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Yet Korea's internet infrastructure is a fair bit more regulated in comparison to ours. One of the biggest reasons why internet penetration has become to widspread and well developed there is because the government took an active interest in it.

Though it does have downsides, such as a complete lack of internet anonymity.

Our copper infrastructure is under a lot more price regulation. Verizon, one of the main opponents of net neutrality, had no incentive to build up their existing copper network to support faster DSL, the way Korean telcos did, because they would not have been able to reap the financial benefits of doing so. "Renzatic Virtual Carrier" or anyone else could have demanded access to the last mile connection at rates that wouldn't justify the investment (since DSL operates best over short distances). Hence the reason that they, AT&T, and others invested in fiber optic. Those networks, up to now, have been exempt from the Title II regulations.

Our fiber optic networks are just as fast as in any other country. However, they aren't as widespread since the telcos had to start from scratch, and had a lot more territory to cover than, say Korean companies.

The other disincentive has been state and local governments striking essentially monopoly deals with telcos to freeze out competition. What's needed is more competition by getting rid of these sweetheart deals, rather than more regulation. The problem with highly regulated entities is that they have little incentive but to meet the bare minimum the regulators require.
 
And those rate increases compared to years before? People scream rate increase but when it is compare to historical increases they are about the same at worse but most of the time less.

As for your "free market" solution of do not use crapcast. Well considering 80% of the population does not have a choice in broadband provider does not work.

about $15000 over two years is normal???

And your second comment...force a monopoly...do you know what a monopoly does? My cable bill locally is $350 for 55 channels from comcast...I'm using Satellite because of that. The government isn't controlling the cost, only the content. Force a local monopoly and there will be no competitive prices, why would anyone try?

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If it were so simple as jumping from Comcast to another high tier service provider, you'd have a point. But since the only choice 99% of people have in the states that Comcast covers is Comcast, or overpriced crap, they've pretty much got everyone in their service areas by the balls. They can do what they want, not what the market demands.

Quite simply, the free market argument doesn't work when everyone only has one government protected monopoly of a choice per service area.

On top of that, there are many other reasons why Comcast forcing Netflix to pay for access to their customers is beyond fishy, but let's stick to the basics.

Again, there's a workaround that I posted...it may cost a few more $$ a month, but would not lead us into a government controlled monopoly. You're suggesting freezing us into a monopoly in those areas...I live in one. Your solution would force me not to work around those limits. Plus, I lose my internet freedom. I have enough of that at work...I don't need it at home.
 
about $15000 over two years is normal???

And your second comment...force a monopoly...do you know what a monopoly does? My cable bill locally is $350 for 55 channels from comcast...I'm using Satellite because of that. The government isn't controlling the cost, only the content. Force a local monopoly and there will be no competitive prices, why would anyone try?
First off I questions your 15k increase and it is worthless with our perspective in percentages.

As for the cable vs satellite that is TV. Not a choice in broadband.

Again what world are you living in that you get a choice in ISP broadband speeds. In crapcast example in most of crapcast service area your choice for broadband is crapcast or well crapcast. In those areas they make zero effort to improve things as guess what no one is a threat. They fight letting anyone get the permits to build. They also use there government give monopolies from the past knowing no one can afford to enter.

Either way you live in a fantasy world if you think you have a choice in broadband in most of this country.
 
Our copper infrastructure is under a lot more price regulation. Verizon, one of the main opponents of net neutrality, had no incentive to build up their existing copper network to support faster DSL, the way Korean telcos did, because they would not have been able to reap the financial benefits of doing so. "Renzatic Virtual Carrier" or anyone else could have demanded access to the last mile connection at rates that wouldn't justify the investment (since DSL operates best over short distances). Hence the reason that they, AT&T, and others invested in fiber optic. Those networks, up to now, have been exempt from the Title II regulations.

Our fiber optic networks are just as fast as in any other country. However, they aren't as widespread since the telcos had to start from scratch, and had a lot more territory to cover than, say Korean companies.

I'll concede this point to you. It is much more difficult, expensive task to roll out a widespread network that's as efficient and speedy as what South Korea enjoys because we're a much larger, less urbanized country. Quite simply, it's too large a task for any one company to tackle. If you take away the draw of potential profits, no one will even try.

And this next point, which is very much the truth...

The other disincentive has been state and local governments striking essentially monopoly deals with telcos to freeze out competition. What's needed is more competition by getting rid of these sweetheart deals, rather than more regulation. The problem with highly regulated entities is that they have little incentive but to meet the bare minimum the regulators require.

This is the root issue right here. If there were better competition among ISPs, we wouldn't need the government to step in and play consumer advocate.

As some people here are wont to say, businesses exist for one reason, and one reason only: to make money. It's true. In most healthy markets, businesses make money by catering to your needs. It's a win/win situation for all parties involved. The business gets paid, and you get the service or goods you paid for.

But in instances where a single business has control of a popular or necessary service, they have no driving need to offer you your money's worth. We, as a society, have become dependent on the internet, and entrenched companies like Comcast know this. They have no incentive to offer you the most bang for your buck, because they know they're getting your money regardless. Instead of being their customer, you're now their commodity. One that can be taken advantage of.

And it's because of this that we need mandates like Net Neutrality to protect consumer interests.
 
I always love when people act like the federal government is one entity, when in fact is is many small entities.

Just because service A doesn't work for you, doesn't mean services B-Z all suck. And just because service A does work for you, doesn't mean services B-Z will all be awesome.

The ACA lowered my healthcare costs, but that doesn't mean I think it's the final solution to healthcare/insurance in our country.

The FCC regulating internet providers is just about the only thing that can be done to ensure customers don't continue to get screwed over in the US. It's practically impossible to break up the monopolies. You can split Comcast into 10 different companies, but each of those companies will have monopolies in whatever region they're in. Practically no competition still. No one would be willing to come in and invest major money (not even Google) to build infrastructure for a vast majority of the cities here, let alone rural areas.

So instead of saying OMG REGULATION X DOESN'T WORK THAT MEANS THIS IS GOING TO SUCK, realize that there are many regulations that DO work, and this may very well be one of them. Remember, we have clean water, safe roads, safe cars, etc because of regulations.
 
Here's another though...this is also pushing bandwidth out. It's nice...but too nice. There are more than enough areas that don't have broadband or fiber. The companies who service those would be required to install it...in rural areas, this would bankrupt them.

My hometown example:
Watersystem was built to support thousands in my hometown.
The population is less then 1,000.
It was originally built to support whirlpool's factories, but Ohio's massive steel tax hike sent them out of town.
Now my grandparents have been fighting the utilities because the bill is about $1,300 a month to support the cost. They cut the water and went back to their old well water.
The case was referred to the city who literally destroyed their well system to force them to use city.
They still can't pay so they use jugs and don't shower now.
Their house is now facing being condemned because they don't pay for water.

That city is almost dead because of that choice. Why is it similar? Your forcing small companies to expend more capital than they have to build an non-profitable infrastructure. The gov't would have to increase taxes to support these companies. That gets past on to us, and the gov't is not really efficient with tax money...probably double the cost that it actually would be...maybe more.
 
"if you like you health plan you can keep it."

i don't believe anything that spews from his mouth....

"If you like your internet you can keep your internet"...

The Internet is the most free venue for thoughts, creation, and ideas- it has done just fine without government intrusion- how many support other countries governments censoring the Internet or controlling it in any way shape or form.

Net neutrality is bad.
 
First off I questions your 15k increase and it is worthless with our perspective in percentages.

As for the cable vs satellite that is TV. Not a choice in broadband.

Again what world are you living in that you get a choice in ISP broadband speeds. In crapcast example in most of crapcast service area your choice for broadband is crapcast or well crapcast. In those areas they make zero effort to improve things as guess what no one is a threat. They fight letting anyone get the permits to build. They also use there government give monopolies from the past knowing no one can afford to enter.

Either way you live in a fantasy world if you think you have a choice in broadband in most of this country.

Reference my earlier post...
As for my healthcare...used to be $350 a year, now in CA, it's running me $15000 a year starting this year since it goes up every year. I make too much to get any credits.

Referencing Cable is referencing a monopoly example. For some reason, Comcast does not consider satellite on prices.
 
"If you like your internet you can keep your internet"...

The Internet is the most free venue for thoughts, creation, and ideas- it has done just fine without government intrusion- how many support other countries governments censoring the Internet or controlling it in any way shape or form.

Net neutrality is bad.

That's the thing. Net Neutrality isn't about the government controlling the internet. We've effectively been governed by it since the internet became a widespread thing.

At its most basic, it's quite the opposite of control. The government is saying ISPs have no say in controlling what data gets to you at what speed. They're effectively having to act as a pipe, rather than a pumping station, so to speak.

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Referencing Cable is referencing a monopoly example. For some reason, Comcast does not consider satellite on prices.

We're not talking about TV. We're talking about internet.

Have you seen how satellite internet compares to cable or fiber? It's slow, laggy, expensive, and most enforce a low data cap. You'd be paying at least the same price for a service that offers not even a quarter of the quality.
 
"If you like your internet you can keep your internet"...

The Internet is the most free venue for thoughts, creation, and ideas- it has done just fine without government intrusion- how many support other countries governments censoring the Internet or controlling it in any way shape or form.

Net neutrality is bad.

Honestly, people should look at China...that's the framework the plan is designed to work towards. At work, my internet is the plan we will get...it is the government system that they want...I hate it. We have fiber optics, but youtube won't play because it is "equalized."

People will argue this just as they argued for ACA...I tried to explain it and people somehow still fight for it...except in areas where it's falling apart. San Fan, there are doctor shortages now. Spokane, WA, doctors are moving out because their pay is directed by the cost of Seattle...which puts them indefinitely working in the negative. My personal story, I had to wait two years to get my ACL fixed due to doctor availability. ACA really worked guys. I think net neutrality will as well. If we vote for it...we deserve to be restricted like China.

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That's the thing. Net Neutrality isn't about the government controlling the internet. We've effectively been governed by it since the internet became a widespread thing.

At its most basic, it's quite the opposite of control. The government is saying ISPs have no say in controlling what data gets to you at what speed. They're effectively having to act as a pipe, rather than a pumping station, so to speak.

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We're not talking about TV. We're talking about internet.

Have you seen how satellite internet compares to cable or fiber? It's slow, laggy, expensive, and most enforce a low data cap. You'd be paying at least the same price for a service that offers not even a quarter of the quality.

Again, I was referencing a monopoly example outside of the internet discussion...I was using specifically TV...not internet, to show the effects of monopoly.

Also, regulating via net neutrality is all about controlling information...my work is THIS SYSTEM. I get tons of blocked websites...including cultofmac.com. That's forbidden for some reason.
 
While they can vote and classify all they want. There are huge constitutional issues concerning internet regulation.

While other utilities provide delivery of physical goods (water, electric, natural gas, etc.) the Internet is a information relay system with with as much protection as a printing press.

The moment the FCC tries to regulate the Internet further, everyone in the business will slap lawsuits on the FCC and Federal Government in general claiming regulation of any fixed communication speed (high or low) is unconstitutional.

I can easily see the major ISPs just refusing to obey the rules getting a Stay of Enforcement 'til the courts have their say.
 
Also, regulating via net neutrality is all about controlling information...my work is THIS SYSTEM. I get tons of blocked websites...including cultofmac.com. That's forbidden for some reason.

No, it's not. It's about the neutrality of data. No one is blocking or slowing down anything. If you want it, you get it. You want to watch Netflix? Then don't have to pay Comcast an extra $15 a month on top of the $60 you're already paying them now to get the service you're paying $10 for. It's the internet cost, and the subscription cost. Not the internet, the high speed lane specifically for Netflix, then Netflix.

By the way, where do you work or live that CultofMac is a blacklisted website?
 
FCC, please tell the major ISPs to lower their prices for internet access. I pay around $35 for 3 Mbps DSL... come on...

I'll gladly pay the $125 per month I pay if they make it 1 Gb/s down, and at least 100 Mb/s up.
 
Another example of gov't regulation effects:

My plane is government regulated despite my co-worker's opinions. These numbers do no reflect the actual numbers but show the same issue:

Altitude min Speed
5000 200
7500 210
9999 220
10000 350
12500 350
and so on

We have a need to go slower, but the aircraft can't. The argument is that it is limited by the flight envelope. In the many planes I have flow, Ive never seen 1 foot increase in altitude have a massive speed change requirements. After seeing tons of examples of similar stuff...a lot of us have figured out our plane is simply regulated to no work optimally.

FYI, a computer controls the speed...not me.
 
While they can vote and classify all they want. There are huge constitutional issues concerning internet regulation.

While other utilities provide delivery of physical goods (water, electric, natural gas, etc.) the Internet is a information relay system with with as much protection as a printing press.

Net Neutrality isn't violating the first amendment or the rights of the press because it's not regulating anything except the ISPs determining how that Free Speech gets to you.
 
No, it's not. It's about the neutrality of data. No one is blocking or slowing down anything. If you want it, you get it. You want to watch Netflix? Then don't have to pay Comcast an extra $15 a month on top of the $60 you're already paying them now to get the service you're paying $10 for. It's the internet cost, and the subscription cost. Not the internet, the high speed lane specifically for Netflix, then Netflix.

By the way, where do you work or live that CultofMac is a blacklisted website?

I'm work at the same company (if you want to call it that) as the people writing the net neutrality bill.

I would like to mention again, what China has is what we are building. If you think that this will not restrict what we can see...thank you, then not being able to reach that site is a figment of my imagination and China actually has no internet access problems because their government is completely trustworthy.
 
Net Neutrality isn't violating the first amendment or the rights of the press because it's not regulating anything except the ISPs determining how that Free Speech gets to you.

Actually it does. Speed of information flow has been ruled by many courts as much of a right of Free Speech as the content.

Case history goes all the way back to newspapers in the 19th century being kept from printing articles 'til after elections. The government was making claims that speech was no suppressed since they eventually distributed their content. However, the newspapers were claiming it was as they were not able to effect elections. Same goes here.

Either way, there is always a bypass. Several start-ups out here are looking to bypass IP addresses and name servers all together.

You can never get the genie back in the bottle.
 
Honestly, people should look at China...that's the framework the plan is designed to work towards. At work, my internet is the plan we will get...it is the government system that they want...I hate it. We have fiber optics, but youtube won't play because it is "equalized."

People will argue this just as they argued for ACA...I tried to explain it and people somehow still fight for it...except in areas where it's falling apart. San Fan, there are doctor shortages now. Spokane, WA, doctors are moving out because their pay is directed by the cost of Seattle...which puts them indefinitely working in the negative. My personal story, I had to wait two years to get my ACL fixed due to doctor availability. ACA really worked guys. I think net neutrality will as well. If we vote for it...we deserve to be restricted like China.

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Again, I was referencing a monopoly example outside of the internet discussion...I was using specifically TV...not internet, to show the effects of monopoly.

Also, regulating via net neutrality is all about controlling information...my work is THIS SYSTEM. I get tons of blocked websites...including cultofmac.com. That's forbidden for some reason.

My work is regulated according to our contracts, and is also filtered. This is a business internet, and business internets often times include security, and content filters, to maintain a safe network, and an appropriate work environment. This is NOT net neutrality.

Net Neutrality is the complete opposite. Comcast, TWC, Verizon, would not be able to shape your internet traffic. They can't slow down Netflix to black mail Netflix into paying them money to speed up the traffic. They won't be able to sabotage competing services with traffic shaping. They won't be able to completely block various sorts of data transfers. Net Neutrality is about ensuring the customer is getting a big dumb pipe of data, and all the data you request, or upload is treated equally.

Stop spreading misinformation.
 
Actually it does. Speed of information flow has been ruled by many courts as much of a right of Free Speech as the content.

So you're saying that you're perfectly alright with a 3rd party controlling how fast the things you say get to other people? That's like saying everyone has the right to free speech, so long as they can afford the fees.

In a net neutrality situation, the ISPs don't have the right to say that some sources of information can get to you faster than other, rather than you buying in to how fast you want to get that information. I'm for the latter. If you want a faster connection, you have to pay for it, then all the info comes to you equally at that speed. But I'm against the former, because it treats some things better than others according to the whims of the company controlling how the info gets to you.
 
How will it lead to the destruction of the internet? All data being treated the same is exactly how it's been administrated for the last 30 odd years!

All data hasn't been treated exactly the same for 30 odd years.

You are incorrect.

Data has never been treated equal so why do we need the federal government to start regulating (IE Taxing) something that works perfectly find (tax free) now?
 
Actually it does. Speed of information flow has been ruled by many courts as much of a right of Free Speech as the content.

Case history goes all the way back to newspapers in the 19th century being kept from printing articles 'til after elections. The government was making claims that speech was no suppressed since they eventually distributed their content. However, the newspapers were claiming it was as they were not able to effect elections. Same goes here.

Either way, there is always a bypass. Several start-ups out here are looking to bypass IP addresses and name servers all together.

You can never get the genie back in the bottle.

Thank God for people like you. I hope the internet genie can't be put back in the bottle. In China, it's a constant battle with proxies and VPNs. It's easy enough to restrict sites by ip, and then proxies and VPNs by IP as well. If this goes through, I think it will be a cat and mouse game much like jailbreaking the iPhone is.
 
Really? Have you looked at Sweden or Finland, or the Netherlands? they have this very exact setup, and have much faster broadband speeds than we have in the US. And if I remember right, no tax increase.

BL.

They also have much more dense population centers. What is your point?
 
So you're saying that you're perfectly alright with a 3rd party controlling how fast the things you say get to other people? That's like saying everyone has the right to free speech, so long as they can afford the fees.

In a net neutrality situation, the ISPs don't have the right to say that some sources of information can get to you faster than other, rather than you buying in to how fast you want to get that information. I'm for the latter. If you want a faster connection, you have to pay for it. But I'm against the former, because it treats some things better than others according to the whims of the person controlling how the info gets to you.

Yup. That is what I am saying. Private ownership can control their own equipment networking speed since it is their right under Free Speech.

However, the Federal Government can't dictate network speed just as they cannot regulate a newspapers publishing schedule.

Those are the arguments you'll see in court.
 
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