net neutrality" for you. Always catering to the lowest common denominator.

Sorry, but if I want to pay more, then I expect better service than someone who is a cheapskate. Period.

An ISP could restrict gaming. You want access to the Steam servers? that's part of our gaming package. It's not about bandwidth, it's about monetizing the pipe as much as possible.

Cellular is different. There is a much larger issue of bandwidth over cellular.
 
What has the government ever touched or regulated that helped the consumer? We don't need this in place. We need companies competing versus each other which creates better products and service. You don't need that regulated. Otherwise, it will all be the same. You guys are so worried about the "What if.... they charge $5/mo for Netflix". Guess what? Then the competitor won't charge that forcing the other company to not offer it as well. It's called capitalism! REAL Capitalism that isn't the kind you hear the left always talk about as being "bad". Government is a joke. Private companies and the people are what drives it all.

Most markets are either duopolies or monopolies already. What competition are you speaking of?
 
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I "trust" that as long as there is competition in the market your fears won't happen. You bring up profit like it is a bad thing. The amount of profit should not be included in a list of worries. Your concern is a perceived limiting of future access to the Internet. As long as open competition exists in the market place I don't see tiered access, as you have described it, happening. I think the society/public should be shown to be harmed by the actions of the ISPs before governments act against the people and the exchange of goods and services.
Well market competition has rarely prevented shady business practices in the past, especially in industries dominated by a few huge companies. This is good common sense regulation. It’s an industry with very little competition in the first place because in most areas there’s an almost monopolistic dominance of one or two companies. If the GOP really cared about competition and the market, they’d address THAT instead.
 
You are mistakenly conflating "the internet", the network, and "the internet", the available sites. That a particular site "censors" what it hosts and displays is completely different from the network providers blocking access to that site.

It really isn't different at all. Blocking, banning, demonetizing and censoring is very common on today's Internet. No reason ISPs should be blocked by law from doing the same. Don't like it? Use another ISP.

"Net neutrality" is stifling innovation and driving up prices. And it's a total double-standard where censorship gets applauded when the big tech monopolies engage in it (another Twitter purge coming in December).
 
It really isn't different at all. Blocking, banning, demonetizing and censoring is very common on today's Internet. No reason ISPs should be blocked by law from doing the same. Don't like it? Use another ISP.

"Net neutrality" is stifling innovation and driving up prices. And it's a total double-standard where censorship gets applauded when the big tech monopolies engage in it (another Twitter purge coming in December).
Can you explain what you mean by the bolded part?
 
No, still not quite there. You can access ANY site on ANY of their base packages. These add-ons give you 10GB of additional data for those specific sites that won't eat into your primary cap. So for example you can buy their cheap 500MB/mo plan and if you use a lot of streaming video get 10GB of streaming on top of that plan for 4.99. You do not need to pay anything extra to access any site if you won't want additional data cap.

Fair enough; my ability to read Portuguese is sub-par. I still do not care for internet sites separated by data any more than I do by access (of course access is worse, and not impossible if all ISPs decided to do it).
 
I think we mostly agree.

Most likely, I like a lot of the principle of Net Neutrality, I'm concerned about the impact on QoS and the ability of regulations to keep pace with innovation.

The Net Neutrality regulations as they exist today allow load balancing and what you describe. Nobody is arguing against that. The issue isn't that Mary's VoIP call gets prioritized over Bob's image download, the issue is when Verizon's VoIP service get's prioritized over a WhatsApp voice call. Both are VoIP, but Verizon as the ISP can play favorites with their own service to the detriment of their competitor. This is what people are mostly concerned with.

It allows for load balancing but not for QoS prioritization under the Title II approach. Peter Rysavy wrote about that a while back and what it would mean for network slicing (basically preventing it) on 5G networks. To me this is an important issue and needs to be both allowed and easily amended over time. We're entering the age of autonomous vehicles and although they'll have failsafes to operate when disconnected they will no doubt perform better when they can communicate with other networked vehicles and devices real time with low latency. I want to make sure that as new protocols are defined for those behaviors we're not mired in an 18 month comment period with the FCC where every special interest comes out of the woodwork claim some edge case why these devices don't deserve high QoS. The same could be said for streaming AR (motion sickness demands low latency so higher QoS needs than standard streaming video) or new technologies we haven't even dreamed up yet. The problem is how do you allow for quick adoption of new QoS requirements without just opening the floodgates to other sorts of packet discrimination which may not be so beneficial. I think that could be addressed by leaving QoS decisions to industry but making them apply QoS decisions universally by protocol and not allowing differences between providers of the same service category. That certainly doesn't adhere to what net neutrality purists want nor does it provide the total laissez faire approach that the antigovernment crowd wants but in my opinion something along those lines would be best for the health of the internet. There would be winners and losers per se in that approach (Skype would like that a lot more than Dropbox for example) but they would be reasonable considering the objectives of the various services.

T-Mobile is certainly testing the limits of what is acceptable. The problem is they aren't transparent about how to get approved. There isn't a public API or anything like that, which if you stream video using this API then it will be zero rated. They say they welcome any service, but that isn't really how it happens in practice.

I guess I don't know the specifics of how they onboard partners to that service but in principle I don't have a problem with packages like this.

I am certainly for anything that incentivizes efficiency, but there is a way to do it without letting ISPs essentially pick favorites and punish users of their competitors. You hit the nail on the head with comparing it to electricity - make internet a pay per unit service. Pay for every MB you download and upload, and people and apps will be very incentivized to become efficient.

I'm with you on the first half but we diverge on the second. I do NOT like the idea of an ISP throttling a competitor. Comcast limiting Netflix bandwidth when Comcast has an obvious vested interest in preventing disruption from streaming video is the sort of situation I seem as highly plausible and what I would want a net neutrality program to discourage (I don't think it can be fully prevented in a reasonable sense but certainly made difficult). Now there were subtleties there too (not that I want to hijack the thread) as that was a peering arrangement and the interconnect had limited throughput but I digress. By and large I think that outcome would be the most likely negative outcome of no regulation and that's what I think we need to protect against. The a la carte plans of pick your specific web sites are FUD.

As to your second point, I disagree. We had that early on in the internet (although I was very young at that point and don't really remember this first hand) with services like AOL and Prodigy that charged by the minute to access the internet. From what I've read people were careful to log on and do things very quickly then log off because there were horror stories of AOL bills in the hundreds of dollars (or more) due to high usage. Had independent ISPs not come along and started offering unlimited plans I don't think we'd have seen the massive growth of the internet that we ultimately did in the late 90s. I believe that usage of the internet should be encouraged. I can understand approaches to reduce impact on infrastructure while still providing (nearly) equal effect (e.g. opt in reducing video resolution on mobile devices where highest resolution often isn't the primary concern or transcoding to more efficient video codes or use of CDN and peering to get the data/application closer to the user and reduce backbone congestion etc...). Otherwise I think the access to information provided by the internet has too much societal benefit to make people nervous about their consumption in the name of conservation. I'm willing to talk about renewable energy for data centers and such but just the act of consuming data isn't a conservation concern in the sense of water usage or trash (and yes I understand it consumes electricity but that's why I'm open to talking about renewable energy to power those needs).

Giving one service a zero-rating for streaming in 480p while counting another newcomer service against usage caps is not the best way to get efficiency.

But it is a step. It's not the start up video and streaming services that are taxing mobile networks, it's the big players. Cutting bandwidth by 75% by dropping the Netflix/Youtube/Twitch/Hulu streams from 1080 to 480 is a good way to reduce congestion on cell towers. NotMyName Streaming Inc not participating in that plan but only accounting for 0.001% of traffic isn't a big deal. As my service grows I'd look into participating as well.

As I said above, the current Net Neutrality regulations allow QoS prioritization based on loads and real-world needs. They prohibit paid or anti-competetive prioritization. For very bad reasons, Trump's FCC want's to get rid of that.

It doesn't address the QoS problem though. If we can address that - and critically, in a way that doesn't throw up roadblocks to changes in those QoS categories - I'm fully on board.

And not that this thread needs more variables to consider but I'll also mention this. The Internet doesn't work like the picture I believe most people have in their head. I think most people have an outdated model that says if I connect to Google I'm transferring data from Mountain View, CA to my home in Manhattan and it rides along the "information superhighway" between those two points. That hasn't been the case for big players for some time now (and even modest players more recently). Big internet companies (and remember there are about 25-30 companies that are responsible for 50% of internet traffic) have peering and CDN arrangements. These companies host servers in the ISPs' data centers and connect their own routers right into their networks. When you request a search from Google you are not making that request across the backbone of the internet, you've hit a local data center and received your results from there. This has already then provided the "fast lane" people refer to if not in the specific way they've envisioned certainly in effect and that's completely legit under net neutrality regulations. So, even if we state a packet is a packet is a packet there's still the competitive advantage that larger players can get by geo-diversifying and getting their data closer to their customers than you can. I still think that's a good thing for the health of the internet though as it reduces backbone load and increases robustness. As I alluded to earlier this is also becoming feasible for lower end players as well, cloud computing (AWS, Azure) have geo-diverse options and CDN packages (Cloudflare etc...) are becoming more accessible. Still maybe not the right fit for a small startup trying to bootstrap but at the point they start scaling they can access these tools too. Sorry for the tangent but as others have mentioned (without really explaining) the Internet isn't a "fair" place even with net neutrality, there's more at play here than how you treat packets.
 
Providers are corporations not charities. If most people use those sites you mentioned, those sites should be in the highest tier, shouldn't they?

So, if more people use the roads leading to New York, the tolls for those roads should be higher, right?

We are not talking about the actual providers of content here. We are, instead, talking about the providers of the transportation mechanism used to reach providers of content.

Another analogy: the value of the phone network is directly related to the percentage of the population accessible from that network. If you can only reach ten percent of American citizens by calling them on the phone, the network as a whole is less useful than if you can reach ninety percent.
 
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We already have that. What is your point? I still feel like Net Neutrality was fixing something not really broken. It was always "this could happen" or "that might happen."
Not true. We don’t currently have deluxe packages with “fast lanes” and basic packages without access to those fast lanes, or restricted speeds based on which website is being accessed. Right now every level of service has equal access to all websites.
 
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It allows for load balancing but not for QoS prioritization under the Title II approach. Peter Rysavy wrote about that a while back and what it would mean for network slicing (basically preventing it) on 5G networks.

I would be totally ok with two sets of rules: one set for wired land-based internet connections and another for wireless internet. I don't think this would fly on the face of net neutrality principles either.

I recognize there are very legitimate bandwidth concerns with wireless internet, and the difficulties in managing that traffic. The same set of rules that applies to wired land-based internet cannot apply to the wireless spectrum.

Network slicing is necessary for 5g. It is not necessary for fiber home connection, or even cable based home connections.

I am, personally, primarily concerned with land-based wired internet. As you said, I don't want the Comcasts and Verizons of the world throttling their own competitors, or taking payments from big companies to have competitors of said big companies throttled. Unfortunately the monopolistic reality of the current market means some regulation is necessary to prevent these things. For me, if it's a binary choice between having an inadequate QoS system where some services such as VoIP experience hiccups and a perfect QoS but where ISP's are allowed to run wild with anti-consumer behavior, I choose the former every time. Ideally, neither would be an issue.

Either way, the heavy-handed approach of undoing all Net Neutrality regulations that Pai is proposing is absolutely the wrong approach in my opinion. Indeed, it is the typical approach of the GOP. When they identify an issue with a regulation, they always want to just throw the baby out with the bathwater. I would love to the FCC to have a fulsome debate, like we are having, about the pros and cons of various changes and improvements to the Net Neutrality regulations. But getting rid of it wholesale is wrong. I would support changes that facilitate a speedier 5G rollout. I would support changes that incentivize users, app developers, and ISPs to be more efficient. But I will not support just getting giving the ISPs a free-for-all unregulated rein.
 
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I would be totally ok with two sets of rules: one set for wired land-based internet connections and another for wireless internet. I don't think this would fly on the face of net neutrality principles either.

I recognize there are very legitimate bandwidth concerns with wireless internet, and the difficulties in managing that traffic. The same set of rules that applies to wired land-based internet cannot apply to the wireless spectrum.

Network slicing is necessary for 5g. It is not necessary for fiber home connection, or even cable based home connections.

I am, personally, primarily concerned with land-based wired internet. As you said, I don't want the Comcasts and Verizons of the world throttling their own competitors, or taking payments from big companies to have competitors of said big companies throttled. Unfortunately the monopolistic reality of the current market means some regulation is necessary to prevent these things. For me, if it's a binary choice between having an inadequate QoS system where some services such as VoIP experience hiccups and a perfect QoS but where ISP's are allowed to run wild with anti-consumer behavior, I choose the former every time. Ideally, neither would be an issue.

Either way, the heavy-handed approach of undoing all Net Neutrality regulations that Pai is proposing is absolutely the wrong approach in my opinion. Indeed, it is the typical approach of the GOP. When they identify an issue with a regulation, they always want to just throw the baby out with the bathwater. I would love to the FCC to have a fulsome debate, like we are having, about the pros and cons of various changes and improvements to the Net Neutrality regulations. But getting rid of it wholesale is wrong. I would support changes that facilitate a speedier 5G rollout. I would support changes that incentivize users, app developers, and ISPs to be more efficient. But I will not support just getting giving the ISPs a free-for-all unregulated rein.

Lots of overlap in our positions and a few contrasts. Thanks for the civilized discussion :)
 
What has the government ever touched or regulated that helped the consumer? We don't need this in place. We need companies competing versus each other which creates better products and service. You don't need that regulated. Otherwise, it will all be the same. You guys are so worried about the "What if.... they charge $5/mo for Netflix". Guess what? Then the competitor won't charge that forcing the other company to not offer it as well. It's called capitalism! REAL Capitalism that isn't the kind you hear the left always talk about as being "bad". Government is a joke. Private companies and the people are what drives it all.[/QUOTE

yeah the government knows what is better for private companies .
 
I'd love to think that one ISP would stand up and enshrine net neutrality in every customer contract, and everyone would switch to them. Wishful thinking, I know...
I don’t think it will be. Major companies might adapt crappy practices at first. But just like major food companies make products rife with pesticides and chemicals, there are smaller companies making non-GMO and organic foods. And eventually, those “innovations” are becoming more mainstream and are being adapted by large brands and retail chains like Walmart amen Costco. It will become a branding exercise and shrewd companies will want to be on the right side of this.

Of course, like organic food, there will possibly be a premium for net neutrality. But pricing will become dicey because what is the baseline? Packages that restrict “heavy” websites will appear to be VERY cheap and distort the perception of prices in the market. The question is how much of a premium can be charged before it’s no longer “net neutrality”?

There could be a company that changes zero premium, but they’d inevitably make less margin, which they’d have to hope they could make up in volume. The problem inherent in that being that the more customers, then the more traffic, the more traffic then the more infrastructure would needed. So it would be a tough road to hoe.

A company with that model might be able to succeed if they were able to target and market to customers that buy internet but don’t use it much, but that’s a weird situation in and of itself since people who don’t use the web much likely won’t care as much about net neautrality.

In a weird way, it’s sort of similar to the problem that insurance marketplaces have. They need healthy people (low volume internet users) who don’t use medical services much to participate so they can offset the cost of unhealthy people (high volume internet users)

The whole thing coukd be f-ed up, and very tricky, but I think that some clever, nimble companies that understand the power of branding and want to market to informed consumers might be able to succeed with a net neutral offering that’s not so expensive that it’s no longer “neutral”.
 
If I find that my ISP is not doing what I like, I move to one that does.

The government is NEVER the answer.

Assumes that US companies will not engage in monopolistic practices. As if... And for the record, the US government does not provide the internet. It just currently regulates it, but won't any more. (Also, given your attitude, I wonder do you call if you seem someone breaking into your house? Just curious.)
 
No we don't. We have service packages based on speed and, in some places, on data use, but not on actual content or specific websites (and even when there is a data cap, it is neutral in regard to what websites use the data). Now consider this carrier in Portugal, which does not have net neutrality regulations:

FwCIsF5.jpg


I do not ever want to see something like this in the U.S. In other words, what websites you can access depend on your plan, and they are grouped into packages like channels in a cable TV plan. In addition to implementing a scheme like this, a provider could theoretically slow down a competitor's streaming service and speed up their own. This is especially problematic in rural areas where they may only be one ISP to choose from.

Regarding to Portugal's Altice MEO carrier, that information is not accurate. Internet is spreading this BS. You don't have to pay anything if you want to access those services. You only pay if you want unlimited data, pretty much like Vodafone does in the UK, Spain, New Zealand, and other countries:
https://www.vodafone.co.uk/pass/

Of course I support net neutrality, but this is just ridiculous. Altice MEO is not limiting the services you can access.
 
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So how do we stop this BS ?!

Write Congress. Sign on-line petitions. Make this an issue for which legislatures perceive they could win or lose votes. Actually I think this is important, for the internet has revolutionised free speech as much as the printing press (for good and for bad, perhaps, but mostly for the good).
 
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Assumes that US companies will not engage in monopolistic practices. As if... And for the record, the US government does not provide the internet. It just currently regulates it, but won't any more. (Also, given your attitude, I wonder do you call if you seem someone breaking into your house? Just curious.)


If George Soros paid big bucks for this crap to be enacted, I would rather see it go away!
 
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IDK, but they can always block VPN. It relies on some L4 protocol that (mostly) nothing else uses, right?
Edit: Nah, I think I'm wrong. The ones I've seen use GRE, but there are TCP ones. But if the ISP uses a whitelist by ipaddr, it's game over.

In the age of “cloud” and CDNs, I don’t see how this is realistic for an ISP unless they also block all but their own DNS. While I do believe Internet should remain pretty much a dumb pipe, some of the FUD in this thread is a bit out there.
 
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