Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
How? It's an option used to wipe and disable the phone remotely in case of theft. How would that be considered a downside?

I gave you two reasons why people might not like a kill switch on their phone. There could be others as well.

Because the cost to implement such a feature isn't necessarily any more expensive than implementing Find My iPhone, GPS Navigation, or iCloud. Hell, there you go. It could be bundled as part of iCloud.

Some smartphones don't have Find my iPhone, GPS navigation, or iCloud. And people buy those phones because they don't care about those features, don't want them, or want to save money. And it is their right to do so, and it is the right of the manufacturer to supply it.

And ultimately it doesn't matter how responsible you think you are. You could be the most responsible individual on the face of the earth, but if someone mugs you or picks your pocket, then they have your phone. And once someone has physical access to your phone, breaking through any security checks and passwords you might have implemented is only a matter of time. You might as well have the option to wipe your cell phone remotely to keep them from getting at your personal information.

Great. So you think the government knows better than the individual and they must look out for you against your will. That means you clearly don't understand the whole concept of 'freedom' or you don't give a damn about it.

Either way, you have the option to buy a phone with theft prevention on it, and I should have the option to buy a phone without it. When an individual pays money for a product, they understand the risks involved, and should be able to make their own educated decisions on what features and handsets are right for them.

It's about the same risk someone has of hackers breaking into the App Store and stealing all your credit card information. When you're using something over the internet, there's always some inherent risk involved. You have to weigh the pros with the cons.

And in this case, the pros outweigh the cons.

Bricking your phone is not the same as stealing your information. Then again, someone can make an iTunes store account with gift credit cards so nothing too pertinent is lost.

Either way, this has nothing to do with the government mandating that every phone must have a feature that some people might not want.

How is requesting a security feature infringing on their liberties? It's a mandated security standard. A move designed to give end users more power over their phones in order to minimize identity theft.

If a consumer would like to purchase a product without that feature, and a manufacturer is willing to make that product without that feature, but cannot do so because the law says they are not allowed, that is violating the liberty of both the consumer and the manufacturer from making a voluntary and mutually beneficial exchange.

And the only thing the government mandate does is standardize it as a feature across all smartphones. Since the Free Market :angelic choir: is already doing it, the only thing this mandate does is solidify it's adoption across the board.

I don't want adoption across the board. That's exactly the point. People should have CHOICES.


It's a goddamn feature. The end user isn't being forced to use anything. They could ignore it entirely if they wanted to. All the government is doing is...as I said above...setting a mandate in order for it to become a standard.

It's like credit card security. For a bank to offer credit cards as a service, they have to adhere to a certain number of standards and regulations before they're allowed to do so in order to minimize damage as much as possible in the event of a personal worst case scenario. This is roughly the same thing. It's another security option.

And security options shouldn't be dependent upon what a manufacturer feels like they should or shouldn't do.

The end user is forced to have a phone with software installed that is capable of bricking a phone. Period. Again, what might be a beneficial feature to some is a hinderance to others.

The underlying reason for this legislation is an honorable one but the unintended consequences aren't worth the benefits as it stifles consumer choice, competition, and liberty.
 
Lets build smart phones with a small bomb in it that can be triggered remotely when its stolen.... :D
 
I gave you two reasons why people might not like a kill switch on their phone. There could be others as well.

Yeah, and they're not good reasons.

Some smartphones don't have Find my iPhone, GPS navigation, or iCloud. And people buy those phones because they don't care about those features, don't want them, or want to save money. And it is their right to do so, and it is the right of the manufacturer to supply it.

Nothing is being shoved down people's throats, and the choice to use the it is ultimately left in the user's hands. See, it's simply a security feature, there if you need it, but otherwise completely and totally out of the way.

The only real cost will be to the manufacturers, and for them, it's a minor inconvenience. The cost to them to implement and maintain it would be considerably less than it would be to those unfortunate people who use their cheap smartphones to store important information, and have no recourse to protect themselves in the event they get stolen.

Great. So you think the government knows better than the individual and they must look out for you against your will. That means you clearly don't understand the whole concept of 'freedom' or you don't give a damn about it.

You're using freedom as a buzzword without actually thinking about what it means. Think about it. What freedoms am I losing by having a feature available to me that's completely within my choice to use.

It's like catalytic convertors on vehicles. All cars used and manufactured in the US are required by law to have one installed. Am I losing any personal freedoms because I don't have the choice to go out and buy a new car off the lot that doesn't have one installed?

They're not "looking out for me", not "doing what they think is best", nor forcing anything down my throat. They're making smartphone manufacturers provide an option for me to better look out for myself.

Either way, you have the option to buy a phone with theft prevention on it, and I should have the option to buy a phone without it. When an individual pays money for a product, they understand the risks involved, and should be able to make their own educated decisions on what features and handsets are right for them.

Freedom isn't about having every pointless option available to you. You don't like it? Well, that's your prerogative. You're not losing anything by having it there. It won't even make a measurable difference in the overall cost of a smartphone. But it's unwanted presence does ultimately present you yourself with more options to protect yourself. Your rights and freedoms aren't being infringed upon.

The rest of your post is a repeat of what I've already covered above. Having an optional service that costs practically nothing forced upon you doesn't limit your freedoms in any way whatsoever.
 
Yeah, and they're not good reasons.

Well, if you want to be the dictator and decide what reasons are good and bad, then you can go ahead and move to North Korea and nestle up close to Kim Jong Un.

You don't get to decide what constitutes a good reason for other people to want or not want something. That's what freedom is all about.

Nothing is being shoved down people's throats, and the choice to use the it is ultimately left in the user's hands. See, it's simply a security feature, there if you need it, but otherwise completely and totally out of the way.

If you cannot buy a smart phone without a breaking feature, then yes, it's being shoved down the consumer's throat. They don't have the choice.

The only real cost will be to the manufacturers, and for them, it's a minor inconvenience. The cost to them to implement and maintain it would be considerably less than it would be to those unfortunate people who use their cheap smartphones to store important information, and have no recourse to protect themselves in the event they get stolen.

Economics 101: when new costs are incurred by a business, those costs are passed onto consumers. And those who buy less expensive phones know the risks and benefits associated with buying a phone with or without a bricking feature.

You're using freedom as a buzzword without actually thinking about what it means. Think about it. What freedoms am I losing by having a feature available to me that's completely within my choice to use.

It's like catalytic convertors on vehicles. All cars used and manufactured in the US are required by law to have one installed. Am I losing any personal freedoms because I don't have the choice to go out and buy a new car off the lot that doesn't have one installed?

They're not "looking out for me", not "doing what they think is best", nor forcing anything down my throat. They're making smartphone manufacturers provide an option for me to better look out for myself.

Yes, you are losing your freedom to buy a less expensive vehicle.

Catalytic converters are extremely expensive, and you pay for them when you buy your vehicle. I'm in the recreational vehicle business, and when catalytic converters were mandated on our equipment, our prices increased by 4%.

Freedom isn't about having every pointless option available to you. You don't like it? Well, that's your prerogative. You're not losing anything by having it there. It won't even make a measurable difference in the overall cost of a smartphone. But it's unwanted presence does ultimately present you yourself with more options to protect yourself. Your rights and freedoms aren't being infringed upon.

The rest of your post is a repeat of what I've already covered above. Having an optional service that costs practically nothing forced upon you doesn't limit your freedoms in any way whatsoever.

If you don't want software on your phone that is capable of it being bricked by a third party, then yes, you are having your liberty violated. I already explained to you in the last post why this is the case.

Logically, your argument is full of holes. "You don't want it? Too bad. It's good for you and everyone else. You don't have to use it. But it has to be there and you will have to pay for the price increase. But don't worry; it's only a very marginal increase."

Tell me again how that sounds like freedom?

I am not using liberty as a buzz word. You just don't understand how it works. Why don't you take a look at this video and freshen up?

http://youtu.be/muHg86Mys7I
 
The purpose of a kill switch is to control dissidents, and has nothing to do with theft.

How's that tinfoil hat?

----------

Yes, you are losing your freedom to buy a less expensive vehicle.

Catalytic converters are extremely expensive, and you pay for them when you buy your vehicle. I'm in the recreational vehicle business, and when catalytic converters were mandated on our equipment, our prices increased by 4%

But you gain the freedom to live in a less polluted country...

I mean Jesus Christ you'd have thought that Americans complaining about overegulation and cars would complain about the obviously biggest issue which is the comedy low speed limits.

Or the overegulation that has made selling diesel cars at all difficult in the US.
 
Well, if you want to be the dictator and decide what reasons are good and bad, then you can go ahead and move to North Korea and nestle up close to Kim Jong Un.

So what you're saying is that you really don't have an informed opinion on anything, just a bunch of rhetoric bouncing around in your head that you spew out when certain criteria is met in a conversation.

Thanks for posting this. It saved me from wasting my time with you.

God...I can't help myself.

If you don't want software on your phone that is capable of it being bricked by a third party, then yes, you are having your liberty violated. I already explained to you in the last post why this is the case.

Logically, your argument is full of holes. "You don't want it? Too bad. It's good for you and everyone else. You don't have to use it. But it has to be there and you will have to pay for the price increase. But don't worry; it's only a very marginal increase."

Tell me again how that sounds like freedom?

I am not using liberty as a buzz word. You just don't understand how it works. Why don't you take a look at this video and freshen up?

http://youtu.be/muHg86Mys7I

BECAUSE IT'S NOT DESIGNED TO BE BRICKED BY A THIRD PARTY! IT'S AN OPTION AVAILABLE TO YOU THAT'S TIED TO YOUR GODDAMN ACCOUNT!
 
Last edited:
How about enforcing the laws that make stealing stuff illegal?

Making laws is to look good...nothing glamorous about enforcement...

Unrealistic.

The reason the laws are not "enforced" is because Police Departments don't have thousands of dollars to throw down the toilet by hiring a bunch of detectives so that they can roam the city trying to find your stolen $600 (pre-subsidy) iPhone and hauling the thief to jail, when they really really need to be solving murder cases and things like homicides and drive-by shootings.

For the same reason, jails are overcrowded, they lack funds, and therefore they often release petty criminals early (letting them off the hook). Only the serious felons are kept locked up.

Police Departments are broke. County governments are broke. City governments are broke. Much of the USA (public services like USPS) are financially struggling. The resources are limited, so the police have to pick and choose what cases they will pursue. Your stolen iPhone is not a priority. You can keep reporting the theft of your iPhone to the local PD, but nothing will be done about it. It's just reality.

So it really comes back to strategies that will discourage or prevent thefts to begin with, or at least make thefts less likely because doing so will be "not worth the risk or effort" for the thief.
 
Are you willing to bet your life and the fate of our nation on that assertion?

Yes.

And you know why? Because the mandate isn't for a specific technology. Only that the manufacturer provides a way to remote wipe and shut down a smartphone. In case you haven't read the article, iOS7 and Apple's TouchID are considered complaint.

Why would the government want to wipe all the info off your cellphone? The NSA? They want your info! They don't want to get rid of it! What good will destroying all your info do if you've been talking to Habib McTaliban the Islamic Radical Terrorist? They won't have anything to incriminate you with if they do that! They'd be shooting themselves in their own foot!

This is simply a safety feature. Were you stupid enough to put your social security number in your reminders app? Well, now you don't have to worry about it if someone steals your phone.

Listen, I can understand being weary about some things. But paranoia for the sake of paranoia is nothing more than political masturbation, and doesn't do anyone any good.
 
Are you willing to bet your life and the fate of our nation on that assertion?

How's the campaign against the comedy speed limit which forces every driver on the Washington beltway (for example) to break the law every day? That's far more of an affront to freedom.
 

Well I'm not. Keep reading to find out why.

And you know why? Because the mandate isn't for a specific technology. Only that the manufacturer provides a way to remote wipe and shut down a smartphone. In case you haven't read the article, iOS7 and Apple's TouchID are considered complaint.

Yes, and as we all now know, the NSA has a backdoor into every major corporation's systems. Which means that the Federal Government could shut down any and all such iOS devices at will. Expanding these requirements (which you don't actually know the details of yet, and we likely won't ever) will mean every new device can as well.

Why would the government want to wipe all the info off your cellphone? The NSA? They want your info! They don't want to get rid of it! What good will destroying all your info do if you've been talking to Habib McTaliban the Islamic Radical Terrorist? They won't have anything to incriminate you with if they do that! They'd be shooting themselves in their own foot!

Wow, where to even start? Everything that's on your phone, every call you've made, every email you've sent, every text, every picture, EVERYTHING - they already have it. ALL of it, permanently stored in a MASSIVE data center. They don't NEED your phone, they've already gotten every bit of your life that's been lived through it.... however YOU might need your phone to battle a tyrannical government.

This is simply a safety feature. Were you stupid enough to put your social security number in your reminders app? Well, now you don't have to worry about it if someone steals your phone.

Sure you do. A smart thief will put that phone in a brass mesh to sever the connection to the world, then use a USB connection to hack the data on the phone, clone its numbers, reformat it, and sell it. ...and thieves are not stupid.

Listen, I can understand being weary about some things. But paranoia for the sake of paranoia is nothing more than political masturbation, and doesn't do anyone any good.

Wary, I think you mean. It's less about paranoia and more about simple insurance. Don't open the door for disasters to happen. The government is already immensely powerful, centralizing the control over mobile communications devices makes them MORE powerful, and opens the door to abuses - and we're talking worst case scenarios here, I'm sure there will be plenty of smaller problems that arise as well - peoples' phones being accidentally wiped, shut down without warrants, etc.
 

Which means that no matter how you look at it, no matter what you do, if you use a smartphone, you're ****ed. And since we're already ****ed, we might as well get ****ed some more by a feature that at least has the side effect of protecting our private information from thieves.

I'm not going to limit my options for my own security simply because of what the NSA could do with it. Instead, I'll take the nice feature, then gripe about the NSA being entirely unnecessary, completely dangerous, and bad for the country as a whole.
 
Which means that no matter how you look at it, no matter what you do, if you use a smartphone, you're ****ed. And since we're already ****ed, we might as well get ****ed some more by a feature that at least has the side effect of protecting our private information from thieves.

I'm not going to limit my options for my own security simply because of what the NSA could do with it. Instead, I'll take the nice feature, then gripe about the NSA being entirely unnecessary, completely dangerous, and bad for the country as a whole.

That's fine, and if that's what you want, under our current system, you can CHOOSE a device that offers that feature to you. What's being proposed is a MANDATE that FORCES EVERY device to have that feature. ...and I oppose that mandate.
 
That's fine, and if that's what you want, under our current system, you can CHOOSE a device that offers that feature to you. What's being proposed is a MANDATE that FORCES EVERY device to have that feature. ...and I oppose that mandate.

Why do you care so much?

What other issues are you politically active about?
 
That's fine, and if that's what you want, under our current system, you can CHOOSE a device that offers that feature to you. What's being proposed is a MANDATE that FORCES EVERY device to have that feature. ...and I oppose that mandate.

But like I said, it's a mandate that only inconveniences the manufacturers. For you, it's entirely opt-in. You've got the option, but you don't have to use. Though I bet you would if your phone were stolen.

As for the potential abuses by the NSA, it doesn't give them any more power than what they already have. Let's assume for a moment that this is yet another way for them to exert control over you. What do they get from wiping your phone? For someone just exercising their right to free speech, it's a minor inconvenience. They get their phone wiped and bricked by the NSA, they take it to their local Apple Store to get it fixed, then the employees there say they can or can't for various reasons. All it ends up doing is annoying people, which would give them even more reason to bitch about the NSA. They're still walking around free. They still have access to multiple computers. If you're some political dissident they want to shut down, they'd get better results going after your Facebook, Twitter, and/or Google+ accounts.

If there's a political protest going on, and everyone is organizing via text and voice, they're not going to shut down everyone's phones individually. They're going to kill the cell towers.

So it doesn't actually provide the NSA with anything that could be considered truly damaging to you and your freedoms. But it does protect your information from thieves, and that's why I'm all for it.
 
But like I said, it's a mandate that only inconveniences the manufacturers.

That is quite naive if you think manufacturers don't pass costs down to the consumer either directly via hardware or service price hikes or indirectly by using inferior parts to compensate for the mandated feature.

Sometimes these mandated requirements are clearly in the public interest -- air bags or center brake lights, for example. But here we are talking about anti-theft for not just $600 iPhones but also $99 low end pay go Androids, and of course, it won't save a single life. Why not mandate anti-theft devices for cars and burglar alarms for homes too and require GPS tags in all children's clothing -- heck clothing can be removed so lets embed the chip in kids at birth? I can think of a billion other well meaning but bad public policy ideas.
 
Earn your forum name easily do ya.

Yes, they are needlessly in your face here.

Let competition determine features, not needless regulation.


Sounds like nothing more than conservative talking points sprinkled with Libertarian fairy dust.
 
That is quite naive if you think manufacturers don't pass costs down to the consumer either directly via hardware or service price hikes or indirectly by using inferior parts to compensate for the mandated feature.

Sometimes these mandated requirements are clearly in the public interest -- air bags or center brake lights, for example. But here we are talking about anti-theft for not just $600 iPhones but also $99 low end pay go Androids, and of course, it won't save a single life. Why not mandate anti-theft devices for cars and burglar alarms for homes too and require GPS tags in all children's clothing -- heck clothing can be removed so lets embed the chip in kids at birth? I can think of a billion other well meaning but bad public policy ideas.

How much is this really going to cost?
 
So what you're saying is that you really don't have an informed opinion on anything, just a bunch of rhetoric bouncing around in your head that you spew out when certain criteria is met in a conversation.

Thanks for posting this. It saved me from wasting my time with you.

God...I can't help myself.

Are you really that thick skulled that you continue to ignore the flawed logic of your position here as it pertains to the freedom of choice of both individuals and producers alike?



BECAUSE IT'S NOT DESIGNED TO BE BRICKED BY A THIRD PARTY! IT'S AN OPTION AVAILABLE TO YOU THAT'S TIED TO YOUR GODDAMN ACCOUNT!

iTunes isn't designed to allow my info to be stolen by a third party, but it happens, doesn't it?

The point is that the mechanism is there and can be unlocked both willingly and unwillingly.

Stop siding with democrats because you are one and start thinking about the ramifications of violating the freedoms of individuals to do what they want.

Think critically instead of just supporting blanket legislation because you think it does more good than bad.

I'm done with you. I'll let everyone else go back and read both positions at this point.
 
GPS tags in all children's clothing -- heck clothing can be removed so lets embed the chip in kids at birth? .

That pretty much sums up the endgame of government over reach and "for your own good" policies and practices.

This is why I resist all of these attempts by the government to step into my life and be my mother or father.

They already are into health care. I have to apply, pay a fee and get licensed to do just about anything. Clearly defined constitutional rights are being infringed (for our own good they say) and require permits to exercise.

In the end, the government is just going to need to put a traceable mark on us so they know where we're at, what were doing so that they can "keep us safe". Heck, just tie our bank accounts to it so no one can buy or trade without this mark. Freedom though control! YAY!
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.